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Classical music recording....
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #91
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson ➑️
This thread is proof that even the insufferable will get a fair hearing. I don't know what you could ask for, beyond that.
Everything.

Last edited by audio ergo sum; 29th January 2009 at 03:12 PM.. Reason: Nam qui facit, quod non sapit...
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #92
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Plush's Avatar
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran ➑️


Fine, enjoy your rules. I still haven't heard what you think of the results of my techniques. Surely that is all that matters.
I don't care about your techniques or what you have written here in this thread.

What do I care about is suggesting that you get you and your gear out of the actual room where the music is played. Go backstage or in a closet. Then you may have a chance to hear balances and direct to room sound balances.

YOu're in school, so that means you still a fool.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #93
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hughesmr's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The S/N ratio in here is dropping fast. Ergo, I agree more with you than I do Joel, but could you please take the dfegading contest to PM? It adds nothing to the discussion.

Joel and I have had disagreements on here before, but they are respectful ... both he and I are delivering what our clients want, so what's the problem? If you want Joel's clients, move to Albany, look them up, and convince them that you know better and produce a better product.

We all bring our own tastes and preferences to the table.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #94
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Corran's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush ➑️
I don't care about your techniques or what you have written here in this thread.

What do I care about is suggesting that you get you and your gear out of the actual room where the music is played. Go backstage or in a closet. Then you may have a chance to hear balances and direct to room sound balances.

YOu're in school, so that means you still a fool.
Well first, thanks for the suggestion. As it happens, I am backstage occasionally but I prefer to watch the recital. For balance issues I usually record a snippet of the pre-concert warm-up and listen to it before the concert, which works fine.

Your comment about school is completely inane and unnecessary, so keep it to yourself next time please.

This really is getting ridiculous, so forget about it, or PM me if you wish.
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #95
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videoteque's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
This thread has gone tits up!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by klaukholm ➑️
That is Isis the doberman, she's my sweetie - here featured with a very sandy nose back when she was 3-4 months old. She now spends her time pinning 100lb rotweilers without effort.
Mine is Lola, is a female Dachshund / Teckel or in swedish Tax. She is six months old and have a pretty vivid and funny behaviour!!! I post the pics in the hope this thread calms down...
Attached Thumbnails
Classical music recording....-caterpillardog.jpg   Classical music recording....-whodidthis.jpg  
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #96
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NetworkAudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Here are a few including a puppy pic back when she was smaller than a Tax.
One sphynx like and elegant pic and one less decent and ladylike.
Attached Thumbnails
Classical music recording....-dsc00008.jpg   Classical music recording....-dsc00027.jpg   Classical music recording....-dsc00036.jpg   Classical music recording....-dsc00077.jpg  
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #97
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran ➑️
I'm getting the Sytek 4-channel pre.
Thanks for the extra pics.
The Sytek is nice. You might want to try the one with 2 channels of Burr Browns, for two flavors in one box.
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #98
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
When I think "classical" I think acoustic music. No amps, no electric guitars, no real need for spot mics. Just an audience perspective capture of the event, and the acoustic group takes care of all the rest. Probably not very applicable in modern incarnations. And/or paid scenarios.

Most of what everyone else is describing seems more like a production number. Isn't riding the faders, spot micing and other tricks just compensating for the gear, or the venue, or the group? I can understand it from a production stand point. i.e. Budget only allows for one on a part, where the arrangement was for sections on a part. But it didn't sound like that was what the OP was asked to do.

I consider myself more of a historian. I'm recording the event as it actually happened (not making the event happen). So section X is too soft to be heard by most of the audience. So the trumpets are in the wrong key. That was part of the event. And part of the appeal of a live recording IMO. And AFAIK, what the composer intended. But then again most of what I do is for archival / training purposes and relatively unpaid.
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #99
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Nothing more to add to audio part, but at least I have 4 dogs: white swiss shepherd, great poodle, papillon and portuguese water dog.
Attached Thumbnails
Classical music recording....-4_dogs.jpg  
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #100
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videoteque's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Cute dogs with the water-floats!!!

I have a ton of pictures of Lola in not "lady like" postures too!!!hehheh

We should start a Remote Dogs thread!!!!!thumbsup
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #101
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NetworkAudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by videoteque ➑️
Cute dogs with the water-floats!!!

I have a ton of pictures of Lola in not "lady like" postures too!!!hehheh

We should start a Remote Dogs thread!!!!!thumbsup
It's done!
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #102
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Corran's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow_7 ➑️
Most of what everyone else is describing seems more like a production number. Isn't riding the faders, spot micing and other tricks just compensating for the gear, or the venue, or the group? I can understand it from a production stand point. i.e. Budget only allows for one on a part, where the arrangement was for sections on a part. But it didn't sound like that was what the OP was asked to do.

I consider myself more of a historian. I'm recording the event as it actually happened (not making the event happen). So section X is too soft to be heard by most of the audience. So the trumpets are in the wrong key. That was part of the event. And part of the appeal of a live recording IMO. And AFAIK, what the composer intended. But then again most of what I do is for archival / training purposes and relatively unpaid.


