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Classical music recording....
Old 27th January 2009 | Show parent
  #61
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio ergo sum ➡️
...You can't record classical music without a scholarly and musical approach. You still can record musical performances in venues, BUT NO MUSIC....
I sympathize with the point you're trying to make, yet I know some good recordings are made by people who bring only technical competence and an ear for music. They aren't all scholars or musicians, and yet their good results are not accidental either.

I don't read music scales but I can follow a score's progression. I am just a good listener who attends rehearsals to hear the dynamics, timbres, movements and other qualities in the literature as it comes to life under the baton. Sometimes I need a score to write notes on, other times I don't. I think you don't have to be a trained musician or an academic scholar to record well, but you do have to listen with enough cognitive and emotional discernment to know what the score is saying and how the performers are saying it. I somehow get by just by talking with the musicians about the composition, by comparing my impressions with their intentions. I bring the acoustic space into the conversation, the balances and blends. This simple approach works. They seem to appreciate it and, at least, they trust me to record them. For me it is an honor to put my craft in service of their gifts.
Old 27th January 2009 | Show parent
  #62
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DCtoDaylight's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick ➡️

I somehow get by just by talking with the musicians about the composition, by comparing my impressions with their intentions. I bring the acoustic space into the conversation, the balances and blends. This simple approach works. They seem to appreciate it and, at least, they trust me to record them. For me it is an honor to put my craft in service of their gifts.
I know it's not exactly what Audio Ergo Sum was getting at, but I'd say this qualifies in some sense as a "scholarly and musical approach" to the process. You're bringing intelligence, training, and experience to bear on the task at hand, along with respect for the ensembles you're working with, and an understanding of the overall goal.

This is very much the approach I try to bring to my (fairly limited) efforts in classical recording; as noted earlier, I've purposely calibrated the assignments to my experience level, handling mostly archival recordings on a low- or no-pay basis. I love doing it, and enjoy the opportunity to work with people who are tremendously good at what they do - and maybe someday I'll graduate to doing more-serious recordings. And if not, I'll still have had a good time and helped out some very deserving groups.

It helps that, while my performance and composition background is in the pop end of things, I've listened to classical ever since I was a boy, so on some level I "get it" about what everyone is aiming for (although not with the nuance or depth that a formally trained person would bring).

And, as an aside to klaukholm, I'll just add that my great-grandfather was a bassist who emigrated from Denmark to the US, where he had a long career playing with symphony and operatic orchestras in the early part of the last century - I like to think that I'm using some of what I inherited from him!
Old 27th January 2009 | Show parent
  #63
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Corran's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
For XLR2XLR, here's a recording I did last night using the HD24XR.

Two Earthworks omnis in AB about 2 feet apart and two Earthworks cardioid outriggers about 20 feet apart facing in.

Just wanted to show what some decent SDCs and the HD24XR can do, hypothetically speaking.

Oh and a picture heh
Attached Thumbnails
Classical music recording....-shots06.jpg  
Attached Files

flutepiano.mp3 (5.38 MB, 1056 views)

Old 27th January 2009 | Show parent
  #64
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NetworkAudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Here is a real world example of how challenging the producer/engineers job can be:
A few years ago I was playing on a disk tha would later be grammy nominated.
After a few months we had to redo a large part of it (famous american composer with a career in life insurance) due to the trumpets playing the parts on the wrong pitched instruments. The problem was vague parts and the fact that this composer is bitonal, often with the orchestra in two different tempi simultaneously. The producer, a very-very good producer only caught the mistake in editing. This ended up being a huge expense in the five digit $-range.
Another case was poor time management on the first day with a very experienced big label producer. This caused us to go into overtime on day three and even with that the CD never got released as it could not be finished in the time alotted and the label would not spend any more money on the project.

A third CD I played on featuring a stellar soloist performance of a previously unrecorded concerto on a large label, several people dropped the ball including the french producer and the cd never went to release even 7 years later.

