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Rudy Van Gelder... or is this forum too Rock & Roll?
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #151
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RADAR User ➡️
Take three or four expensive German mics with a blistering top end boost, put them real close to the instruments, add some extra distortion from a cheap overloading mic preamp through an Army Surplus radio console, put some crappy plate reverb on it, and record. Then, immediately (and for no good reason), redub the master onto a Magnatone tape deck at +6, compress the crap out of it while adding 5 db at 5000 cycles to everything. That’s the Van Gelder sound to me.

[/I]
Probably the perfect formula, “back in the day”, to smash through what he perceived (and very close to correctly) as the shortcomings of AM radio broadcast ? That they were also ‘albums’ of music rather than 45rpm singles is incidental to the bigger picture aim here.
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #152
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Probably the perfect formula, “back in the day”, to smash through what he perceived (and very close to correctly) as the shortcomings of AM radio broadcast ? That they were also ‘albums’ of music rather than 45rpm singles is incidental to the bigger picture aim here.
Yes, but remember that back in the 50s and into the early 60s people would buy any music to hear it played back on a hi fi, literally brand new tech.

There were budget records half price many of them with excellent sound that literally sold millions of copies, sold for .99 in mono.

Note that Teo Macero, Miles long term producer never worked there.

He recorded at Columbia New York and Kind of Blue and In a Silent Way breathe in a way that exposed the "tricks" a lot of jazz player's didn't like.

Great players, great music, the Blue Note stuff especially, but I see Hoffman's point about the over production.
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #153
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RADAR User ➡️
Yes, but remember that back in the 50s and into the early 60s people would buy any music to hear it played back on a hi fi, literally brand new tech.

There were budget records half price many of them with excellent sound that literally sold millions of copies, sold for .99 in mono.

Note that Teo Macero, Miles long term producer never worked there.

He recorded at Columbia New York and Kind of Blue and In a Silent Way breathe in a way that exposed the "tricks" a lot of jazz player's didn't like.

Great players, great music, the Blue Note stuff especially, but I see Hoffman's point about the over production.
Over processing as opposed to overproduction. Teo Macero edited the crap out of his records compared to the low-budget producers who worked at Rudy's.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #154
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson ➡️
Over processing as opposed to overproduction. Teo Macero edited the crap out of his records compared to the low-budget producers who worked at Rudy's.
Well put.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #155
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tourtelot's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Nice doco on Blue Note:

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Note-Rec...s%2C275&sr=1-1

D.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #156
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loujudson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RADAR User ➡️
I don't agree he was the greatest but certainely recorded the best.

I was at the studio in the 70s when I worked with Capitol Records.

Essentially, commercial studios of the day were very dead to be able to record all types of music.

They cost a lot to build, a real chamber cost $150,000, 1 million in today's dollars.

You took the dead (fully basorbed, no diffusion) sound (Producer's Workshop had rugs on every wall, lol) and added the echo chamber and created a simulated room for the music.

Rudy did one kind of music and all of ther mics were set and ready to go with a flip of switch, what Daniel Lanois calls a "station" so you don't have to get sounds for an hour.

He worked in the same room, same mics, same music genre, dedicated space of his own. He built the room.

So, a great engineer doing the same thing in the same space with the best musicians who ever lived.

There was some controversy. Some jazz musicians did not like that sound and would not work there.

Too many plug-ins?

But here's just one skeptic, noted -- and controversial -- mastering engineer Steve Hoffman, with his own more technical description of the “Van Gelder sound” (from his own forum post at stevehoffman.tv):

Take three or four expensive German mics with a blistering top end boost, put them real close to the instruments, add some extra distortion from a cheap overloading mic preamp through an Army Surplus radio console, put some crappy plate reverb on it, and record. Then, immediately (and for no good reason), redub the master onto a Magnatone tape deck at +6, compress the crap out of it while adding 5 db at 5000 cycles to everything. That’s the Van Gelder sound to me.

That description kind of destroys most of the respect I may have had for Hoffman. Wonder what he thought of the Beatles?
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #157
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson ➡️
That description kind of destroys most of the respect I may have had for Hoffman. Wonder what he thought of the Beatles?
Personally, I don't have much respect for anyone with a reputation, I worked with a lot of them.

I don't even know who Hoffman is, but he must have a measure of respect based on his website etc. Good for him.

Personally, I think the Beatles sound was wonderful craft, but they didn't make a record worth listening to after Help or so.

Not kidding, great craft, like a juggler, but the most important element of music for me, the trance, was gone, nothing nada.

That's why Glyn Johns is the best engineer/producer ever, imo, put the mics up, record the rehearsal, sample a cassette (Jumpin Jack Flash?), etc.

Listen to the performances he gets, totally relaxed, Steve Miller Band Baby's Calling Me Home.

That is production and engineering mat its best, the performance.

