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Micing Grand Piano-Pheonix/brauners?ideas
Old 24th January 2003
  #1
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🎧 15 years
Micing Grand Piano-Pheonix/brauners?ideas

I have a remote gig coming up, micing up a grand piano in a church I have Km184's,oktava 012's and sennheiser 441's for pairs of mics,symetrix202,vintech 1272, mackie 1402vlz for stereo pres. It was recommended that I try out the Pheonix drs mic pre and the brauner Phantom-c fet mics, what do you think of these 2 pieces for this or other applications? I have alot of other mics but not pairs, Lawson47,251, akg 414,soundleux 195 and others.

Are the brauners likely to sound better than the soundelux 195 or my other mics? I'm going to record 3 pairs to learn as much as I can from the experience and I may end up blending?
Anybody tried the piano barre? Thanks
danielheh
Old 24th January 2003
  #2
Here for the gear
 
🎧 15 years
re:mic choice

You have a great collection of a mics . One of the best preamps out there to experiment with is the Phoenix. If you have a bright sounding piano the Oktavas might work well which I have used with the Phoenix, but not on piano. The brighter mics like the KM184s work if the piano is darker or thats the tone you are going for . Either way with the right mic postioning it would be hard to make a bad recording with those mics and that pre.
The Phoenix is one of the most open , big, warm, and at the same time clear preamps I've ever heard or used. The Vintech 1272 will be darker and more closed in sounding. I would use the Phoenix.I haven't used the Brauner but I'm sure it would be up to the task. Just different colors, all good. Apologize for sounding nebulous but really every situation and piano is unique. Again,with the right mic positioning all of the above can sound awesome. Hope that helps a bit.
Old 24th January 2003
  #3
Gear Guru
 
NathanEldred's Avatar
 
7 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Re: Micing Grand Piano-Pheonix/brauners?ideas

Quote:
Originally posted by FOURTHTUNZ
I have a remote gig coming up, micing up a grand piano in a church I have Km184's,oktava 012's and sennheiser 441's for pairs of mics,symetrix202,vintech 1272, mackie 1402vlz for stereo pres. It was recommended that I try out the Pheonix drs mic pre and the brauner Phantom-c fet mics, what do you think of these 2 pieces for this or other applications? I have alot of other mics but not pairs, Lawson47,251, akg 414,soundleux 195 and others.

Are the brauners likely to sound better than the soundelux 195 or my other mics? I'm going to record 3 pairs to learn as much as I can from the experience and I may end up blending?
Anybody tried the piano barre? Thanks
danielheh
Brauner's sound phenomenal on Piano. "Better" than the U195, for my tastes, because the Brauner is more neutral sounding and the polar pattern seems a little wider (even though it's cardiod), which lends itself well to piano recording. Personally I think wide cardiod (or omni) in a pressure gradient capsule is about the most perfectly musical pattern out of anything, and although it's not a dual backplate design, the Phantom C has the 'sound'. It's quite stunning through a DRS-2....serious depth there.
Old 12th February 2003
  #4
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
more info about Brauners?

I've now done a couple of sessions micing this grand piano, and its been very interesting! The sennheiser441 pair with the symetrix is sounding very good on this piano. I've been using km184's or oktava 012's into the phoenix drs as a distant pair.
I'm interested in getting another pair of mics for recording piano and maybe used for overheads. Anybody used any of the brauners for these applications? How about the phantom c?
What about matched pairs? my sennheisers aren't matched but I'm not hearing hearing any imaging problems yet, are matched pairs the only way to go? Thanks
daniel
Old 12th February 2003
  #5
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DigitMus's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I just had someone in the studio for a few days trying out mics & preamps for piano and acoustic guitar sounds. We got incredible results using a Brauner Valvet BE as the main piano mic, supplimented with a couple of Earthworks (omni on the lows, cardioid on highs). The Valvet by itself was big, round, well balanced and quite natural; adding the QTC-1 and SR77 as 'outriders' made a sound like you had climbed inside the piano (holographic? 3D?)!! It took a while to get the positions right (and yes, an inch either way made a significant difference), but WOW!! (FWIW the preamps were Crane Song.)

Scott
Old 12th February 2003
  #6
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I reckon that being a pimp for some of this stuff I should probably try to push it... but I guess I just suck at being a pimp. Damn shame.

The best sounding piano tracks I've cut in years were done with a pair of Stapes microphones. Their website sucks... but there is way to make contact... which is about all you need to do.

The things are dirt cheap... and IMNSFHO sound bloody awesome.

Best of luck with your search.
Old 12th February 2003
  #7
Gear Addict
 
Bernd G's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Brauner and QTC 1

I would second the combination of Brauner Phantom C and QTC-1s. Fantastic Sound ! Be careful with the level of the QTCs, very HOT ! Use a pair of omnis in any case if you cannot get to the EWs. Close the lid if you have too.
Cheers

B
Old 13th February 2003
  #8
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Fletcher
I reckon that being a pimp for some of this stuff I should probably try to push it... but I guess I just suck at being a pimp. Damn shame.

