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Comparative tests DPA vs Schoeps vs Sonodore for plucked string instruments ?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #31
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush ➡️
[. . .] The greats never recorded themselves. [. . .]

Impeding artistic progress by not accepting close sound??
Thanks for your thoughts and perspective, Hudson. I carefully strain each of your words and phrases for every last distillable drop of value. They are much appreciated.

But we do ultimately have widely different thoughts with respect to guitar recordings.

Intimacy remains a primary objective—but I prefer not to derail Sasha’s thread further than I already have. . .while reserving the right to respond for the sake of art or humor.


Kind regards,

Ray H.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #32
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Interesting and amusing…recording orthodoxy bordering on doxology, with a side twist of Talibanesque righteousness, for piquancy ! No space to entertain Plush’s very reasonable continuum of proximity and detail either ? Does any other instrument suffer this level of scrutiny ?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Interesting and amusing…recording orthodoxy bordering on doxology, with a side twist of Talibanesque righteousness, for piquancy ! No space to entertain Plush’s very reasonable continuum of proximity and detail either ? Does any other instrument suffer this level of scrutiny ?
I’m not following your train of thought, Ray?

I believe Hudson understands my position. He is a very sharp guy. We disagree. If he somehow truly doesn’t understand, I’m glad to “entertain [his] very reasonable continuum of proximity and detail”.

I was rather looking to yield back to Sasha’s more pressing mic recordings, resources, and opinion queries.

I suspect you understand as well, and are just having fun. That’s ok. But let me know if you require help with the translation. Either way, I love you much.


Zero Wing,

Ray H.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #34
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ISedlacek's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush ➡️
Here I prefer to offer the recording of the guitar in a way that guitars are heard. From an appropriate distance in salon or small chamber hall environment. Never from close up.
It depends ... By recording from a distance one may lose the intimate details, the volume (size) of the sound etc. In many classical guitar recordings done in this way, the guitar tends to sound a bit like a small ukulele (that somehow prevails). And when you listen on speakers that are already at some distance, it is better if the guitar is recorded rather close (as if the player is sitting there in front of you), if recorded at a big distance too then the distance is already double for the listener.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush ➡️

It's a really bad idea for the player to record themselves
No, it is actually very good idea and if the player knows how to do it, how to create the sound, how to work with the sound in post production etc. then there is nothing better than this. Then he can follow very nice creative process, he is not limited by the short time when the hired recordist is there, he can play at any time he likes and when he is really inspired (he can suddenly get up at 2 AM and play something really amazing that he would never play during the stressed limited official recording session). Plus the shortly hired man may not have the same idea about the music and sound as the creative artist and the result may be quite different than the musician's idea was but it will be already too late...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush ➡️
Much better to hire a good recordist and concentrate on playing. The greats never recorded themselves.
It is not much better in many cases. It is nice to be like a painter who himself patiently works with brushes, colours, canvas etc., selects them, combines them and is alone during it (without some "painting technician" . And also quite many recordings of the "greats" are not really very great. Like for example recordings of many great violinists whose violins sound thin, small, edgy and 2D in the recorded result - even the contemporary ones with obviously no budget limits, (sometimes sounding like if recorded in the bathroom - like many recordings of Paganini Caprices, Bach solo sonatas etc.) many classical guitar recordings etc.

Of course, in case of orchestras etc., it is better if somebody else is recording. But in case of a solo creative artist it may be the best if he can work on everything in his own creative space, following closely his own music and sound ideas. Of course, he has to learn a bit about it which not everyone is ready to do ... Otherwise he is indeed dependent only on an occasional "hired recordist" and very limited time for that and the result will not be in his hands.

Both options have their positive and negative aspects. But to say "It's a really bad idea for the player to record themselves" is really bad idea Of course, it is bad for the recordist who is not hired then (and who says that)

Last edited by ISedlacek; 1 week ago at 08:25 AM..
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #35
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
It’s great that players of any instrument are passionate about their practice and art…and it’s only fitting that they would wish to have it recorded well.

Where this gets caught down a rabbit hole is where that representation diverges significantly from historical, broadcast and commercial release norms…ie the bell-curve of ‘acceptable/desirable’ along Plush’s continuum.

It just seems the ‘guitar detail’ crowd are in danger of elevating and fetishizing string squeaks, nail scrapes and fret buzz over a more muted yet satisfying and distant perspective.

Moreover….they’ll label these blemishes attributes ! To my thinking that’s simply taking the ‘player perspective’ too far down a wrong track.

Maybe hearing those blemishes rendered with 3D realism and in clear transient-rich detail somehow validates their presence, and serves to encourage more of same by the player ?

Last edited by studer58; 1 week ago at 09:04 AM..
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #36
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayHeath ➡️
And between a recording engineer/producer who prefers aesthetics of the past and a musician/recording engineer/producer who has a different aesthetic vision for the future. There are more than two categories available here.

I’m not claiming to be Stevie Wonder, but things do change. Culture moves onward.

Ray H.
this not only goes for the guitar: almost all people recording unamplified music, regardless of genre, are 'recordists', meaning they try to record instruments with the balance between direct, reflected and ambient sound baked in but are not much into 'mixing', in the sense that they shy away from using electronic filters, adjusting dynamics or tweaking 'artificial efx' much if at all - this inevitably leads to a somewhat typical soundfield, regardless of the type of music or size of the ensemble - which one may like or not (so much).

i would expect a professional to have the means* and experience to credibly create very different representations/i had heard recordings/mixes made by amateurs that were excellent in their specific genre - 'tempora mutantur nos et mutamur in illis'; except for the classical sound 'engineer'!