Similar to scoring sessions you are dealing with $20k-25k per day or more for a threee to 5 day session. A responsible corporation would never put an inexperienced person in charge of such an endeavour.
Old 27th January 2009 | Show parent
  #65
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Roland's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by klaukholm ➡️
Here is a real world example of how challenging the producer/engineers job can be:
A few years ago I was playing on a disk tha would later be grammy nominated.
After a few months we had to redo a large part of it (famous american composer with a career in life insurance) due to the trumpets playing the parts on the wrong pitched instruments. The problem was vague parts and the fact that this composer is bitonal, often with the orchestra in two different tempi simultaneously. The producer, a very-very good producer only caught the mistake in editing. This ended up being a huge expense in the five digit $-range.
Another case was poor time management on the first day with a very experienced big label producer. This caused us to go into overtime on day three and even with that the CD never got released as it could not be finished in the time alotted and the label would not spend any more money on the project.

A third CD I played on featuring a stellar soloist performance of a previously unrecorded concerto on a large label, several people dropped the ball including the french producer and the cd never went to release even 7 years later.

Similar to scoring sessions you are dealing with $20k-25k per day or more for a threee to 5 day session. A responsible corporation would never put an inexperienced person in charge of such an endeavour.
I can really empathize with the above comments. I remember doing a session with a military band where a colleague of the conductor was bought in to "co-produce" and look after the conductors interest. He was painstaking in the extreme, to the point that after he left 3/4's of the way through the sessions I still had nearly half the material for the disc to record. It's like driving a coach and horses, decisions have to be made quickly, results have to be analyzed on the fly. It happens in orchestral sessions when conductors get tired and you end up directing the band by proxy, an understanding of the score, the musical structure and an ability to see what the composer was aiming for beyond the dot's on the page is really necessary. Interestingly with the military band, the material that was "driven through" at the end of session was the best stuff.

Regards


Roland
Old 27th January 2009 | Show parent
  #66
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DCtoDaylight's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran ➡️
For XLR2XLR, here's a recording I did last night using the HD24XR.

Two Earthworks omnis in AB about 2 feet apart and two Earthworks cardioid outriggers about 20 feet apart facing in.

Just wanted to show what some decent SDCs and the HD24XR can do, hypothetically speaking.

Oh and a picture heh
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but at-sa nice! Spacious and detailed at the same time, even on my crummy computer speakers. What's the rough proportion between the main pair and the outriggers in this mix?
Old 27th January 2009 | Show parent
  #67
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d_fu's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by klaukholm ➡️
Similar to scoring sessions you are dealing with $20k-25k per day or more for a threee to 5 day session. A responsible corporation would never put an inexperienced person in charge of such an endeavour.
Kjetil, I think that totally goes without saying... But then, many of us here don't (and never will) work for labels and corporations, and neither will the OP.

Most of the recordings I do also need no producing, they are live concerts (which I see no reason not to refer to as music). Many get copied or go to an archive with no (musical) editing, some will require limited editing after the show.

When I did get an opportunity to make a recording for Sony last year, I didn't go alone, my musically more competent SO went along to be the producer and did a great job. I personally like to switch my ears to "technical mode" during recording and mostly don't really listen to the music.

I can very much identify with what Michael has written.


Daniel

PS: Sorry for making assumptions, but as you see above, others have also found some of the OP's ideas (joke or not) rather, errr, interesting...
Old 27th January 2009 | Show parent
  #68
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCtoDaylight ➡️
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but at-sa nice! Spacious and detailed at the same time, even on my crummy computer speakers. What's the rough proportion between the main pair and the outriggers in this mix?
I agree. Do you happen to have a picture of the whole setup?
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #69
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videoteque's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by klaukholm ➡️
Later I advanced to start and stop the ADATs.
How many years it took you to get the "start and stop ADATs" to a pro level??