The best sounding piano tracks I've cut in years were done with a pair of Stapes microphones. Their website sucks... but there is way to make contact... which is about all you need to do.

The things are dirt cheap... and IMNSFHO sound bloody awesome.

Best of luck with your search.
Fletch, thanks for your honesty, hard to find these days
I'm gonna call up stapes and see what the deal is, thanks
daniel
Old 13th February 2003
  #9
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David R.'s Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Taken from the Staples page describing thier microphones:

Quote:
The self-noise is relatively high, but not noticeably so. The sound quality is well worth any problems with the slight hiss. An issue that has come up recently with the microphones is that they are wired out-of-phase, but this is easily fixed, if need be.
:eek:
Old 14th February 2003
  #10
Here for the gear
 
Deadly's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I had the chance to try out a DPA stereo pair on a midified yamaha grand.
They were the 4006 models going through a millennia stereo pre.
We had a pair of excellent german mikes ( a stereo pair) as well up and running to the same pre ( it was the 8 channel model) so it was only the mikes sounding different.

We constructed a midi pattern that did the whole 8 octave range so there was a lot of different frequencies and harmonics to capture.

The interesting thing that happened was as soon as I got into the "sweet-spot" to listen and A-B the two different sets of mikes, I noticed something weird, the other guy who was doing the test heard it right away as well, the centre of the recording was moving around with the other pair.
I thought it was a phase thing at first, but it turned out to be the difference in the frequency response, as the other pair would repeatedly move around at certain precise moments.

The Dpa pair were rock solid in the image department meaning their "stereo-matching was better than the others.

Something to look out for.

We had the time to try out different distances and we found being 3 meters or 9 feet directly opposite the open lid directly opposite gave us the best sound. Close positioning to the soundboard clogged up the bottom-end.
Old 14th February 2003
  #11
Gear Addict
 
Etnier's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I realize that this is hopelessly out of fashion, but I still like what I get from a pair of Crown PZM's mounted (taped) on the underside of the lid. Best sound stick up, with an RPG Abfussor across the music rack facing the strings, but they also work well lid-down.

After trying all sorts of preamps: (Neve 1084 & Mercenary 4272, , API 3124, Focusrite ISA115 mong them), I like the Millennia Quad the best...
Old 14th February 2003
  #12
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Roland's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Deadly
I had the chance to try out a DPA stereo pair on a midified yamaha grand.
They were the 4006 models going through a millennia stereo pre.
We had a pair of excellent german mikes ( a stereo pair) as well up and running to the same pre ( it was the 8 channel model) so it was only the mikes sounding different.

We constructed a midi pattern that did the whole 8 octave range so there was a lot of different frequencies and harmonics to capture.

The interesting thing that happened was as soon as I got into the "sweet-spot" to listen and A-B the two different sets of mikes, I noticed something weird, the other guy who was doing the test heard it right away as well, the centre of the recording was moving around with the other pair.
I thought it was a phase thing at first, but it turned out to be the difference in the frequency response, as the other pair would repeatedly move around at certain precise moments.

The Dpa pair were rock solid in the image department meaning their "stereo-matching was better than the others.

Something to look out for.

We had the time to try out different distances and we found being 3 meters or 9 feet directly opposite the open lid directly opposite gave us the best sound. Close positioning to the soundboard clogged up the bottom-end.
If you are using a Concert grand the sound will sweep left and right depending on how the soundboard and the strings resonate. This is perfectly natural and will occur using BK's too!

As for choices for piano, I would recommend most of the above mentioned models plus mics from Sennheiser, Schoeps, Neuman, etc. Placement and choice for me would depend on whether it was a classical session, Jazz session or rock track. Instrument and of course room would also be major factors for me.

Regards


Roland
Old 15th February 2003
  #13
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I been micing our new Yamaha Grand and I tried lots of stuff, pairs, 3 mics, 4 mics- I now have 4 Earthworks on it, and it sounds amazing (when the piano is just tuned and voiced). The pair above the hammers are SR77's, which are directional. I love these mics - they capture so much emotion, but they don't offer much bass in this setup, so I also have a pair of EW Omni's (QTC's) about midway back over the soundboard, pointed at the hammers a little. The QTC's give the ultimate in reality, not nearly as flattering as the 77's, but not in the way either. Had them in EW pre's too, which sound great, but I really want to try the Cranesong stuff - and what's the Phoenix? Maybe I gotta try that too.
Old 15th February 2003
  #14
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I have had good results on grands using a Soundfield stereo mic, which is also easy as pie to use on remote gigs.

(Of course musical style -- rock, classical, gospel, pop, Baroque, Balinese, "heavy metal easy listening," etc. -- has a lot to do with what mics work best and where you'll want to put them).

-MattiMattMatt
Old 15th February 2003
  #15
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pounce's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
so how much do the stapes omni mics cost anyway?

no info in tape op, their website, the mercenary site, etc. ?

i might have a few bucks coming up for stuff like this, im curious
Old 15th February 2003
  #16
Gear Guru
 
NathanEldred's Avatar
 
7 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Paul,

I think you will have conductive results if you email Stapes directly and ask them.

