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Classical music recording....
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #211
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Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #212
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2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
"Mama don't allow no popcorn eatin' 'round here..."
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #213
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson ➡️
"Mama don't allow no popcorn eatin' 'round here..."
Joel, your lack of ego and no-nonsense approach is refreshing. I enjoy reading your posts.
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #214
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David Rick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
On credentials and trolls

Folks, this fellow is obviously a troll. He may have engineering credits (or not -- who can tell?), but he's chosen to ignore the most important cultural norm of this forum, which is that we try to help one another make better recordings. Until he gets with that agenda, I don't really care who he is, or what opinions he spouts.

Contrast this with Benjamin Maas. Ben is a successful engineer who has made a name for himself in a very tough market, but his reputation here rests on his willingness to openly discuss his ideas and working methods with others who aspire to improve their craft. I think that is the essence of Steve Remote's vision for this forum.

Like it or not, the old apprenticeship model for how to learn audio engineering has been dashed on the rocks of the new economy. Forums like this are the closest many aspiring engineers will ever get to learning from a skilled mentor. It doesn't bother me that some who post here are more skilled than others, or that not all advice offered here comes with footnotes and pedigrees. I trust that a dilligent student of the recording arts will learn to sort the wheat from the chaff. We need to all hope for that, because the future of our industry depends on it.

The economics of the music industry dictate that many audio engineers will continue to have day jobs. Personally, I've made my peace with that. After all, it was good enough for John Eargle, Siegfried Linkwitz, and Richard Heyser.

As an aside, I'll say that I've chosen to use my real name on everything I've posted online for the past twenty years. I use the same name on album credits as I do for political essays and patents. I like to think that it encourages me to behave better, and anyone who decides that my opinions are worthless will have an easy time ignoring me. For some readers, the reverse may be true.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #215
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d_fu's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush ➡️
Check the new production from my mentor, Teije van Geest.
ECM Records--Arvo Part: In Principio
Does it sound similar to the "Litany" recording from '95 (also Pärt & TvG)? If so, then I know what you mean, the sound is quite amazing (even though IIRC there's a slight hum somewhere - people should use phones more often... heh)
Will definitely get hold of this new one at some point, too.
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #216
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Ok thanks for the comments (those who did).

"2 mics stuck somewhere", surely this is the basis of any recording?

Nonetheless, valueless comments aside (such as the above quoted)

Thanks Benjamin I saw the angle of the NT1A's and became scared and toed them in a bit, just shy of 90 degrees.

Secondly I cannot currently understand how angle would have changed relative balance between the "prominent" first violins.
(ahh I think the penny has dropped.... not stereo spread angle but angled to the rear of the musicians?)

Also I am fairly good at diplomacy with the in house engineers but this guy was
trying to rush me somewhat and I felt he would have been peed off if I was asking him to lower the truss 2-3 maybe more times. How would you have dealt with that? Sure I need to make a good recording but there are limits determined by first impressions as to how far you can request assistance when they are not on my payroll.

I am not convinced omni's would have been right, the acoustic was not great IMO
and more of this + audience noise would have been on mic axis.

There are practical limitations, bar width, truss use, acoustic, truss height and distance, audience not wanting the tall stand in fron of the musicians, I did not feel I had the power to change these elements.

I am still happy with the resultant sound considering these constraints.
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #217
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick ➡️
Folks, this fellow is obviously a troll. He may have engineering credits (or not -- who can tell?), but he's chosen to ignore the most important cultural norm of this forum, which is that we try to help one another make better recordings. Until he gets with that agenda, I don't really care who he is, or what opinions he spouts.

Contrast this with Benjamin Maas. Ben is a successful engineer who has made a name for himself in a very tough market, but his reputation here rests on his willingness to openly discuss his ideas and working methods with others who aspire to improve their craft. I think that is the essence of Steve Remote's vision for this forum.

Like it or not, the old apprenticeship model for how to learn audio engineering has been dashed on the rocks of the new economy. Forums like this are the closest many aspiring engineers will ever get to learning from a skilled mentor. It doesn't bother me that some who post here are more skilled than others, or that not all advice offered here comes with footnotes and pedigrees. I trust that a dilligent student of the recording arts will learn to sort the wheat from the chaff. We need to all hope for that, because the future of our industry depends on it.