When people take themself too seriously or fake they were born knowing everything it quickly gets boring, and I don't talk just about klaukholm...

This XLR guy is making his first classical recording and nobody will die even if he forgets to press REC. Please let's keep on with our lives!!!thumbsupthumbsup
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #70
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joelpatterson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran ➡️
...Just wanted to show what some decent SDCs and the HD24XR can do, hypothetically speaking...
Gorgeous, airy and yet immediate, great punch to the piano and great power and yet delicacy to the flute. Wait! It's fading out! Come back...!
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #71
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MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran ➡️
I'd love to see a recording engineer frantically flipping pages and trying to follow some of the stuff I've recorded.
How about live recordings of Mahler for SACD?

These guys work as a team. One has the faders, both have a score.

Article... http://www.mercurynews.com/mahler/ci_7240809
Attached Thumbnails
Classical music recording....-20071021_sfsrecord.jpg  
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #72
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🎧 10 years
Yeah, if you're doing a 25k recording, by all means be reading the score and riding faders. Again, don't lose focus of the OP's clients, who likely will not have a fraction of that budget ever, or else they would be going to an established classical engineer.

d_fu, I know where you are coming from and I think we are on the same page.

Also, I'm not sure why you have to ride the faders at the concert, I do some volume automation occasionally but it's perfectly easy to do it in the DAW...




ANYWAY, thanks guys for your kind comments on my recording. Joel, sorry I had to fade it, due to the size limit. I'll upload it to my website so you can have the whole thing.

Pictures! I don't know why but I chose one that didn't have the mics in it! Silly me. Here's a couple full resolution shots of the setup.

And the file:

http://www.oceanstarproductions.com/flutepianoall.mp3
Attached Thumbnails
Classical music recording....-img_0779.jpg   Classical music recording....-img_0784.jpg   Classical music recording....-img_0777.jpg  
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #73
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MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran ➡️
...Here's a couple full resolution shots of the setup.
Bryan, I didn't know Earthworks made black ones. What model are those mains?
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #74
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Corran's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Hey Michael,

Those are a pair of QTC-1's, also known as QTC-40's.

They only made a handful of black ones on special request, but have since stopped taking requests for it as I understand. These mics were bought by some engineer who worked for NPR but I picked them up on ebay for $1100 (!!!) a few months ago. I love them to death and use them on everything I do pretty much. I also have one of the silver ones, so I can do a pretty cool Decca Tree with the trio! heh
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #75
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MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran ➡️
Hey Michael,

Those are a pair of QTC-1's, also known as QTC-40's.

They only made a handful of black ones on special request, but have since stopped taking requests for it as I understand. These mics were bought by some engineer who worked for NPR but I picked them up on ebay for $1100 (!!!) a few months ago. I love them to death and use them on everything I do pretty much. I also have one of the silver ones, so I can do a pretty cool Decca Tree with the trio! heh
Very nice. I'm jealous.
My QTC-40s are silver and really stand out when sitting up there as mains.

I've heard several clips of yours including this new one and you are doing some great work with that kit. Whenever you upgrade one option will be preamps. Then you'll be able to use your MultiMix to monitor the HD24XR outputs in real time. I use something similar and it's very handy. I recently found used a DAV BG No2, 4 pres in 1U, for a great price. I'll try it for the first time tonight for soprano/piano. The DAV stuff is very light -- good for location work. If it turns out OK I'll post some clips in the remotester's forum here.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #76
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Corran's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Yeah, the black finish is great (they've been on TV multiple times with the local orchestra, and they complain a lot when I have mics in the way).

I really appreciate your compliments. I know that one thing I don't have is "high-end" pres but I'm working on it. I'm selling some stuff in the classifieds and as soon as I raise the money I'm getting the Sytek 4-channel pre.