Yeah this has been my viewpoint. There is a time and place for other stuff, but the reason for the thread probably was more to this end.

As for the Sytek, I haven't decided on the Burr Brown thing, sometimes I do LCR with three omnis so I would like to have 3 channels of the same tonality. But then, I don't know what would be better - with or without the BBs. I don't know if I want "colored" or just straight "wire with gain."
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #103
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d_fu's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow_7 ➑️
When I think "classical" I think acoustic music. No amps, no electric guitars, no real need for spot mics. Just an audience perspective capture of the event, and the acoustic group takes care of all the rest.
It's the old discussion about "natural" sound...

Quote:
Isn't riding the faders, spot micing and other tricks just compensating for the gear, or the venue, or the group?
No... I wouldn't say so.

Quote:
I can understand it from a production stand point. i.e. Budget only allows for one on a part, where the arrangement was for sections on a part.
That's definitely not what spot mics are used for...
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #104
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pkautzsch's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow_7 ➑️
Isn't riding the faders, spot micing and other tricks just compensating for the gear, or the venue, or the group?
Actually, it's compensating for the listener's stereo in the listener's living room where the listener can't see the orchestra.
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #105
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkautzsch ➑️
Actually, it's compensating for the listener's stereo in the listener's living room where the listener can't see the orchestra.
That is part of it. Mostly it is recording the interpretation of the composition not how it sounds at a certain spot in a room - compensating for lack of visuals or not - but how it probably sounded in the composers head when he wrote it. Now we will never know that but we can try to get there.
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #106
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow_7 ➑️
When I think "classical" I think acoustic music. No amps, no electric guitars, no real need for spot mics. Just an audience perspective capture of the event, and the acoustic group takes care of all the rest. Probably not very applicable in modern incarnations. And/or paid scenarios.

Most of what everyone else is describing seems more like a production number. Isn't riding the faders, spot micing and other tricks just compensating for the gear, or the venue, or the group? I can understand it from a production stand point. i.e. Budget only allows for one on a part, where the arrangement was for sections on a part. But it didn't sound like that was what the OP was asked to do.

I consider myself more of a historian. I'm recording the event as it actually happened (not making the event happen). So section X is too soft to be heard by most of the audience. So the trumpets are in the wrong key. That was part of the event. And part of the appeal of a live recording IMO. And AFAIK, what the composer intended. But then again most of what I do is for archival / training purposes and relatively unpaid.

I seem to get in trouble whenever I say this, but I take the approach that all recordings are a lie. Face it. There is no such thing a transparent gear. No microphone works the way that our ears do.

When I approach a recording, I try to recreate the sense that you get in the room of how the ensemble works. It is almost a hyper-reality. Our ears are much more sensitve to direct sound, but yet able to balance a microphone. We talk about omni versus cardiod or figure-8, etc... We are all trying to balance those live versus memorex expectations.

To me a recording should have a visceral impact- regardless of the genre. If I'm recording an acapella group doing some sort of motet, I can achieve that very differently than if I'm mixing a piece by Steve Reich. In the end, the person listening to the recording isn't "there." So.... WHO CARES how close it is to the original. Make a recording that people want to listen to.

I could rant on this for pages, but I think I've gotten my point across

--Ben
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #107
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d_fu's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthcircle ➑️
I seem to get in trouble whenever I say this, but I take the approach that all recordings are a lie. (...)
I could rant on this for pages, but I think I've gotten my point across
Keep going, at least I certainly won't object - I think you're exactly right...
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #108
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DCtoDaylight's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthcircle ➑️
I seem to get in trouble whenever I say this, but I take the approach that all recordings are a lie. Face it. There is no such thing a transparent gear. No microphone works the way that our ears do.

[snip]

In the end, the person listening to the recording isn't "there." So.... WHO CARES how close it is to the original. Make a recording that people want to listen to.
I may get in trouble, too, but I agree 100%. And without getting all semiotic on everyone's ass, some pretty influential thinkers like Walter Benjamin would concur; as he wrote, "Even the most perfect reproduction of a work of art is lacking in one element: its presence in time and space, its unique existence at the place where it happens to be." (Walter Benjamin)

Or, Michael Chanan, who has written a couple of splendid, challenging, and very well-researched volumes analyzing audio recording and its effect on music, quotes Fernando Birri saying, "the documentary is a process of approximation towards reality, but a reality you can never fully grasp." (http://www.mchanan.net/page4/assets/zapruder.pdf)

OK - back to microphone self-noise and dogs!
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #109
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran ➑️
A few people think there is one and only one way to record classical music. Just like in the studio there are no hard and fast rules.

excellent advice!
Old 30th January 2009 | Show parent
  #110
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Well to some extent recording is a lie. My mics hear better than I do. Part of the advantage of recording rehearsals for me is to hear the instruction that I otherwise missed because the ice machine kicked on, or the A/C, or someone started having an asthma attack. And outdoors with other distractions, my mics have a better seat in the house and cancel out more of the wind noise than my ears do.