[email protected]

Good Luck.
Old 16th February 2003
  #17
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Copus
I been micing our new Yamaha Grand and I tried lots of stuff, pairs, 3 mics, 4 mics- I now have 4 Earthworks on it, and it sounds amazing (when the piano is just tuned and voiced). The pair above the hammers are SR77's, which are directional. I love these mics - they capture so much emotion, but they don't offer much bass in this setup, so I also have a pair of EW Omni's (QTC's) about midway back over the soundboard, pointed at the hammers a little. The QTC's give the ultimate in reality, not nearly as flattering as the 77's, but not in the way either. Had them in EW pre's too, which sound great, but I really want to try the Cranesong stuff - and what's the Phoenix? Maybe I gotta try that too.
Yeah, more gear I'd like to try the cransesong stuff too!
I just bought the Phoenix for this gig, and I like it, gotta use it more though. Heres a link http://www.phoenixaudio.net/
This is a remote gig for me, and only a mile away or so but both days so far have been 10 degrees out and snowgrudge
I have another next week, I hope it warms up, its about -15 out right now! I'm having fun getting sounds though the piano is a
Steinway grand from the 60's, real nice.
The kicker is, the player is awesome and he does all his own tech work! so in the middle of the session, he takes the piano apart and retunes or voices whatever and He's fast!
Life is good,well other than the weather!

daniel
Old 17th February 2003
  #18
Gear Addict
 
Bernd G's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Stapes Mics

Quote:
I think you will have conductive results if you email Stapes directly and ask them.
I just got a reply from him saying that they are very busy working on their next microphone design which will be out soon. No word about the price. I presume that the small diaphragm mics are noisier because of the tiny diaphragm size.

Cheers

Bernd G
Old 17th February 2003
  #19
Here for the gear
 
Deadly's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Roland
[B]If you are using a Concert grand the sound will sweep left and right depending on how the soundboard and the strings resonate. This is perfectly natural and will occur using BK's too!

This was taken into consideration, but the 2 stereo mike pairs were placed that the left and right capsules were seperated only so that they wouldn't touch each other and the distance between left and right was approximately 20cm.

The point was that the DPA pair at the distance of 3 meters from the open lid gave a lovely solid centre that the other mikes did not give us. Of course the sweeps from the sound board were intact, but as I experienced an overall stereo image was larger, more detailed and more accurate in the frequencies and resonances that the piano was producing.

And as the midified piano was playing all by itself and we could visit it and do a direct listen, which is ideal for an A/B listening/recording test.

The lovely solid centre was there for our 2 aural-receptors placed on either side of our head, hearing is believing.
Old 20th September 2003
  #20
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Magic Genie's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I've emailed Erik about the Stapes.

Have been considering the earthworks for my Steinway.

Any suggestions on Pre's? I like startlin clarity, like my Martech pre.
Old 22nd September 2003
  #21
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Magic Genie's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years

I have ordered a pair of the Stapes to try out on my Steinway B. They say their noise is about like the Earthworks TC70's.

If they sound pretty much as good as the QTC1's, that would be good.

Right now I'm using my Lawson L47 and Blueberry on the piano. I'm hoping I can get a better sound with the Stapes, and then I won't have to move mic's aorund so much.

Anybody have any info? The style of piano playing I do is very soft and delicate, not rock and roll.
Old 22nd September 2003
  #22
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RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I'm a huge fan of the Phoenix audio DRS-2, and it's my first choice for most everything. However, the best sound I've ever gotten on my C7 was with the new De Medio preamp and a couple of 184's.

-R
Old 23rd September 2003
  #23
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Deadly
Quote:
[i]
The point was that the DPA pair at the distance of 3 meters from the open lid gave a lovely solid centre that the other mikes did not give us. Of course the sweeps from the sound board were intact, but as I experienced an overall stereo image was larger, more detailed and more accurate in the frequencies and resonances that the piano was producing.
Hey Deadly, about the DPA's? what other stereo pairs have you compared to? I have Km184's and senn 441's, and oktava 012's
and I'd like to tryout some others. thanks
daniel
Old 23rd September 2003
  #24
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman
I'm a huge fan of the Phoenix audio DRS-2, and it's my first choice for most everything. However, the best sound I've ever gotten on my C7 was with the new De Medio preamp and a couple of 184's.

-R
Hey Rik, I second that The pheonix sounds good on everything! I like the front and back xlr's but If you have mics plugged into the back and then plug into the front there is no internal disconnect, you can use all 4 mics at once which is good if that's what you want but not so good if you didn't know about this featureheh
daniel
Old 24th September 2003
  #25
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littledog's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Magic Genie
I've emailed Erik about the Stapes.

Have been considering the earthworks for my Steinway.

Any suggestions on Pre's? I like startlin clarity, like my Martech pre.
sounds like you might want to check out the DACS MicAmp.
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