I actually think the Alesis MultiMix is waaay better than it should be. The specs on the pres are actually really freakin' good, and they of course sound good. BUT one caveat is that I've never actually worked with nice preamps past my M-audio DMP-3, so I wouldn't know the difference?? Anyway, I think just having the 4-channel Sytek will cover most of my bases for now.

Edit: How much is that DAV 4 channel? It's probably outta my price range. Since I'm graduating college here in just a few months I am pretty wary about my gear purchases (not to mention the ol' economy). I kinda used my budget for the year with the HD24XR.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #77
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DCtoDaylight's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran ➡️


ANYWAY, thanks guys for your kind comments on my recording.
Even better now that I'm home and can hear it on a decent system. Natural but more than natural (along the lines of what Joel talks about).

Still wondering about the relative balance of the main pair and the outriggers - not to pry or anything; just wanting to, like, learn!

Thanks for sharing -
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #78
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Corran's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
No problem, I forgot about that:

The two outriggers are about 10-12 feet to either side of the main pair. I think they were actually a little too far away though after listening to them later, but they are only about 20-30% of the final product. I have lately been just doing 2 or 3 omni mics but decided to throw those up just for interest's sake. I actually normally use a pair of LDC mics as outriggers (they give an extra "musicality" to the recording) and I think that actually fairs a little better, maybe. I'm kinda splitting hairs here I think - but I'm always after the best recording I can possibly get!
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #79
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MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran ➡️
I actually think the Alesis MultiMix is waaay better than it should be.
I agree, for what it cost it has no right to sound that good. And all those features. Plus, everyone with an HD24 needs a way to monitor on location. It's perfect for that and doing live stereo mixes from the the HD24 to CD, cameras, etc.

The Sytek pres will produce a noticeable difference. More headroom, faster transients, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran ➡️
How much is that DAV 4 channel?
A recent quote from Mick said $1,512 shipped. He also pays any import taxes, so that's the total price.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #80
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🎧 10 years
Well that's better than I expected, but I'll probably be getting the Sytek for now. Or that is, if my stuff sells
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #81
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NetworkAudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by videoteque ➡️
How many years it took you to get the "start and stop ADATs" to a pro level??

When people take themself too seriously or fake they were born knowing everything it quickly gets boring, and
You are missing the point entirely. My point is precisely that you are not born knowing everything as you say.

I would say it took about ten years before I headed up my own projects.

It is unfortunate that you find my advice so boring. I am simply saying start slow and come prepared to the full. This is the fastest way to a pro career.
The classical scene is very small worldwide and you never get second chances with orchestras. You cannot afford to mess a session up as it will get you blacklisted very quickly and your career will grind to a halt. Classical orchestras are tough and merciless in this respect.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #82
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🎧 10 years
Kjetil, we probably agree more than we disagree!!!

The OP wasn't asking for a career advice. He had one classical gig. That's why I feel exagerated to throw at him all the duties one must do to make a career in the classical field!!! Add the fact that nobody can get hurt for a bad placed mic or a bad choosen preamp, let him try at least relaxed!!!

Quote:
The classical scene is very small worldwide and you never get second chances with orchestras. You cannot afford to mess a session up as it will get you blacklisted very quickly and your career will grind to a halt. Classical orchestras are tough and merciless in this respect.
If this is the reality, I am very happy. I DO want that the better ones in every field are at the top of the game.

BTW, if the dog in the avatar is yours, I have a very similar one!!! ;-DDD

Last edited by videoteque; 28th January 2009 at 08:25 AM.. Reason: Dog comment!
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #83
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by videoteque ➡️
Kjetil, we probably agree more than we disagree!!!

