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Can we talk about micing a grand piano again?
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #31
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kludgeaudio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
as plush correctly mentioned, time aligning does affect the soundstage and specifically the depth of a mix but one can gain a certain impact/minimize smearing of transients; i therefore do occasionaly align spots to (coincident) mains - even very precisely, meaning in terms of time and phase (by using apf's) - but i then mostly use efx to re-establish a sense of space.
A lot of it depends on how much spotting you're doing. If I have a spot mike on an orchestral soloist, I can nudge a little bit of that into the mix with the main pair without affecting anything else in the mix much. But if I am having to add so much of the spot mike that the leakage is causing tonal changes or audible smearing to the rest of the orchestra, a delay will fix that.

If you have to build an orchestral mix entirely out of spots and sectionals, say because the room is horrible or the noise floor is high (and I have recorded concerts in shopping malls where both were the case), delays can be your salvation.

On the gripping hand there are people who like that smearing. They want the "film soundtrack" sound where everything is forward but not detailed. I don't like the Enoch Light sound but some people do.
--scott
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #32
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio ➡️
A lot of it depends on how much spotting you're doing. If I have a spot mike on an orchestral soloist, I can nudge a little bit of that into the mix with the main pair without affecting anything else in the mix much. But if I am having to add so much of the spot mike that the leakage is causing tonal changes or audible smearing to the rest of the orchestra, a delay will fix that.

If you have to build an orchestral mix entirely out of spots and sectionals, say because the room is horrible or the noise floor is high (and I have recorded concerts in shopping malls where both were the case), delays can be your salvation.

On the gripping hand there are people who like that smearing. They want the "film soundtrack" sound where everything is forward but not detailed. I don't like the Enoch Light sound but some people do.
--scott
some setups/repertoire imo not only dictate to use coincident main mics but also make time alignment mandatory (such as drum/percussion ensembles)... - that said, a grand puano is a fairly percussive instrument!

(my desk has a neat feature (temporary ganging of any parameter across as many channels/groups/auxes/mains/matrices as wanted) which - once delays are dialled in - allows for very fast comparison between different settings)
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #33
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🎧 15 years
I have a very old friend that is still maintaining an old JAG XKE that he will put on the road for a short ride on a perfect Sunday afternoon. The pleasure he derives from these infrequent drives is well worth the enormous time and expense he is willing to endure. Much the same could be said of folks addicted to playing acoustic pianos; the feel of the action and direct sonic feedback is their mania. I certainly can identify with these addictions as a vintage guitar player however, unlike my piano playing friends, I can do very well with a single Flea 47 to capture both my guitar and vocal simultaneously.
Any way you cut it maintaining, micing and two mix processing an acoustic piano is a king sized pain in the ass for both studio recording and particularly for live concert capture. One of the greatest benefits of the digital revolution is the Yamaha Motif digital piano and it's related cousins. When the ultimate recorded destination is digital, Yamaha will probably do it better with their Motif than most us could possibly hope for, regardless of the player, piano or gear deployed.
Hugh
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #34
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Wavefront's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse ➡️
Much the same could be said of folks addicted to playing acoustic pianos
professional pianists
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse ➡️
the feel of the action and direct sonic feedback is their mania
an essential part of the artform to which they have dedicated countless hours of training and practice.

Fixed it for you
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #35
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🎧 15 years
I am not about to enter a verbal whizzing contest with acoustic piano players. To clear the air please try to stipulate the accuracy of the following observations.

1) Most all accomplished musicians have dedicated countless hours of training and practice.
2) Guitars and most other string instruments are very easy to tune given the Peterson strobe digital software available with a clip on, or for an I-Phone: this is where acoustic pianos are at a decided disadvantage.
3) Key activated piano loops remove the chore of storing, transporting, isolating & micing an acoustic piano. Unlike most other string instruments there is little if any significant sonic difference between the factory digital loops and the absolute best recorded digital tracks of any acoustic piano.

