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fast organ mic setup
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #31
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Roland's Avatar
 
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🎧 15 years
Glad it all worked out for you! I agree with Rich, a tad too much room for my taste too. I love the open sound of the room, however, on the fast passages it's not focused enough for me. Even if you had more time, monitoring on location is fraught with problems, you still don't now what you have until you get home. If you do have another pair and you can set them up half way between where you were and the organ you would give yourself the luxury of being able to mix them to achieve the more focused sound, or not, as the individual pieces demand.

Regards


Roland
Old 30th January 2009 | Show parent
  #32
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JonesH's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Very nice!
I'll be recording my girlfriend playing this very piece in a few weeks, maybe I'll post something. Interesting thoughts on organ perspective and tips from people in this thread. Listening on my reference "middle class computer speakers" these are my reactions:

- Some phasey things going on in the mhf range; swoosching reminding me of mp3 compression in some passages (I did listen to the wave file).
- A bit too much of the room for my taste
- While the recording has a very nice treble, I find that the spectral balance between bass and treble is a bit askew; bass feels more "floating" and slightly hyped. This could very well be a registration thing, though! Even in my HD650 the bass feels a bit heavvy in the low mid range. This is always a problem, I think; how to get the gigantic nice fat low end while not mudding it up?
- The pedals are nicely defined, very successfull.

Thank you. We should start a separate organ recordist forum where we can all post our recordings
I'll probably be recording next week, so I'll post something if the performer is happy. At my school we have one of Europe's finest diploma educations for organists (with prof. Hans-Ola Ericsson), so I'm finding many occassions to learn new stuff.
Old 30th January 2009 | Show parent
  #33
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🎧 10 years
JonesH, how can you tell what the problem is with the "spectral balance between bass and treble is a bit askew; bass feels more "floating" and slightly hyped" - do you have a reference recording of this organ in this room with this performance???

I love the recording, the performance, and the spectral balance. To what standard would to want it to adher? I am not challenging you or making you wrong; you undoubtedly know more than I who have made few organ recordings, but how do you know what the organ sounded like live?

Forgive me if my ignorance caused emperor's clothing questions, but I do not have the same criticisms... only appreciation since I wasn't there to judge. Is there some predetermined standard to which organ recordings must adhere?

I also happen to like the room sound; I have never heard a pipe organ in an anechoic space. My favorite cathedral here in San Francisco has a 7.4 second RT60!

Lou
Old 30th January 2009 | Show parent
  #34
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Roland's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesH ➑️
Very nice!
I'll be recording my girlfriend playing this very piece in a few weeks, maybe I'll post something. Interesting thoughts on organ perspective and tips from people in this thread. Listening on my reference "middle class computer speakers" these are my reactions:

- Some phasey things going on in the mhf range; swoosching reminding me of mp3 compression in some passages (I did listen to the wave file).
- A bit too much of the room for my taste
- While the recording has a very nice treble, I find that the spectral balance between bass and treble is a bit askew; bass feels more "floating" and slightly hyped. This could very well be a registration thing, though! Even in my HD650 the bass feels a bit heavvy in the low mid range. This is always a problem, I think; how to get the gigantic nice fat low end while not mudding it up?
- The pedals are nicely defined, very successfull.

Thank you. We should start a separate organ recordist forum where we can all post our recordings
I'll probably be recording next week, so I'll post something if the performer is happy. At my school we have one of Europe's finest diploma educations for organists (with prof. Hans-Ola Ericsson), so I'm finding many occassions to learn new stuff.
If he did use the Sennheisers he was planning on using the spectral balance would be totally accurate, these are very flat, linear microphones, the only anomilies you really can be hearing are those down to the room and instrument and possibly some mp3 artifacts, judging on computer speakers and headphones (even HD650's) is highly speculative.

Regards


Roland
Old 30th January 2009 | Show parent
  #35
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hughesmr's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesH ➑️
We should start a separate organ recordist forum where we can all post our recordings
I could go for that!
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #36
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Symphonic organ

On the topic of placement of mics for organ: We are recording Messiaen organ works on one of the largest *symphonic* organs in the world located in a large auditorium-like structure. This excerpt is from a rehearsal, with spaced omnis used about a third into the room, based on our ears and recommendations of the person who tunes the organ.

Messiaen Final alleluia.wav

This is a clone of the orginal 24-bit recording made to set levels. Thoughts?
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #37
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🎧 10 years
On Messiaen:

Sounds good, but I would try also a bit closer for more clarity in complex works. This placement sounds quite ideal for early works like le Banquet Celeste & Apparition de l'eglise eternelle where the space must breathe.