The OP wasn't asking for a career advice. He had one classical gig. That's why I feel exagerated to throw at him all the duties one must do to make a career in the classical field!!! Add the fact that nobody can get hurt for a bad placed mic or a bad choosen preamp, let him try at least relaxed!!!
...
That is all fine. Let everyone learn from each other and from experience. The opener gave the impression he is a little 'full of himself' with his comments about 'low self noise equipment', 'common sense' etc. and someone else marketing himself as "peak of perfection" chiming in with with necessities to use compressors and other nonsense.
It is good in those moments someone like Kjetil chimes in and prevents damage to other beginners in the field who might get the wrong ideas by reading this.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #84
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videoteque's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio ergo sum ➡️
The opener gave the impression he is a little 'full of himself' ...
Let him fail then. We learn only from the errors we do, not from the ones we were advised...

When people discuss for pages if the sound of PCM 96Khz/24bit is better or worse than DSD, if a DAV preamp is better or worse than a Millenia preamp, etc, etc. to me it proves they never did a remote recording. In a remote recording your problem is the cables, if they work and where will you place them. The electrical power. The same with mics, a nice vintage mic can be marvelous, but you'd better have a good replacement if the valve start to make funny noises. All the subtle work that can and must be done in studio, in remote recording is gone. You need signals arriving and not clipping first. Then the real talented engineers can worry about which mic to put where...
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #85
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MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by videoteque ➡️
Let him fail then. We learn only from the errors we do, not from the ones we were advised...
"in a multitude of counselors there is safety." Proverbs 24:6 ...yet only for those who will listen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by videoteque ➡️
When people discuss for pages if the sound of PCM 96Khz/24bit is better or worse than DSD, if a DAV preamp is better or worse than a Millenia preamp, etc, etc. to me it proves they never did a remote recording. In a remote recording your problem is the cables, if they work and where will you place them. The electrical power. The same with mics, a nice vintage mic can be marvelous, but you'd better have a good replacement if the valve start to make funny noises. All the subtle work that can and must be done in studio, in remote recording is gone. You need signals arriving and not clipping first. Then the real talented engineers can worry about which mic to put where...
There's a ton of truth in this but I think you're selling it too hard.

I like to use the best gear I can on some remote gigs, and I still manage also to care about signal passing unclipped. The hunt, the chase, the kill -- it's all a part of the game.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #86
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Corran's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I think the problem with this thread is a few people think there is one and only one way to record classical music. Just like in the studio there are no hard and fast rules. If someone wants to use a compressor to make sure there are no overs and lessen the dynamic range a bit, that's okay. Don't try to force your ideology on anyone. I mean, if that's the sound the orchestra wants, give it to them! I have been told before my CD's were too quiet (and please don't start about the client doesn't know anything then, or to get better clients. We work with what we got).

If he goes and puts two 57s up facing backwards and gets a terrible recording, great! He knows not to do it again. Let's all stop calling this or that technique "nonsense" and let others give their suggestions. The OP or any other beginner will not cause any trouble by trying a variety of techniques/ideologies before finding his own sound.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #87
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran ➡️
I think the problem with this thread is a few people think there is one and only one way to record classical music. Just like in the studio there are no hard and fast rules...
That's not what matters. It's not about rules. Actually there are many many rules/laws/facts, and it certainly is important to know as much as possible about them.

It's about the mindset. There are big masters that can humbly say "I don't know" and there are amateurs that call themself "the peak of perfection".

There is no shortcut to knowledge. In the end we all die. But it is the curiosity and reflection, that made the human raise from the monkeys. In the audio world you can see left and right the symptoms of a regression. That is sad. This thread is one little proof of that.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #88
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joelpatterson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio ergo sum ➡️
... This thread is one little proof of that.
This thread is proof that even the insufferable will get a fair hearing. I don't know what you could ask for, beyond that.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #89
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Corran's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years


Fine, enjoy your rules. I still haven't heard what you think of the results of my techniques. Surely that is all that matters.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #90
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NetworkAudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by videoteque ➡️
BTW, if the dog in the avatar is yours, I have a very similar one!!! ;-DDD
That is Isis the doberman, she's my sweetie - here featured with a very sandy nose back when she was 3-4 months old. She now spends her time pinning 100lb rotweilers without effort.
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