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Decca Tree Center Microphone
Old 11th September 2012
  #1
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Decca Tree Center Microphone

Hello,
I was wondering if the centre microphone of a decca tree
has to be the same as left and right mic.
perhaps it's a stupid question.
I'm thinking that it's not a problem at all, am i right ?
In my case i can have only two M150, so i'm wondering
what can be used as center microphone.
It's the first time i will use a decca tree setup.
Is there, from your experience, any central microphone that would work better than others with the M150.
It is a wind ensemble recording.
Thank you for sharing.
cyril
Old 11th September 2012
  #2
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
A true decca tree will have the same microphone in the center as it will have on the sides. That being said, there is also a history of decca trees where the center mics have been swapped out for others. I have changed out the center for a stereo pair a number of times and it works pretty well in some rooms.

So do what you need to and don't worry about what is "right" and what isn't. If it sounds good, do it.

--Ben
Old 12th September 2012
  #3
Gear Addict
 
audibell's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I wouldn't be a puritan about this. If you rent a Neumann SDC omni with an sbk130 sphere attached, it's a reasonable substitute for the small diaphragm embedded in a sphere in the 150. It's not identical but as Ben says, "If it sounds good, do it"

The center mic won't predominate anyway and a stereo mic placed on the center leg can pull in the back row of a large ensemble when needed.

You may find that the m150s as a spaced pair, with a stereo pair deeper into the ensemble works better than the tree without spots or flankers.
good luck
WalterT
Old 12th September 2012
  #4
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Thank you very much for your answers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthcircle ➑️

So do what you need to and don't worry about what is "right" and what isn't. If it sounds good, do it.

--Ben
Thank you for that !
I need experimentation !


From your experiences,
the center microphone, if it is not the same as left and right,
It will also need to get more directional in the upper frequencies ?

This directional characteristic is for the stereo effect rather than for the center? isn't it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by audibell ➑️

You may find that the m150s as a spaced pair, with a stereo pair deeper into the ensemble works better than the tree without spots or flankers.
good luck

WalterT
Thank you for this idea
Can you explain ?
Where would you put this stereo pair in the ensemble ?
What Stereo technique would use for that ?


Thank you
cyril
Old 12th September 2012
  #5
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
There are unlimited possibilities on an array based on a decca tree. One that I am experimenting with is a very wide 21/8 mid-side with a Sonodore omni and sf-1 mono pickups from different positions on the orchestra, the sf-1 in front of and the omni looking down in the middle of the orchestra. It is related to decca tree in an abtract way.
Old 12th September 2012
  #6
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Plush's Avatar
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
A Decca tree is very difficult to use and to position. Often it is a poor choice for anything other than a very large ensemble. Most of the time people put it too far away from the ensemble. The side mics should already be set up in to the vln / cello sections. It is NOT set up in front of the sections but rather IN the sections.

Any quality real omni mic can be used in the center. Don't use a switchable pattern omni but instead a single diaphragm omni. You may have to add some sparkle eq to the mic.
Old 12th September 2012
  #7
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
I agree that there are no hard and fast rules, although the "classic" is with three M50s or 150s.

I know a prominent engineer in LA who often uses a 4011 for the center in a Decca Tree, especially in rooms that might be "too live" or if he wants to pull the woodwinds out just a touch.
Old 12th September 2012
  #8
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Every summer, I do a major music festival here in LA. I almost always hang a tree in the center because of the flexibility that it gives me for the job. I've put lots of different mics on it ranging from Schoeps MK21 to DPA 4006 (with 50mm APE spheres). I don't generally use tube mics there because of the cable runs- just too long for many mics.

What I like about the tree is that the center mic can be used in so many ways. When I have a vocalist with a piano, I'll take the center mic and lower the level by 12dB. When I have a full orchestra, the center mic is at 3 dB down. This past year, I put a wide spaced (about 14" or so) pair of MK21 schoeps in the center. In some respects it worked very well and others, not so much. When using a pair in the center, make sure that you have a stage sound that you want to capture. In this case, the stage's shell didn't sound so great and I wasn't thrilled with the stereo pair.

As for the center mic- use what you have. Sure it is nice for it to be more directional at high frequencies- you'll get a bit more "dig" into the back of your group and in general a bit more focus to the sound. With an omni, you'll probably have a slightly lower level on that mics because you won't need as much to fill the hole...

As I said, just use what you have and make it sound good. There aren't rules- just guidelines, and sometimes they don't work. Just make a good sounding recording- if it doesn't sound good, then diagnose and improve.