Would it be possible to mic from different places, early works like in the sample, and move a bit closer for later works? Of course each CD would have to have only one mic placement for continuity.

In conclusion: I would not complain about this sound and perspective if I had bought the complete set...
-----------

I think there is a picture in the CD booklet of Dorian recording of Moussorsky's pictures in organ arrangement by Jean Guillou with Zurich Tonhalle organ. Exemplary sound. Mics seem to be very high about 150cm apart standing near the front edge of orchestral platform, that is about 1/4 to 1/5 away. That spacing is wider than I would first try.
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #38
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JonesH's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson ➑️
JonesH, how can you tell what the problem is with the "spectral balance between bass and treble is a bit askew; bass feels more "floating" and slightly hyped" - do you have a reference recording of this organ in this room with this performance???
Hi Lou,
No, I do not have a reference recording of the organ in the room, nor have I headr this performer before or used those mics or anything. I just wrote down what my listening reactions were. I also mentioned that registration could be to blame for this. I do not know why it sounds like that, but to me that is what I felt. If the particular organ in the particular hall, registered like that sounds like that, then that's of course what we're going to hear in the mics as well, but it shouldn't mean we cannot argue about esthetics recording-wise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson ➑️
To what standard would to want it to adher?
I am not challenging you or making you wrong; you undoubtedly know more than I who have made few organ recordings, but how do you know what the organ sounded like live?
To what standard is indeed a good question! I find it very hard to set a good balance when you have to know so much about the music and the composers intentions. It's certainly not easy, nor is there any absolute and objective correct way to do it. Some people get stellar results with X/Y and some with spaced omnis. Some recordists favour a closer sound while some may prefer a greater representation of the hall. I do not think the goal should be to reproduce exactly what the organ sounded like live, since live listening in a reverberant space and listening to a recording is miles apart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson ➑️
Is there some predetermined standard to which organ recordings must adhere?
Not that I'm aware of
That's what makes it so fun to record.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson ➑️
I also happen to like the room sound; I have never heard a pipe organ in an anechoic space. My favorite cathedral here in San Francisco has a 7.4 second RT60!
That's gotta be lovely
While I never said that I'd like to hear it without any room, I would have favoured a closer sound. You preferred the more distant end reverberant character, and good for you - we're all entitled to have our opinions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland
judging on computer speakers and headphones (even HD650's) is highly speculative.
Yes, I agree that monitoring on computer speakers are not optimal, but I've listened to a lot of organ music on them so I'm a fairly familiar with how they sound. Same goes for the 650's. I do not mean by this that I have absolute knowledge of how an organ should sound or how this recording could have been made different. I think it's a nice recording and simply offered my views. Critique and constant refinement of our methods is still one of the main points of exchanging opinions on this forum, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by [URL="https://gearspace.com/board/members/roland"
Roland[/url]]If he did use the Sennheisers he was planning on using the spectral balance would be totally accurate, these are very flat, linear microphones, the only anomilies you really can be hearing are those down to the room and instrument and possibly some mp3 artifacts
I do however find this interesting. Are you saying mic placement does not affect the sound? In my experience, altering the height of the main pair can drastically change the spectral balance. I've never used the 8020:s, nor consciously listened to them before this, but I find the above to be very true with most mics I've tried - omnis, cardioids and whatnot. Again, I apologize if I misinterpreted you.
Old 1st February 2009 | Show parent
  #39
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Roland's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesH ➑️
Yes, I agree that monitoring on computer speakers are not optimal, but I've listened to a lot of organ music on them so I'm a fairly familiar with how they sound. Same goes for the 650's. I do not mean by this that I have absolute knowledge of how an organ should sound or how this recording could have been made different. I think it's a nice recording and simply offered my views. Critique and constant refinement of our methods is still one of the main points of exchanging opinions on this forum, right?



I do however find this interesting. Are you saying mic placement does not affect the sound? In my experience, altering the height of the main pair can drastically change the spectral balance. I've never used the 8020:s, nor consciously listened to them before this, but I find the above to be very true with most mics I've tried - omnis, cardioids and whatnot. Again, I apologize if I misinterpreted you.

Mic placement might effect the sound, however, not the sound of the mics. The mic's are to all intents and purposes flat, positioning only effects what there are "hearing". One of the reasons why many churches cathedrals provide good acoustics is that they are usually large, high, diffuse, spaces, with relatively heavy construction. Being that he had the mics relatively high, tey are not going to be suffering from any boundry proximity effect. The problem with your post was that it makes a lot of comments, that without being there are impossible to substantiate.

