Originally Posted by andrew montreal ➡️

What?!? That is a special approach. Very intrigued as I have never tried that.

Originally Posted by king2070lplaya ➡️

I just cannot fathom, in the course of getting ready for a session, musicians practicing, photographer and label people hanging around, that an engineer would get sounds, then literally move their mics from their optimal placements, announce it was ok to take photos, and then after some amount of time kicking the photogs out, putting mics back, checking sounds, all just before tracking. It would be a huge waste of time and not something I can see musicians, label people or photographers paying/hanging around for.

Originally Posted by king2070lplaya ➡️

I just cannot fathom, in the course of getting ready for a session, musicians practicing, photographer and label people hanging around, that an engineer would get sounds, then literally move their mics from their optimal placements, announce it was ok to take photos, and then after some amount of time kicking the photogs out, putting mics back, checking sounds, all just before tracking. It would be a huge waste of time and not something I can see musicians, label people or photographers paying/hanging around for.

Maybe he was secretive in talking about techniques in interviews; I imagine that these photos for the labels were tightly controlled enough that RVG wasn’t worried copycats would be able to Google them and copy the placements. Maybe he had it worked out with them at the time not to use photos of mics for ads or album art. But given the sounds he got and these placements which seem to reasonably correlate (especially the piano placement/sound) I am pretty sure that all of these photos show his actual mic placement techniques.

Originally Posted by princeplanet ➡️

Haha, very late to the party here (I stopped posting here years ago...), but being a longtime fan of Rudy's work I thought I'd chip in with some thoughts. RVG's legacy was (is) a triumph of attitude over technique, back in the day you either "got" his sound, or preferred someone with more respect for fidelity, or "naturalness" (like Roy DuNann). Whatever floats yer boat. But some of the earlier comments from years ago - which I'm still hearing now - make me feel certain that most are way off the mark if they think Rudy feared people would "steal" his sound if he gave his methods away.

He would have known all along that you cannot emulate his artistry by learning about his tools, any more than a young aspiring painter might hope to learn how to be the next Picasso because he was shown what paints, brushes and canvasses the great master used. It's about the ability to have a unique "concept" - It's how you hear it , and what you do to bring that concept to the fore, through thousands of little decisions (like every single brushstroke) in the course of each day at work. It's about "TASTE". It's way more than this mic in that position through this outboard pushed hard to this tape machine and pushed again into the cutting lathe. It's way more nuanced than that, to the point that all you flunkies that think you can pull that sound with his old rig are simply dreaming. He's pulling a "feeling", not just a "sound", and you can't teach that. Capish?

So why be so guarded about it then? Well, it's not because he thought people could do the RVG thing for themselves, but because he knew that they might "think" they can. How does this hurt him? Well, people who think they have the secrets will try to make records with said secrets and take years before realising they're not sounding quite right. They'll tell artists and labels they have the same equipment and techniques as RVG but will charge less, leaving some to feel that they could get the same sound for less money. Until they too realise they can't.

This realisation takes years, and can mean the likes of RVG must wait for years before artists and labels to return to him. Life is too short to lose customers for a decade or two while they chase a cheaper way to get "that sound". It's not insecurity that makes these guys secretive, but knowing human nature well enough to know that a fool will hurt the originator's business of working with the best artists by convincing people that the it's the gear that makes the sound.

Look, the artists don't know. The labels don't know. And the wannabe's may never know (despite years of trying). But Rudy, well, he always knew ...

Oh, and if you don't like the Blue Note / RVG sound, I have a theory about you guys too. A theory decades in the making, free of any confirmation bias (i promise) and so consistently unfailing that it's as close to a certainty as anything else I think I know , and it's this - if you don't dig the RVG vibe, it's because you're just .not. cool.

Sorry.

Originally Posted by M50k ➡️

Slight tangent - while searching for the VG photos I came across this gem showing a peek at the 30th St. console:

Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️

So did the myth arise simply from a perceived credibility mismatch between the photographed mic locations and the sounds resulting on the records….or was RVG notorious for vagueness or outright refusal to discuss mic use and placements, and thus the myth of intentional concealment and deception was conceived as a response ?

Originally Posted by princeplanet ➡️

Haha, very late to the party here (I stopped posting here years ago...), but being a longtime fan of Rudy's work I thought I'd chip in with some thoughts. RVG's legacy was (is) a triumph of attitude over technique, back in the day you either "got" his sound, or preferred someone with more respect for fidelity, or "naturalness" (like Roy DuNann). Whatever floats yer boat. But some of the earlier comments from years ago - which I'm still hearing now - make me feel certain that most are way off the mark if they think Rudy feared people would "steal" his sound if he gave his methods away.