The legend is he coined the term "fix it in the mix", which meant that was a kick ass take, I will do some kick ass work to make sure it kicks ass in the mix.

With apologies to my friend Al Schmitt, another guy putting a tuxedo on the funky blues (Little Richard).

So, no, not a big Beatles fan, George Martin prissy un rock and roll records set the genre back 20 years.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #158
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loujudson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Ah, everybody's got one. Opinions, that is.
I like RVG and GM and all their artists.
Only rarely do I think anonymous forums are good. This may be one of those moments.
Real names impress me a lot more - with fake names, one could be a troll or a god. But I am not afraid of offending either type of mythical beast.

Maybe Bob Ohlsson and I are the only ones here that are real humans.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #159
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson ➡️
Ah, everybody's got one. Opinions, that is.
I like RVG and GM and all their artists.
Only rarely do I think anonymous forums are good. This may be one of those moments.
Real names impress me a lot more - with fake names, one could be a troll or a god. But I am not afraid of offending either type of mythical beast.

Maybe Bob Ohlsson and I are the only ones here that are real humans.
So you would respect my opinion if I was a Motown legend?

I did some things back in the day, my friend, but the words would be no different and would mean no different if I had not been involved at production level on about 20 million in record sales.

Maybe it doesn't matter who said if it is a thought worthy subjective opinion?

Dig?
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #160
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson ➡️
Over processing as opposed to overproduction. Teo Macero edited the crap out of his records compared to the low-budget producers who worked at Rudy's.
So, hey Bob, where does the Motown legend thing happen.

You started the same year I did (in LA), not sure where you were.

According to Discogs.

But other than Rare Earth, don't see any Motown credits.

Great stuff, don't get me wrong, but perhaps the least Motown of Motown artists if you get my drift.

When I think Motown legends on the tech side, think more of Russ Terrana.

No offense, I have been seeing it under your name for years and always amused me so I decided to look it up.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #161
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RADAR User ➡️
No offense, I have been seeing it under your name for years and always amused me so I decided to look it up.
Offensive it indeed is...ad hominem level now....how much deeper a hole are you going to dig for yourself ?
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #162
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Offensive it indeed is...ad hominem level now....how much deeper a hole are you going to dig for yourself ?
Oh my, someone is triggered.

Sorry, I am not a legend, was asking for a friend.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #163
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Offensive it indeed is...ad hominem level now....how much deeper a hole are you going to dig for yourself ?
Are you a legend?
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #164
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Offensive it indeed is...ad hominem level now....how much deeper a hole are you going to dig for yourself ?
Also, I am not sure when you were educated, so I will say this slowly.

If someone self-claims a title which implies some achievement, subjective though it may be, asking about that achievement is not ad hominum it is asking politely for bona fides.

Who's hole?
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #165
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RADAR User ➡️
Oh my, someone is triggered.

Sorry, I am not a legend, was asking for a friend.
Your friend is unable to inquire for themselves ? Deflection.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #166
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Your friend is unable to inquire for themselves ? Deflection.
Dude, it's a joke, chill.

The only Motown credit I can find for Bob on Discogs - please correct if I am wrong - is for the Rare Earth in Concert album.

It's a big album on a Motown sub label called Rare Earth of course, but here are the engineering credits:

Recording engineers: Cal Harris, Nate Jennings, John Lewis, Ken Sands, Bob Olhsson, Orson Lewis, Criteria Recording Company
Technical engineers: Don Boehrat, Gurdev Sandhu, Michael Grace, Don Fostie
Mastering engineer: Russ Terrana


I am curious because when I was VP of Arista Records, 1975 I believe (Clive Davis bought Bell Records to be the basis for Arista and we used that office for awhile) I was in the Motown building when Russ was there, I beleive.

I wprked many times doing demos (Stephen Bishop was one) at the studio downstairs.

You can look it up on the internet.

Sooo, you are like some guy at a party inserting himself into a conversation you have no idea about it would seem. No?
Old 3 days ago
  #167
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Jules inserted the "legend" label. I engineered at Motown in Detroit between 1965 and 1972 working with all of our artists. Nobody got credits before around 1971 because eight to ten engineers worked on every album.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #168
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson ➡️
Jules inserted the "legend" label. I engineered at Motown in Detroit between 1965 and 1972 working with all of our artists. Nobody got credits before around 1971 because eight to ten engineers worked on every album.
Intersting Bob and I know what you mean about credits in general pre-1970.

As far as I am concerned anyone who did anything at Motown pre-LA is a legend and I am sure you did much more than that.

There were secrets there!

Not patronizing, I would love so see the real credits.