The economics of the music industry dictate that many audio engineers will continue to have day jobs. Personally, I've made my peace with that. After all, it was good enough for John Eargle, Siegfried Linkwitz, and Richard Heyser.

As an aside, I'll say that I've chosen to use my real name on everything I've posted online for the past twenty years. I use the same name on album credits as I do for political essays and patents. I like to think that it encourages me to behave better, and anyone who decides that my opinions are worthless will have an easy time ignoring me. For some readers, the reverse may be true.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording
+1

On the ball there David.
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #218
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John Willett's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by XLR2XLR ➡️
"2 mics stuck somewhere", surely this is the basis of any recording?
Yes - but sticking them in the right place is the art. heh


Quote:
Originally Posted by XLR2XLR ➡️
I saw the angle of the NT1A's and became scared and toed them in a bit, just shy of 90 degrees.
Sounds like you should have left them at the ORTF angle of 110°. heh


But this is how we all learn - trying it - listening - finding the faults and doing it better next time.

Next time there will be different faults - so you sort those ..... etc.

When you stop hearing things that you could do better next time you are either too old or deaf. heh

Good luck.
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #219
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by XLR2XLR ➡️
Also I am fairly good at diplomacy with the in house engineers but this guy was
trying to rush me somewhat and I felt he would have been peed off if I was asking him to lower the truss 2-3 maybe more times. How would you have dealt with that? Sure I need to make a good recording but there are limits determined by first impressions as to how far you can request assistance when they are not on my payroll.

I am not convinced omni's would have been right, the acoustic was not great IMO
and more of this + audience noise would have been on mic axis.

There are practical limitations, bar width, truss use, acoustic, truss height and distance, audience not wanting the tall stand in fron of the musicians, I did not feel I had the power to change these elements.

I am still happy with the resultant sound considering these constraints.
I found the whole thing a touch close, but a commendable attempt. I found the harpsichord a touch loud - I've never heard one that loud in real life (many hundreds of concert attendances as well as recordings) - did you spot this? There were moments when it was more prominent than the trumpet.

Again, echoing the comments about mid-heaviness.

Re: the truss - one of the beauties of microphone stands is that you don't need any help to move them heh. Seriously though, if he's there to do a job and you're asking him to do it, why should he be bitter? Unless you're taking the piss they nearly always understand. If they don't want to help . . . bring a mic stand next time. In house technicians normally (IMHO) don't book the recording team, so don't worry about pissing them off sacrificing the next booking - you're more likely to do that by putting out a recording you're not happy with. Also, I find most audiences pretty accommodating of a single stand behind conductor's position - as much as anything plenty people want to buy the record having seen it the event recorded 'properly' (i.e. the equipment looked fancy and heavy - no reflection on actual quality!).

Why not put up a spare pair of omnis (with a view to rejecting them!) on your next recording? Personally I find audience noise to be less of a problem with early and contemporary musics as the audiences are less likely to be casual (read: blue rinse) and more likely to be younger, more informed and less likely to cough.

A well placed M-S pair would be my thought for next time - that way the width can be controlled after the fact - along with a pair of omni flanks. Do you have access to an NT2-A or other microphone that can produce fig-8 patterns? Remember, the microphones do not have to be matched for M-S.

Do you go to listen to (classical music) concerts regularly?

Why did you choose 88.2 and 48khz for the machines? Why not 48 and 96, or 44.1 and 88.2?

MohThoM
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #220
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d_fu's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by XLR2XLR ➡️
"2 mics stuck somewhere", surely this is the basis of any recording?(...)
I am still happy with the resultant sound considering these constraints.
What I meant was that setting up two mics in some kind of ORTF-ish configuration and not too far from the source will yield a half-decent result.
Obviously, the recording isn't altogether bad, considering what it is (and maybe considering the hall, too). If it's an internal archival recording, fine, but if it were something that an ensemble would want to sell, I wouldn't consider it sufficient (too dry, not well balanced etc.).

If the customer is happy and will hire you again, consider yourself lucky as well, because you've got a "playground" for further experimentation and improvement.

Did you listen while adjusting the mic angle? What was the distance between the mics (sorry if I overlooked that)?

D.
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #221
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
This has gone way to far and I apologize that I didn't step in any earlier.

I was away from the board for a half a day and everything went haywire.

First of all, dare I say it -- Every one is equal in this forum...