--Ben
Old 15th September 2012
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Adebar's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by charrison ➑️
Hello,
I was wondering if the centre microphone of a decca tree
has to be the same as left and right mic.
perhaps it's a stupid question.
I'm thinking that it's not a problem at all, am i right ?
In my case i can have only two M150, so i'm wondering
what can be used as center microphone.
It's the first time i will use a decca tree setup.
Is there, from your experience, any central microphone that would work better than others with the M150.
It is a wind ensemble recording.
Thank you for sharing.
cyril
I could imagine the Josephson C700S as perfect center mic. You have the pressure SD capsule and can add the front figure eight capsule for directivity in the frequency range you like. With the third side capsule you can even do something for better integration together with the M150 pair - or use the M150 a little differently to a typical Decca Tree.
At least you have a lot of possibilities with the 3 capsules of the C700S.
Old 27th November 2012 | Show parent
  #10
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush ➑️
Don't use a switchable pattern omni but instead a single diaphragm omni.

What about switchable like KSM141?

DG
Old 27th November 2012 | Show parent
  #11
Lives for gear
 
mpdonahue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgpretzel ➑️
What about switchable like KSM141?
DG
The KSM141 is a single diaphragm omni and is actually a very nice sounding mic.
You could do far worse than to use a set of 3 KSM141 with 30 or 40 mm rubber washers instead of balls.
However, I would tend to agree with Hudson that most folks don't have the slightest idea how to use the system and fail to use their ears to make the appropriate adjustments
All the best,
-mark
Old 28th November 2012
  #12
Lives for gear
 
sonare's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
to the OP-- IMO you want the blended sound of an ensemble and (from a musical POV) very rarely want the ability to increase focus on one section only of a wind ensemble. Not like an orchestra.

Might I suggest you KISS and use your M150 pair in 1mA-B first? The hall will tell you when you are at the right distance in front of the group.

Rich
Old 3rd December 2012 | Show parent
  #13
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpdonahue ➑️
You could do far worse than to use a set of 3 KSM141 with 30 or 40 mm rubber washers instead of balls.
Do you possibly have a source for this type of washer? I have KSM141s, and I've been thinking about using them on a tree.
Old 3rd December 2012
  #14
Lives for gear
 
sonare's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Try the internet-- 40mm OD and inner D = the diameter of the mic-- 20mm? I recall seeing that Schoeps is once again supplying the 934 capsule rings. You could try that-- except that they're probably $50 each!

Rich
Old 3rd December 2012
  #15
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Just regular old washers? Like plumbing washers??
Old 4th December 2012
  #16
Gear Nut
 
cschreppel's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I tend to use Decca's on larger ensembles and regularly experiment with directional mics in the center as well as an M/S pair. I've done 4006 omnis on the sides with a 4011 in the middle, but I've had a ton of luck with Sennheiser MKH8020 omni on the sides with a Schoeps Mk21 up the middle.

Jordan Hall in Boston, MA (where I work) gives us plenty of great ambience that the omni sides pick up really well, so I've been favoring something a bit more directional up the middle to give me extra reach for the back of the ensembles.
Old 9th December 2012
  #17
Lives for gear
 
Gaston69's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Replaced B&K4006 for DPA 4006 A, in Decca Tree

I started in the first place with A/B Bruel & Kjaer 4006, then I had the opportunity to purchase a DPA surround mount which I use in a Decca Tree config however couldn't find a second hand B&K 4006, so I purchased the DPA 2006 for the center mic however I wasn't very please so saved money and replaced the capsule on the DPA 2006 with a 4006 capsule however there was still a huge difference in the output as the B&K are transformers preamps and DPA (A) series are transformer less. So I sold the B&K 4006 and purchased a matched pair DPA 4006 A i.e. my DECCA TREE has now 3 equal microphones and have to admit it makes a difference, I have a lot more bottom end and everything sounds more detailed. Here an example

https://soundcloud.com/acoustic-musi...-b-for/s-nWvrI
Old 9th December 2012 | Show parent
  #18
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by srscpa ➑️
Just regular old washers? Like plumbing washers??
Yes nothing too fancy, check this thread: https://gearspace.com/board/remote-p...ure-rings.html
Old 12th December 2012 | Show parent
  #19
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➑️
Yes nothing too fancy, check this thread: https://gearspace.com/board/remote-p...ure-rings.html
Thanks studer58!
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