* got almost nothing to do with gear which is genre-agnostic (as i am for the most part in terms of my approach/technique, even though i have clear preferences which of course are reflected in the depth of my experience).
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #37
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ISedlacek's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
By the way - it would be nice and also a kind of respectful if some of the over posting anonymous members above, with very strict, detailed and ever present opinions stopped to be just some anonymous nicknames and showed us who they really are, their background, references to their own work etc. so that we know from which standpoint they are really talking and how seriously we should take them

Not to be able and willing to introduce themselves and yet spreading very authoritative posts all around does not sound exactly "in tune"
Old 1 week ago
  #38
Gear Maniac
 
Haigbabe's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cawa ➡️
I'm currently considering all of these options for recording classical guitar in A/B stereo :

- Schoeps CMC6 with either mk2 or mk4 capsules
- DPA either 4011 or 4006
- Sonodore either rcm-402 or ldm-54

Sonodore sounds like the DPAs but more with a more balanced tone and better spatialization. I can't find good comparison recordings between these mics and other brands though, so I can't know for sure.

All of these cited above are omni, which should be the norm I guess for recording in a good sounding space (small church or chapel).

But I can't shake the fact that a pair of mk4 sounds so detailed and precise while not losing attractiveness and fluidity that I don't actually know if I should record with that or with omnis, even in a great space.
I should add that I like a very close sound (but with spatialization, which is a paradox I guess...), closer than what the majority of professionnal recordings offer.

What do you guys think and where could I hear some comparison recordings between these ?
Hello cawa,

Great questions and a great line up mics to compare.

I hear you when you say you like the Schoeps MK4 sound. It is good, and something that players often like. It was recently my go-to for lots of reasons but has for the last couple of years (previously the 21 capsule) been replaced by the Rode TF5. It has been getting lots of appreciation from very good players.

Usually I will put up a pair of Sonodore mics as well, either the 402s or the 54s, sometimes the Schoeps MK2H.

But your criteria has a number of variables that none of us can guess at; instruments, perceived sound, room, recording chain, genre, the list goes on.

I’m not sure what your desired result is but it’s definitely worth hiring or borrowing some mics to try out. Would this be possible? And maybe if you can get some mics to try, get some friends, colleagues, recording engineer, to be part of your trials, at that point it helps to have not only your own gut feeling, but also the ears of people you respect.

It sounds as if you have some wonderful times ahead choosing good tools. Enjoy the voyage and keep us posted on your journey.

HB
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #39
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Plush's Avatar
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
I am enjoying this discussion. Some guys record in their way, other good engineers record in their way. I find a new type of engineer emerging who specializes in New Music.

S/he records micro-details and does overdubs to honor the score which often cannot be played in concert or all together because of micro tonal gestures and aiming to capture imaginary auras.

For Ivo: Hello, exotic instrument Man. You record yourself in a unique genre that you have made yourself. Only YOU know how you want the sound so you should record yourself. No argument there. I love your results for over a decade.

Others should not record themselves. I'm pretty firm on that.
It usually ends up with the brain split between recording and playing when the brain should be 100% focused on playing.

There are many ways to skin a cat.

Far out, maaaaaaaaaaannnnnn--do your own thing.
Old 1 week ago
  #40
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regal1956's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cawa
I'm currently considering all of these options for recording classical guitar in A/B stereo :

- Schoeps CMC6 with either mk2 or mk4 capsules
- DPA either 4011 or 4006
- Sonodore either rcm-402 or ldm-54
In my opinion, you won’t go wrong with any of these. You’re looking at the cream of the crop. With the right preamp and a good recording space, you may get results that rival commercially made recordings. In fact, as you probably know, it’ll be your playing and the recording space that have the biggest influence on your recording quality.

I have no experience with Schoeps or Sonodore, or for that matter, any top of the line DPA. (My bank account frowns on hefty expenditures.) But I’ve used a DPA 2011C spaced pair for years. Here’s one of my better results:



This was recorded in my sonically challenged bedroom. With a better recording space, doubtless I could do better. That said, it sounds pretty good to me.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #41
Here for the gear
 
regal1956's Avatar
I’ll add a thought. Once recorded sound rises to a certain level of excellence, it’s questionable that anything better is worth the effort and expense. As we know, it’s the performance that really sells a recording. A great performance will find an audience. A poor performance won’t be saved by a superior recording.

Over the years, I’ve heard a lot of “audiophile” recordings. Many of them capture performances that are mediocre. These are recordings I never listen to more than once. I just don’t care about beautifully recorded “meh” performances. I have, however, repeatedly listened to abysmal recordings of great performances.

Extracting the last bit of pristine sound in a recording can become a black hole of time and money. At best, a recording setup should be sonically invisible—it gets out of the way and shifts the spotlight to the performance, where it truly belongs. This can be done with any microphone under serious consideration here. At such a rarified level, the choice is a matter of taste. If one records a great performance with a Schoeps matched pair, it’s unlikely anyone will say: “a shame it wasn’t recorded with a Royer R-122V.”
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #42
Here for the gear
 
Thank you HB for the words of advice and encouragement, I'll keep that in mind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by regal1956 ➡️
Extracting the last bit of pristine sound in a recording can become a black hole of time and money. At best, a recording setup should be sonically invisible—it gets out of the way and shifts the spotlight to the performance, where it truly belongs. This can be done with any microphone under serious consideration here. At such a rarified level, the choice is a matter of taste. If one records a great performance with a Schoeps matched pair, it’s unlikely anyone will say: “a shame it wasn’t recorded with a Royer R-122V.”
Yes regal you're right. Thanks for the comments.
Btw your recording is interesting, the strange twice-a-second reverb is making me dizzy though, but it's worth listening to.
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