The apprentices, the journeymen and masters.
Each and every one of us is an important part of this discussion group.
We all can learn from each other, especially when we play nice.

Besides that, there are many more masters on this board than Plush and me.

Keep in mind Wotan is not a new member; He's an old member that has reappeared without stating his true identity.

I'm not going to publicly say who he is at this point in time.
I want him to state his name and explain why he has pushed his way on to these threads like a military tank.

I would defend Wotan in a minute, but he has made it impossible for me to do.
I don't understand why Wotan has hit the beach so hard.
If you look at his old posts you would see that it really is not where he came from.

Is there anyway Wotan can go back to the awesome guy we all remembered?

I truly do not want to ban Wotan from this website, especially since I know that he is capabile of being a great guy!!

Please for the sake of this forum let just get this right!
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #222
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness ➡️
........

Keep in mind Wotan is not a new member; He's an old member that has reappeared without stating his true identity.

I'm not going to publicly say who he is at this point in time.
I want him to state his name and explain why he has pushed his way on to these threads like a military tank.

I would defend Wotan in a minute, but he has made it impossible for me to do.
I don't understand why Wotan has hit the beach so hard.
If you look at his old posts you would see that it really is not where he came from.

.......
Thanks Steve,

From what you say and reading between the lines; it sounds a bit like the reaction I would expect from a totally pi**ed off professional who has just lost his job to some inexperienced beginner because "he's cheaper".

Happening in the UK all the time now, unfortunately, where it's cheaper to get some trainee to "do the sound" - forgetting all the extra costs of trying to sort out the resultant mess in post.
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #223
29327
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by XLR2XLR ➡️
Ok point accepted, how do you do that when there is a limitation on height
or distance (in a theatre). There is a point where practical limits come into play I think.

A truss is really in the position of a truss in tersm of distance, it is immoveable from it's resident position.

I don't now how I could have got around it's position really.
Try using breasting line. Simply tie a bit of fishing line to the mic cable a 30-50cm above the mic and then pull the entire fly backwards from the stage. Tie off and you're good to go!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotan ➡️
Mr. Maas is young, therefore he cannot be a master...
Yeah, Richard King is just a young whipper snapper, too...
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #224
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NetworkAudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
As I think there is some valuable discourse in this thread, I ask that Steve step in and edit the thread.
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #225
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David Rick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Sight or sound?

OK, back to topic at hand, which seems to be how to enable better placements in the face of venue restrictions on sight lines.

Look at a few of the photos I've posted here in the past, and you'll see that I basically get away with murder on mic stands in sight lines. One thing that helps is that the radio audience is huge compared to the live one. But I understand that many gigs come with such serious restrictions on stand placement that one needs to fly the mics or risk a bad recording.

I haven't figured out how to do this economically -- it seems to require a lot of time and a crew member that I don't usually have. (I typically work alone.) Consequently, I've put a disclaimer on my rate card that the pricing is based on floor stands, and that flown rigs will require extra "per-hour" charges.

One strategy that might work is to use tall floor stands during rehearsal, decide where you want stuff, and then "make it so" using wires before the performance.

David
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #226
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Corran's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
That's a great idea to specify on your rates about flying mics and the extra time. I work alone usually as well.
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #227
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d_fu's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran ➡️
That's a great idea to specify on your rates about flying mics and the extra time. I work alone usually as well.
So do I. In some places, flown mics make life a lot easier, less cables, less time to take things down (just pull stereo bar in on the balcony), etc. But in principle, there is a point, even though I generally don't charge strictly per hour.
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #228
29327
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick ➡️
I haven't figured out how to do this economically -- it seems to require a lot of time and a crew member that I don't usually have. (I typically work alone.) Consequently, I've put a disclaimer on my rate card that the pricing is based on floor stands, and that flown rigs will require extra "per-hour" charges.
You're a genius! Why didn't I think of that. I've even had to turn a gig or two down due to sightline problems coupled with a lack of crew within the budget of the session...
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #229
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
David- that is a great idea. I should do something similar.

I like the look of flying mics, but there are issues in so many rooms with doing it. Here in LA, the vast majority of the halls and the vast majority of the performing ensembles don't have the facilities to deal with flying of mics.