Regards


Roland
Old 1st February 2009 | Show parent
  #40
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JonesH's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland ➑️
Mic placement might effect the sound, however, not the sound of the mics. The mic's are to all intents and purposes flat, positioning only effects what there are "hearing". One of the reasons why many churches cathedrals provide good acoustics is that they are usually large, high, diffuse, spaces, with relatively heavy construction. Being that he had the mics relatively high, tey are not going to be suffering from any boundry proximity effect. The problem with your post was that it makes a lot of comments, that without being there are impossible to substantiate.
Regards
Roland
Thank you for your reply, Roland.
As I've stated, I did not try to point out the reasons for what I heard - without being there and trying on my own, that would be very arrogant - instead only trying to deliver my response on his recording. I again apologize if I somehow offenden anyone - that was never my intent. I only wanted a discussion on recording quality, methods and results. Please point out what parts of my comment you feel were unsubstantiated.

Again, in my experience placement of space pair omnis can really alter the tonality of the recording. If I somehow have succumbed to audiophoolery on this and no one else has had this experience, I would be surprised but glad to be informed. However, this is my understanding both from personal testings and interviews with experienced tonmeisters.

y.c
Johannes
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #41
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Johannes,

Do you want to comment on the Messiaen organ excerpt, posted above? I respect your views.
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #42
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🎧 10 years
I haven't had time to listen but I'm not surprised about the impression reported about heavy sound in HD650.

The 8020 (which I have) is not flat. The on axis response has a lift in the upper bass/lower mid and HD650 has the same. HD600 is flatter (but also weaker in the low bass).

In most situations the combo 8020/650 needs EQ to sound neutral. A cut from 60-300Hz or so of -2dB gives better results. A small lift in the top may help as well since the response is rolled of in the top in the diffuse field.


/Peter
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #43
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loujudson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 ➑️
On the topic of placement of mics for organ: We are recording Messiaen organ works on one of the largest *symphonic* organs in the world located in a large auditorium-like structure. This excerpt is from a rehearsal, with spaced omnis used about a third into the room, based on our ears and recommendations of the person who tunes the organ.

Messiaen Final alleluia.wav

This is a clone of the orginal 24-bit recording made to set levels. Thoughts?
Nasty background spamm in that link - do you have direct link?

Lou
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #44
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Sorry no. Mediafire is a respectable commercial site. It provides "free" file hosting, and gets revenue from ads. There is no malware or viruses, just background ads (from well-known companie like Yahoo). I have never had a problem with it, nor heard any complaints - I have had it checked with a number of programs for spybots, malware, etc. And there is no spam - it does not get your e-mail or ip address (it does not require you to sign in or join anything). I understand being cautious, but this is a legitimate file-hosting site (I do not have any commercial interest in it; I just use it to remain anonymous and it is free). The pop-ups are annoying, but on the same order as the NY Times web site or CNN.

The audio excerpt is a relatively big file, uncompressed, so I cannot attach it or use e-mail programs to send it. There have been scores of downloads of files from my folders on this site, with no issues.

If anyone has a problem let me know.
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #45
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loujudson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 ➑️
Sorry no. Mediafire is a respectable commercial site.

edit

If anyone has a problem let me know.
Well, it worked on second try, but the problem I have is all the commercials! I had to close four separate yahoo advertising windows to get out of it!

I just happen to detest advertising, especially the kind that opens windows I do not ask for (I don't watch TV for similar reasons) so while I protest, that makes it free if you don't mind ads...

But thanks, I look forward to the music!
Lou
Old 7th October 2009 | Show parent
  #46
Gear Maniac
 
Peter Allison's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I' doing the same thing too

I have managed to get a hold of a pair of rode (NT55) omnis, and am recording in a large cathedral here in the Uk, later this month. After a while reading the various threads on how to record the organ, I have found this one of the most illuminating, I value all of your views, and so will be trying out a "spaced pair" and trying to get em high. As I will be doing this for my own pleasure, and at my own expense, I will, when its done, try and post an example for you all to critque, just so I can find out if its any good. here is a link to its specifacation, if anyone is interested in these "anorak" things stoplist

Peter
( in real life, a butcher)
Old 7th October 2009 | Show parent
  #47
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sonare's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
The organ at Durham is arguably one of the finest in the realm-- being the work of "Father" Willis and Harrison & Harrison (who are located in Durham and make sure it is in top form).

