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Baroque ensemble 5 mic arrays seeking advice
Old 24th April 2022 | Show parent
  #31
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Poulton ➡️
I like the VR ribbons very much, I have the RNR1 ribbons too, but the mounting of those in Blumlein crossed fig8s is a bit of an ordeal.

One thing about sE and the RNR1s which is troublesome, is that they have, to my knowledge, had three separate frequency response charts displayed on their website. The first of these, when the mic was launched, displayed a lift around 15kH like some condenser microphones, then going out to 20kH and lifting beyond that, The advertising gave this as a much vaunted reason for purchasing them. I considered using them for main pair work with the extended frequency advertised. Since then, the 2nd frequency chart displayed had something akin to the Samar ribbin mic, more on the flat side and extending out to 25kH, and now the third frequency chart on display on their site is nothing like either of those. It has a response that varies wildly from the other two and shows a response that starts a roll of at 3kH and is 12d down at 15kH with a little apologetic lift as it approaches 20kH. . It would be nice to be able to rely on specs from manufacturers.

I don't suppose the rep from sE will respond to this, although I know he reads this site, I'm not sure how he would justify the difference in their sales patter.

I haven't experienced the noise that Tony speaks of, but I know that others have, it does make you wonder whether there was a later tweaking of the frequency response to eliminate noise and that perhaps this is the reason for the radical changes in the frequency charts that are advertised on sE's site.

I think the VR1 is an excellent mic (and not a second choice to any other) for use as a main pair when ribbons are required, and it's very easy to mount as well.

There are some excellently produced sample comparisons on this site somewhere, between various ribbons mics, and the VR1 sat very nicely, just a little lighter and with not as full a low end (but enough) as the 4038. It had a well balanced sound, I was very impressed with it on those samples.
I got very confused last time I checked the graphs of the RNR1.
That was not what I remembered from the earlier ones and certainly not to boost any claims about extended frequency range.
I blamed then my memory and my aging brain. But I was not that wrong after all.
I know the extended range was achieved electronically by Neve and not acoustically as in the Vr range. Wonder what is going on, something with Neve perhaps?
Old 24th April 2022 | Show parent
  #32
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggelos ➡️
I got very confused last time I checked the graphs of the RNR1.
That was not what I remembered from the earlier ones and certainly not to boost any claims about extended frequency range.
I blamed then my memory and my aging brain. But I was not that wrong after all.
I know the extended range was achieved electronically by Neve and not acoustically as in the Vr range. Wonder what is going on, something with Neve perhaps?
I contacted Neve quite a long time ago and asked how the 25kH had been achieved. I asked if it was achieved via the simple Neve Class A amplifier, but was told that it was not. The extended range, I was told, was achieved via the ribbon, and I assume the design of the sculpted housing it is in.

I've written to sE to ask why the published curve has changed so radically.

I did wonder whether by doing so they would hope to sell more of their own ribbon mics. It might be that there is a royalty payment on the Neve design that is not on their own. This is of course all supposition, but what explanation will be brought forward, if any, I don't know.
Old 24th April 2022 | Show parent
  #33
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🎧 10 years
I'm going to add to this by saying that my RNR1s do not sound at all like the present frequency curve suggests, they are more open and natural sounding. I would imagine if they were like the frequency curve shown they would be warm, relatively dark and dull.

I just have no idea what's going on with sE, if a company that manufactures microphones needs to have a stab at three radically different frequency charts, there must be something adrift, somewhere.

Last edited by Geoff Poulton; 24th April 2022 at 11:01 PM..
Old 24th April 2022 | Show parent
  #34
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Poulton ➡️
I contacted Neve quite a long time ago and asked how the 25kH had been achieved. I asked if it was achieved via the simple Neve Class A amplifier, but was told that it was not. The extended range, I was told, was achieved via the ribbon, and I assume the design of the sculpted housing it is in.

I've written to sE to ask why the published curve has changed so radically.