I find the subject of aesthetics breaks down into a couple camps:

1. Groups and such that have a reputation and therefore certain aesthetic needs when they are in performance. It isn't my client, but one local orchestra performs outdoors in a huge venue and tries to keep a "no stand" look to the audience. They do this by flying mains and using DPA 4061 mics on the strings. All stands have right-angle XLR connectors to keep the look there as low profile as possible.

2. Groups and people with a delusion of grandeur. I find this most often with amateur ensembles and students. They don't want mics visible because they feel it distracts from their dress that they spent some huge sum of money on.

For groups that fit in the first category, they usually provide the resources to get mics in the air. They would rather have them positioned properly than have them invisible as the recordings are important to them. The fact that they are flown is usually enough for them.

For groups in the second category, I will provide the service to fly the mics only if they cough up the cash to pay for the extra time. Otherwise, I have a somewhat standard talk that I give on the subject of "Recordings that look good versus recordings that sound good." When presented with the facts on how mics work, they usually will decide that the "ugly" recording is the one they want. A year after the performance, they'll forget about the stand, but they will have the recording. My regular clients have pretty much been trained by now and they want me to do whatever it takes to make sure the recording sounds good.

--Ben
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #230
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d_fu's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLP ➡️
You're a genius! Why didn't I think of that. I've even had to turn a gig or two down due to sightline problems coupled with a lack of crew within the budget of the session...
Ever been booted from the stage just prior to the show because the conductor suddenly decided to dislike the mic stands' presence? Happened to me twice with the same person (I normally flew mics in the hall, but on these occasions, there was nothing else I could do).
Old 31st March 2009 | Show parent
  #231
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Of course one has to consider the sound but one element in selecting mics, and stands, for use in live performance has to be the visual one. Using a great big lump of a mic right on the audience sight line is no longer acceptable given the availabilty of viable low-profile alternatives. The audience has come to a concert, not a recording session.

I'm surprised that nobody (as far as I am aware) has developed tall mic stands using something like thin carbon fibre tubing, with sections which screw together. You'd have a kit of various lengths to achieve a required height. The sections would be internally wired in stereo, with an arrangement at the joins to pass the signal from one section to the next. At the top would be provision to mount and connect a pair of small mics. The base might provide for water-weighting. So the whole thing would be as inconspicuous as possible - a thin smooth vertical black line. But I guess such a thing would not be cheap...
Old 1st April 2009 | Show parent
  #232
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozpeter ➡️
I'm surprised that nobody (as far as I am aware) has developed tall mic stands using something like thin carbon fibre tubing, with sections which screw together. You'd have a kit of various lengths to achieve a required height. The sections would be internally wired in stereo, with an arrangement at the joins to pass the signal from one section to the next. At the top would be provision to mount and connect a pair of small mics. The base might provide for water-weighting. So the whole thing would be as inconspicuous as possible - a thin smooth vertical black line. But I guess such a thing would not be cheap...
Sounds like you are describing the boom poles that they use in the movie industry. It would be nice to see something like that for us concert/music folks. The boom poles that the film guys use, though, are very expensive. Most run about $1000 or so.

--Ben
Old 1st April 2009 | Show parent
  #233
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
"I'm surprised that nobody (as far as I am aware) has developed tall mic stands using something like thin carbon fibre tubing, with sections which screw together. You'd have a kit of various lengths to achieve a required height. The sections would be internally wired in stereo, with an arrangement at the joins to pass the signal from one section to the next. At the top would be provision to mount and connect a pair of small mics. The base might provide for water-weighting. So the whole thing would be as inconspicuous as possible - a thin smooth vertical black line. But I guess such a thing would not be cheap..." Ozpeter

The mic stands on the market are much heavier than they need to be. The rods build up in weight which is not practical, and the tightening fixtures are problematic as well. I have built telescoping stands out of carbon fiber which use those little round tightening metal strips from the hardware store (don't know what they are called) to hold the telescoping rods in place. The bases are light, but I hang a water weight bag to the bottom of the stand, bags which are normally used for traction patients in hospitals. I spray paint them black to look less noticable. So the weight of the base is adjustable by how much water is placed inside the weight bag, which can be much heavier than ever needed. There is no weight issue for transporting the stands to and from gigs... they weigh a couple of pounds, compared to a light 14' Shure stand which weighs around 6 pounds without any extra weights on the base. To put something like that together costs $100 to $150 including a used generic metal stand base.