Rock On, Motown Legend!
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #169
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson ➡️
Jules inserted the "legend" label. I engineered at Motown in Detroit between 1965 and 1972 working with all of our artists. Nobody got credits before around 1971 because eight to ten engineers worked on every album.
So what about Russ Terrana, something different or right place at the right place or both?
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #170
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RADAR User ➡️
You can look it up on the internet.
https://youtu.be/RdCsig1b4G4
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #171
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loujudson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Thanks for posting that! I only mentioned Bob O. because I know him personally, and he uses his actual name online. That video contains everything you might want to know about his Motown career. I met him in the early 70s in SF and learned a LOT from him.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #172
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson ➡️
Thanks for posting that! I only mentioned Bob O. because I know him personally, and he uses his actual name online. That video contains everything you might want to know about his Motown career. I met him in the early 70s in SF and learned a LOT from him.
Here's another: https://youtu.be/0IF_tlm0sOA
Old 3 days ago
  #173
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I should try to write them down before my brain gets too hazy!

During my first month, barely knowing what I was doing, I worked in the cutting room on five top ten singles. The very first song I ever worked on was Stevie Wonder's "Uptight." I got yanked out of the lathe room and given a crash course in recording and mixing around 1968. My mentors for that were Cal Harris, who had come from Gold Star by way of United/Western in LA and Joe Atkinson who came to us from Atlantic in New York. It has always frustrated me that I never got to be an assistant until I worked in film during the '90s.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #174
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Awesome thanks all, on my list to watch.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #175
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RADAR User ➡️
So what about Russ Terrana, something different or right place at the right place or both?
Russ moved to LA a few months after I left.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #176
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson ➡️
I should try to write them down before my brain gets too hazy!

During my first month, barely knowing what I was doing, I worked in the cutting room on five top ten singles. The very first song I ever worked on was Stevie Wonder's "Uptight." I got yanked out of the lathe room and given a crash course in recording and mixing around 1968. My mentors for that were Cal Harris, who had come from Gold Star by way of United/Western in LA and Joe Atkinson who came to us from Atlantic in New York. It has always frustrated me that I never got to be an assistant until I worked in film during the '90s.
Nice, Gold Star is Phil Spector's room, Santa Monica and Vine, lots of history there, you can feel it when you walk in lol.

I am going to take a look at the doc.

I did an album for Island with Lee Garrett, who grew up with Stevie - he was also blind - and co-wrote Signed Sealed -- in 1976 and he told lots of stories about the old days (pre-LA) at Motown and the studio.

You might know him, too.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #177
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson ➡️
Russ moved to LA a few months after I left.
I was saying he seems to get a lot of credit for everything after he started there, 89 top ten hits etc.

Question is was he an innovator, did he add/change the sound like Tom Dowd (imo) or John Palladino or similar or inherit a great ship and sail it the way it should be sailed?
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #178
Lives for gear
 
Sharp11's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RADAR User ➡️
Are you a legend?
You keep demanding people - some of whom post under their real names - produce credits and curriculum vitae, yet you post anonymously with grand and boisterous accounts of gold records and vast amounts of experience - while displaying massive ignorance with almost all things audio related - even basic knowledge escapes you.

It’s fascinating and amusing to watch. Good fodder for a slow Saturday night, but it sure is weird.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #179
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 ➡️
You keep demanding people - some of whom post under their real names - produce credits and curriculum vitae, yet you post anonymously with grand and boisterous accounts of gold records and vast amounts of experience - while displaying massive ignorance with almost all things audio related - even basic knowledge escapes you.

It’s fascinating and amusing to watch. Good fodder for a slow Saturday night, but it sure is weird.
Hey, Junior, what to do you kids say when someone, what is it self-owns or falls for a troll....read on...

You reacted to a troll but thanks for your comments.

I know who Bob is and I PM'd him first so he would understand.

Also, its a little bit of art for people like me that come to GS just to see where Bob poked his nose in.

It was supposed to trigger idiots like you and the Studer58 guy were "offended" by me questioning someone credits.

So how about you relax and worry about your own sh*t.

A guy who survived Motown in his 20s and the music biz for over 50 years does not need you to be offended for him.

My troll by the way, Bob has nothing to do with it.

By the way, as I said above anyone who did anything at Motown in the late 60s pre-LA is a legend. Dude has some chops in a lot of different tech axes too, if you dig!
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #180
Gear Addict
 
ElmoHope's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RADAR User ➡️
Question is was he an innovator, did he add/change the sound like Tom Dowd (imo)...
Tom Dowd screwed up John Coltrane's Giant Steps sessions on Atlantic. It's a weird-sounding album, very direct and dry, and made Trane's tone sound kinda weird.

You can contrast how Trane sounds (or the rhythm section for that matter) on Kind of Blue which was recorded within months of each other in March-May 1959. Night and day as to how they sound.

I love RVG, but for me, the sound magic didn't consistently happen until he moved his studio to Englewood Cliffs. Of course, there were many incredible recordings at Hackensack, but sound-wise it was often hit or miss.

My favorite jazz engineer of that era was Roy DuNann though, less colored than RVG but just as vibey.



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