I did wonder whether by doing so they would hope to sell more of their own ribbon mics. It might be that there is a royalty payment on the Neve design that is not on their own. This is of course all supposition, but what explanation will be brought forward, if any, I don't know.
SE site has an other story.
But Neve could be partly right cause the first transformer works with the ribbon and it is the way it loads it that affects its response . It is a combination of both.
I wonder if they have modified the mic and now that is the true new graph.

https://www.seelectronics.com/se-rnr1-rupert-neve-mic
http://recordinghacks.com/microphone...ectronics/RNR1
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews...ectronics-rnr1
Old 24th April 2022 | Show parent
  #35
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggelos ➡️
SE site has an other story.
But Neve could be partly right cause the first transformer works with the ribbon and it is the way it loads it that affects its response . It is a combination of both.
I wonder if they have modified the mic and now that is the true new graph.

https://www.seelectronics.com/se-rnr1-rupert-neve-mic
http://recordinghacks.com/microphone...ectronics/RNR1
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews...ectronics-rnr1
The graph you've shown here on the recording hacks review is the one that sE told me was the accurate one following on from the graph they used on the mic's launch, but it is radically different from the one they promote on their site now.
I've had a reply from the company and they are looking into it and will reply, so we might yet have an answer. It looks to me more like what might be expected for their traditional ribbon XR1, not their flagship extended frequency ribbon microphone. It just doesn't make any sense.

This is an interesting video for both the VR2 and RNR1, it's interesting to be able to view the positioning whilst hearing the samples.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioiS929NsYg

Last edited by Geoff Poulton; 17th May 2022 at 11:47 PM..
Old 25th April 2022
  #36
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🎧 5 years
Sounds great, Studer. Love the sound on the strings. You settled on the right set of mics, IMO. It's amazing how affordable those VR2s are for the sound!
Old 25th April 2022 | Show parent
  #37
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by shosty ➡️
Sounds great, Studer. Love the sound on the strings. You settled on the right set of mics, IMO. It's amazing how affordable those VR2s are for the sound!
I'm still exploring their strengths and weaknesses...I often liken mics to the tools in a mechanic's garage: the pro mechanic who derives income from his tools will buy the best, knowing they are a long term investment and won't fail in terms of longeivity, quality and reliability. The pro will also obtain (maybe borrow when needed) a specialist tool he might only need once every year or two...but when it's needed, nothing else will do.

The amateur mechanic buys enough tools to get him by, probably justifying low price/low quality purchases because they're getting light duty (and irregular) work....and not deriving income for the user.

Different strokes for different folks. If you're consistently buying at the lower end of the quality/cost continuum (knowing you'll buy better quality later), that can result in double purchases, and work out more expensive than buying quality the first time ! Buying used can get you up the ladder faster too...

The VR2's seem to make a good side mic, in an M/S array ! The MKH8020 falls into a different camp: truthful, accurate, unflattering...which maybe puts more premium on getting placement and quality of source instrument/acoustic right
Old 2nd May 2022 | Show parent
  #38
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
I'm still exploring their strengths and weaknesses...I often liken mics to the tools in a mechanic's garage: the pro mechanic who derives income from his tools will buy the best, knowing they are a long term investment and won't fail in terms of longeivity, quality and reliability. The pro will also obtain (maybe borrow when needed) a specialist tool he might only need once every year or two...but when it's needed, nothing else will do.

The amateur mechanic buys enough tools to get him by, probably justifying low price/low quality purchases because they're getting light duty (and irregular) work....and not deriving income for the user.

Different strokes for different folks. If you're consistently buying at the lower end of the quality/cost continuum (knowing you'll buy better quality later), that can result in double purchases, and work out more expensive than buying quality the first time ! Buying used can get you up the ladder faster too...

The VR2's seem to make a good side mic, in an M/S array ! The MKH8020 falls into a different camp: truthful, accurate, unflattering...which maybe puts more premium on getting placement and quality of source instrument/acoustic right
Good analogy. Now, you are a pro, right Studer?

I liken the tools to string instruments...Even a decent student cello, in the hands of Yo Yo Ma, will sound excellent!
Old 2nd May 2022 | Show parent
  #39
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🎧 5 years
I'd say a student cello in the hands of Ma would sound musically excellent, but no player can give an instrument with rotten tone, a beautiful one.
Old 3rd May 2022 | Show parent
  #40
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by M50k ➡️
I'd say a student cello in the hands of Ma would sound musically excellent, but no player can give an instrument with rotten tone, a beautiful one.
Yes, but I said decent student cello No, I think a decent student cello would still sound quite good, tone-wise, in the hands of Yo Yo Ma.

I've tried some surprisingly nice sounding student cellos in the $4000-$6000 rage - definitely not rotten!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #41
Gear Nut
 
Thank you for this....very informative to listen to the samples!
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #42
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by shosty ➡️
Yes, but I said decent student cello No, I think a decent student cello would still sound quite good, tone-wise, in the hands of Yo Yo Ma.

I've tried some surprisingly nice sounding student cellos in the $4000-$6000 rage - definitely not rotten!
I agree, and just to put a different slant on this. I'm a pro trombonist, but if you were to give me the Duport Stradivarius cello (as if) I could make it sound like the cheapest student cello, quite easily!
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