But I'm not a fan of the lie. I've got recordings of my college groups. And when I listen to them, it sounds nothing like the group that I remember playing in. The 1st chair played to soft, the 4th chair too loud, and other characteristics. When I listen to the recordings, it's like they brought in some other group after us to redo the studio session. It sounds good and normal by all references, but that's not what I remember of the group that I was in. I prefer at least some honesty / transparency myself. I guess that's why I prefer this or that symphony over another. Like Montreal's crazy loud trombones, over a more conservative Boston.
Old 30th January 2009 | Show parent
  #111
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthcircle ➑️
I seem to get in trouble whenever I say this, but I take the approach that all recordings are a lie. ...
I agree in essence what you say, but I wouldn't call it a lie. A lie means you pretend it to be something else, like to be reality. I think most of us would never pretend that.
Instead of lie I use the word "illusion".
Old 30th January 2009 | Show parent
  #112
Lives for gear
 
NetworkAudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow_7 ➑️
But I'm not a fan of the lie. I've got recordings of my college groups. And when I listen to them, it sounds nothing like the group that I remember playing in. The 1st chair played to soft, the 4th chair too loud, and other characteristics. When I listen to the recordings, it's like they brought in some other group after us to redo the studio session.

Most wind and brass players I know and respect regularly go and listen to the archival takes of rehersals and to some extent the concerts. This is to get pointers on sound, articulation and balance. While the recording might not be precisely what you hear in the hall it still is brutally honest in some respects.
The balance from to back might be off a bit, but it should be equally off for the first and the fourth player, so if thats not balanced on tape, then it never was IRL.
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #113
29327
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthcircle ➑️
I seem to get in trouble whenever I say this, but I take the approach that all recordings are a lie. Face it. There is no such thing a transparent gear. No microphone works the way that our ears do.

When I approach a recording, I try to recreate the sense that you get in the room of how the ensemble works. It is almost a hyper-reality. Our ears are much more sensitve to direct sound, but yet able to balance a microphone. We talk about omni versus cardiod or figure-8, etc... We are all trying to balance those live versus memorex expectations.

To me a recording should have a visceral impact- regardless of the genre. If I'm recording an acapella group doing some sort of motet, I can achieve that very differently than if I'm mixing a piece by Steve Reich. In the end, the person listening to the recording isn't "there." So.... WHO CARES how close it is to the original. Make a recording that people want to listen to.

I could rant on this for pages, but I think I've gotten my point across

--Ben
Wow, Ben, I couldn't agree more. I was going to try to say the same thing, but you nailed it!

I feel that there's more than just "an event" to capture at a performance, there's an impact, an emotion. The composer is/was trying to convey something more than cough during the third movement, some out of balance strings or a harp buried under the brass; we convey the soul of a work or a performance, not just the acoustic happenings of a given time and place.
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #114
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Wow a lot of posts, I have been very busy recently (thankfully!) including a gig
a couple of nights back running 2 x HD24 again, all went very smooth will read these later today/tommorrow, thanks.
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #115
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Hmm, a lot of OT stuff there, never mind... I think I am fairly well prepared.

I have my gear, my ears, back up recorder/mics and confidence, I think I should do ok, thanks for those who gave advice.
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #116
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Now, you're talkin'!!!

Go for it and have fun doing it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by XLR2XLR ➑️
Hmm, a lot of OT stuff there, never mind... I think I am fairly well prepared.

I have my gear, my ears, back up recorder/mics and confidence, I think I should do ok, thanks for those who gave advice.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #117
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
I thought I would just correct Petrus who posted incorrect dynamic range
specs for the HD24XR on the first page (or with the EC-2 board fitted).

If you are spouting specs after suggesting reality checks etc., at least get them right.

The S/N Ratio for the HD24XR is actually 112dB A weighted.

And you know what I did a remote last week, mixed it at the weekend and it
sounds absolutely fantastic.

dfegad103dB
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #118
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d_fu's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by XLR2XLR ➑️
The S/N Ratio for the HD24XR is actually 112dB A weighted.
dfegad103dB
In real life, this difference just doesn't matter... Your recording would sound no better or worse either way.

Quote:
And you know what I did a remote last week, mixed it at the weekend and it sounds absolutely fantastic.
Let's hear some clips then...
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #119
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by XLR2XLR ➑️
...

The S/N Ratio for the HD24XR is actually 112dB A weighted.

And you know what I did a remote last week, mixed it at the weekend and it
sounds absolutely fantastic.

dfegad103dB
You are a born winner. I'm sure it is because of the denoising process you used. Too bad the old suckers in the age of tape couldn't manage a single half decent recording with their S/N ratios of 70 dB. May your glory shine upon us for ever.

Lord, give this fellow some brain, please !
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #120
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by audio ergo sum ➑️
You are a born winner. I'm sure it is because of the denoising process you used. Too bad the old suckers in the age of tape couldn't manage a single half decent recording with their S/N ratios of 70 dB. May your glory shine upon us for ever.

Lord, give this fellow some brain, please !
heh heh heh heh heh
πŸ“ Reply

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