He would have known all along that you cannot emulate his artistry by learning about his tools, any more than a young aspiring painter might hope to learn how to be the next Picasso because he was shown what paints, brushes and canvasses the great master used. It's about the ability to have a unique "concept" - It's how you hear it , and what you do to bring that concept to the fore, through thousands of little decisions (like every single brushstroke) in the course of each day at work. It's about "TASTE". It's way more than this mic in that position through this outboard pushed hard to this tape machine and pushed again into the cutting lathe. It's way more nuanced than that, to the point that all you flunkies that think you can pull that sound with his old rig are simply dreaming. He's pulling a "feeling", not just a "sound", and you can't teach that. Capish?

So why be so guarded about it then? Well, it's not because he thought people could do the RVG thing for themselves, but because he knew that they might "think" they can. How does this hurt him? Well, people who think they have the secrets will try to make records with said secrets and take years before realising they're not sounding quite right. They'll tell artists and labels they have the same equipment and techniques as RVG but will charge less, leaving some to feel that they could get the same sound for less money. Until they too realise they can't.

This realisation takes years, and can mean the likes of RVG must wait for years before artists and labels to return to him. Life is too short to lose customers for a decade or two while they chase a cheaper way to get "that sound". It's not insecurity that makes these guys secretive, but knowing human nature well enough to know that a fool will hurt the originator's business of working with the best artists by convincing people that the it's the gear that makes the sound.

Look, the artists don't know. The labels don't know. And the wannabe's may never know (despite years of trying). But Rudy, well, he always knew ...

Oh, and if you don't like the Blue Note / RVG sound, I have a theory about you guys too. A theory decades in the making, free of any confirmation bias (i promise) and so consistently unfailing that it's as close to a certainty as anything else I think I know , and it's this - if you don't dig the RVG vibe, it's because you're just .not. cool.

Sorry.

Originally Posted by 2xUeL ➡️

Hello! I agree with most of what you said here, although I do feel his secrecy may have in part been due to a little insecurity about not being formally trained in electrical engineering, as most of his contemporaries in his field were. Maureen Sickler gave me an off-the-record "nod" on this as well, just agreeing that it's possible this was the case.

Another reason for the secrecy had to do with the fact that he wanted everyone to focus on the artistry of the musicians and producers, and by constantly deflecting questions about technique, this was one way in which he demonstrated a selflessness that was at the core of his being...quite beautiful, actually.

Originally Posted by princeplanet ➡️

Maybe in the early days, but I don't think he would have suffered any case of "Impostor Syndrome" for very long. Having massive success with the world's best Jazz artists would have helped overcome any feeling of inadequacy!

Originally Posted by 2xUeL ➡️

I think it's important to keep in mind that this is all speculation, my comments included.

Originally Posted by princeplanet ➡️

For sure. One might also speculate that by being secretive his intention was to ensure that people like us would be discussing him for perhaps decades to come. Mystique has a way of ensuring ongoing speculation...

Originally Posted by M50k ➡️

A source of confusion about all of this is, people rarely make the distinction in these anecdotes between when he was working at his parents' house vs in his own studio in Englewood Cliffs; lots changed at that point, such as the move from LDCs to almost exclusively SDCs.

Originally Posted by king2070lplaya ➡️

I just cannot fathom, in the course of getting ready for a session, musicians practicing, photographer and label people hanging around, that an engineer would get sounds, then literally move their mics from their optimal placements, announce it was ok to take photos, and then after some amount of time kicking the photogs out, putting mics back, checking sounds, all just before tracking. It would be a huge waste of time and not something I can see musicians, label people or photographers paying/hanging around for.

Originally Posted by 2xUeL ➡️

Hello! I agree with most of what you said here, although I do feel his secrecy may have in part been due to a little insecurity about not being formally trained in electrical engineering, as most of his contemporaries in his field were. Maureen Sickler gave me an off-the-record "nod" on this as well, just agreeing that it's possible this was the case.

Originally Posted by kludgeaudio ➡️

And yet, he did exactly that, much to the dismay of the people who worked with him and who were severely inconvenienced.

Susan Stamberg's anecdote about how he destroyed her cassette tape because she clapped her hands in an interview with him is hilarious. It doesn't get any more paranoid than that.
--scott

Originally Posted by dirker ➡️

This assumption that recording sessions in days past were like ones today, where random label people & photographers would just show up and hang around, is just not accurate. Professional photographers were paid well, and hired/scheduled well in advance. Often photo shoots were like video shoots today - pretend sessions for the cameras, not an interruption of actual recording. They might take place before or after sessions, or on completely separate days. But, especially in one-studio operations like Rudy's, there would rarely be any extra people allowed when serious recording was meant to be taking place. This was well before the era of rock stars treating sessions like parties that the producer & engineer had to tolerate.
And it's been noted in many places that Rudy preferred a dim/dark studio, which would not have yielded candid photos that are so bright while also having depth of field and lack of motion blur.