Enjoy this experience-- many of us would give much for the opportunity to record this one!

Rich
Old 7th October 2009 | Show parent
  #48
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Peter Allison's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonare ➑️
The organ at Durham is arguably one of the finest in the realm-- being the work of "Father" Willis and Harrison & Harrison (who are located in Durham and make sure it is in top form).

Enjoy this experience-- many of us would give much for the opportunity to record this one!

Rich
you are right there Rich, its one of the UK's finest, recorded there many times ( with my little H2) it used to be my "local" parish church, lol
Old 21st October 2012
  #49
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JamesClark1991's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Helpful thread, gave me some ideas. Thanks
Old 22nd October 2012 | Show parent
  #50
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🎧 15 years
The smaller the diaphragms are, the more far away the omnis sound, as they become more omnidirectional.
Old 22nd October 2012
  #51
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Use your ears, all the scientific stuff is great but if your ears think is garbage it is!!

Steve
Old 3rd November 2012 | Show parent
  #52
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland ➑️
The mic's are to all intents and purposes flat, positioning only effects what there are "hearing".
Roland
Ne'er a truer word said.

How many times have I found a listening spot (a "sweet spot") my ears respond to.....that I emote with, planted the mics in that place....then gone to monitors (or cans) to check, only to return to the stand & shuffle the rig a considerable distance forward.

Our ears (brain) do not process what we hear the same way mics hear particularly in these overwhelmingly challenged acoustical situations. So it is true that we should respond to what our mics hear & not what our minds think we should do by calculation (although 1/3rd into the building has been a good starting point IME). Do have a trusted set of monitors or headphones at hand - even then things will sound different in our studio/home environment than it did on location.

Throwing this one out to the readership, how many times we read (when determining a microphone position) ....walk around, listen to a warm-up recital, do clapping tests, listening tests, or whatever. So why is it then, having found our "sweet spot spot" based at ear-level, do we shove our main pickup rigs on extension poles up-high such as 14-16ft or the like? Isn't that moving the goal posts?

Surely few of us have a crane or a mobility lift to witness that mid-air experience? My listening experience is always 5ft 4" from the ground (when standing) anywhere in the world I have been the last 30 years. Can someone remind me of the importance of tall stands in this situation? ...but we use them.
(note to self: why/how is the sanctuary candle able to burn unhindered behind enclosed glass?.....& yet we expect our capsules to be unsusceptible of rumble)

On a final note, although I am a user of Jecklin Disc in highly ambient (church) situations. While the mid-high frequency stereo separation is good, it is true that the spacing is too narrow for wider lower-bass octave information. There is no harm in considering out-riggers as a supplement. Alternatively, try keeping spaced omnis wide by several feet (rather than several inches) but then I've always been rather suspect about close-coincident arrays & "stereo" bass involvement (lack of) at times when I should be capturing a "wide field" source. A crossed pair is mono space as far as bass information is concerned IMHO.
Old 4th November 2012
  #53
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🎧 15 years
Why up 14-16 feet? Because if that's where you need to put the mics to get the desired pickup, that's where you put them.

Why is placing flanks several feet apart any more valid a practice than placing mics up above a natural live listening location? My ears are only about 7-8" apart...

Cheers!
Old 4th November 2012 | Show parent
  #54
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughesmr ➑️
Why up 14-16 feet? Because if that's where you need to put the mics to get the desired pickup, that's where you put them.

Why is placing flanks several feet apart any more valid a practice than placing mics up above a natural live listening location? My ears are only about 7-8" apart...
I think one of the reasons for putting mics up high is to lessen picking up reflections from the hard floor.
Old 4th November 2012 | Show parent
  #55
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2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by polytope ➑️
I think one of the reasons for putting mics up high is to lessen picking up reflections from the hard floor.
One of my primary reasons for putting the mics up high is to get them farther from the audience when recording live concerts. If they were six feet up, where my ears are, it would be so close to the applause as to be deafening... and audience rustling is always a factor in live recordings.

Next week I'm recording a vocal and instrument (no organ) performance of Monteverdi's Amor Sacro | Amor Profano in a carpeted church, and they have some of the voices down on the floor in front of the chancel, so I have to put the mic stand between the fourth row of pews in the aisle to capture a decent perspective. Did a test in rehearsal the other night and it sounds lovely! I'll get to record the organ also the same week, but no audience for that. I'll still put them up high...
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