The boom pole technology makes full use of the lightness and rigidity of
carbon fiber. The same or similar quality carbon fiber tubes can be ordered online fairly cheap. By calculating the internal to external size of the tubes, the tubes can fit and telescope into one another. They are very strong and not easily broken.

I have not found a place that sells carbon fiber hex rods, which would be
useful for building mic trees. I don't know if they are available.

There are some extremely lightweight mic stands out with an unusual design by Hamilton Stands, but they are too wobbly and unstable, and not very tall. Good though for low mic placement with lightweight mics. I think they are redesigning them with improvements. They are made with thin metal tubes.
Old 1st April 2009 | Show parent
  #234
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Interesting. I simply don't know whether there's something on the market with internal cabling (I guess stuff intended for on-camera TV use would be the most likely). Anything telescopic is bound to be fatter at the bottom than the top, hence the concept of screwing sections together so that there's no visible join or change of diameter from bottom to top. Handling the connection from section to section need be no more difficult than connecting a mic capsule to a body.
Old 1st April 2009 | Show parent
  #235
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Russell Dawkins's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
slimmest, lightest tall stands I know are sold by AEA:
Modular Microphone Stands – Products – AEA Big Ribbon Mics™ and Recording Tools
Old 1st April 2009 | Show parent
  #236
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozpeter ➡️
Anything telescopic is bound to be fatter at the bottom than the top...
It's also possible, and not difficult, to make telescopic stands that only consist
of two sizes of tubes, the ascending telescope alternating between the
two sizes, only limited in height by the strength of the material used. Stands
with this type of design can be much lighter since the two sizes of tubes can
be thin (not starting with a wide tube on the bottom with increasingly thinner
tubes as the stand ascends as in a traditional design). The lightness of this type of design has less buildup of overall weight from the tubes, which can help to make the stand more stable.

The lighter the ascending tubes are in relative to the weight of the base of
the stand, the less likely that the stand will fall over.
Old 1st April 2009 | Show parent
  #237
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
It's also possible, and not difficult, to make telescopic stands that only consist
of two sizes of tubes, the ascending telescope alternating between the
two sizes, only limited in height by the strength of the material used.
Surely a stand of this design has two issues - the first being how to connect the sections together rigidly enough. The second (according to your spec) is far more fundamental - surely a stand of this 'telescopic' design can only be collapse to half it's extended height!

Quote:
The lighter the ascending tubes are in relative to the weight of the base of
the stand, the less likely that the stand will fall over.
Something about the centre of gravity? Personally I'd feel safer with a steel tripod base with a large spread (mine are c. 2m at the base) and totally rigid tubing - the carbon fibre stands I've used have way too much play in them for a high placement of a heavy pair of LDCs - my stands don't (rated up to 40kg at 4m high - and that's before the boom!)

MohThoM
Old 1st April 2009 | Show parent
  #238
29327
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu ➡️
Ever been booted from the stage just prior to the show because the conductor suddenly decided to dislike the mic stands' presence? Happened to me twice with the same person (I normally flew mics in the hall, but on these occasions, there was nothing else I could do).
Wow! No, that's never happened to me (thankfully)... Things have always been pretty clear before the fact on my gigs. I'm hoping to keep it that way! thumbsup
Old 1st April 2009 | Show parent
  #239
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
The usual one for me is that I'm told that stands are too conspicuous - cue conversation about good looking vs good sounding recording etc. etc.

And then moments before FOH opens my beautifully concealed cabling and stand base is covered in masses of yellow and black hazard tape (which, contrary to the belief of venue staff DOES leave a lot of sticky residue . . .)!

Viva la Health and Safety Directive!
Old 1st April 2009 | Show parent
  #240
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Unhappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohthom ➡️
The usual one for me is that I'm told that stands are too conspicuous - cue conversation about good looking vs good sounding recording etc. etc.

And then moments before FOH opens my beautifully concealed cabling and stand base is covered in masses of yellow and black hazard tape (which, contrary to the belief of venue staff DOES leave a lot of sticky residue . . .)!

Viva la Health and Safety Directive!
I had this one when recording a live piano recital.

We had recorded pre-takes of some of the most difficult sections, just in case we needed to patch any mistakes.

Just before the concert the organiser instructed me to move the microphones.

No way out and I had to comply.

I moved them the smallest amount I could get away with and, in fact, the difference in position could not be heard in the final result - phew.

Not something I like having to do, though.
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