For these and several other reasons the digital processing revolution is placing acoustic drum kits and grand pianos on the project studio obsolescence watch list. Within a two hour drive of my home there are a pair of world class acoustic guitar set-up technicians. (John Arnold & Ken Hooper) Their renowned luthier skills are following in the huge footprints of the local luthier legend, Wayne C. Henderson. My buddy Andy has a 1926 Steinway baby grand with an App red sound board that he loves to play: but it needs a pin block replacement and the logistics involved in that needed work is the ultimate reason the old vintage piano was sold to Andy.
Brent Hahn, in a similar thread, has identified some of the esoteric reasoning supporting maintaining a grand piano for A/V professional performance recording. IMO after the sonically beautiful acoustic piano's A/D conversion, the pre recorded loops generally sound better with much less effort.
Hugh

Last edited by hughshouse; 2 weeks ago at 01:25 PM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #36
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jnorman's Avatar
When I was buying the piano for my studio, I got opinions from the three pianists I work with regularly, and none of them wanted to play a digital piano - they all wanted a “real” piano.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #37
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman ➡️
When I was buying the piano for my studio, I got opinions from the three pianists I work with regularly, and none of them wanted to play a digital piano - they all wanted a “real” piano.
Shocking!

I think this really boils down to the difference between 'keyboard players' and pianists.
Old 1 week ago
  #38
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NorseHorse's Avatar
Arrow

Here's one with Sennheiser Twins spaced approximately 40cm and out 45*, placed diagonal from the piano.

Attached Thumbnails
Can we talk about micing a grand piano again?-cba-6d-8988.jpg  
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #39
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kludgeaudio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorseHorse ➡️
Here's one with Sennheiser Twins spaced approximately 40cm and out 45*, placed diagonal from the piano.
The big thing about this is that the microphones are raised up high enough that you're not dealing with the reflections off the lid and the consequent comb filtering. This is really good.

It's awfully close-in for my tastes but my piano teacher would have considered it too distant. If everybody liked the same thing they'd all be listening to the Horowitz record and we'd all be out of a job.
--scott
Old 1 week ago
  #40
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🎧 15 years
This sounds lovely. How did you configure the two capsule arrangement, and is that another one at the tail? Thanks.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #41
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
imo hugh got a point - which is that for less demanding situations, many piano players but also the audience would be better off if a digital piano and a self-powered 2-way speaker could get used...

(which tradition mostly prevents)

...at least when considering the costs: over here, renting a steinway costs around chf2000.-- per day: this includes the rental of the instrument, transportation from a nearby piano house and a capable piano tech tuning the instrument twice.

to make things worse, a model c (or even d) won't do the trick in many amplified situations so in addition to the piano, you need rent highly capable gear (and of course hire an experienced mix tech) to get a grand piano to sound right...

short: it's sheer luxury to use a grand piano as a standard in many situations!
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #42
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Sure, and then just program in the song, and voila, you don’t even need a pianist anymore…
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #43
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
...or buy a steinway spirio! ;-)
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #44
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NorseHorse's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsyourself ➡️
This sounds lovely. How did you configure the two capsule arrangement, and is that another one at the tail? Thanks.
I just checked the original project.

Front: 0db
Rear: -5db
Flanks: 0db (8090s)

The tail mics were muted (but did sound good in their own way...)
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #45
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joelpatterson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman ➡️
Sure, and then just program in the song, and voila, you don’t even need a pianist anymore…
Put all that in an empty hall-- and you've done away with the need for an audience!
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #46
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorseHorse ➡️
I just checked the original project.

Front: 0db
Rear: -5db
Flanks: 0db (8090s)

The tail mics were muted (but did sound good in their own way...)
Thankyou, Mr Horse!
Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #47
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Tommy-boy's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorseHorse ➡️
Here's one with Sennheiser Twins spaced approximately 40cm and out 45*, placed diagonal from the piano.
Thank you for posting this performance. Was that just one pair of mics (the Twins)? no mics further out? Reverb coming from the space, or added in post?

Thx,
Tom
Old 19 hours ago | Show parent
  #48
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy-boy ➡️
Thank you for posting this performance. Was that just one pair of mics (the Twins)? no mics further out? Reverb coming from the space, or added in post?

Thx,
Tom
He has just said, and you can see the arrangement in the photo.
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