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Oldschool ECM Recording - Making Of
Old 13th April 2022 | Show parent
  #31
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
same same

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad ➡️
'live from the floor' recording (versus) 'studio recording'
to me, there is no difference between various situations and locations in terms of equipment: in fact, i based my entire rig to be suitable for production rehearsals, soundchecks, live mixing (foh and/or monitors), location recording, studio recording and mixing, mastering and broadcasting.

of course i do not schlepp all my outboard to every concert hall (say for recording a string quartet) but i can scale my rig from rather small to very large as needed, without ever having to change my mixing platform/desk (which has led me to adopt an approach of 'always mixing' and get things done right on the spot).
Old 13th April 2022 | Show parent
  #32
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idee und klang's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by etiefenthaler ➡️
Intersting thread, may I share a Jazz Octett recording I did last Summer.

All in one room. Musicians used HP monitoring mostly on one ear.


Erich

edit: I dont want to hijack this thread.- but there are quite some similarities in recording situation - beside the strings. Bass would have to be amplified - hence the HP.
Most difficult setting was for isolating strings during louder tunes.
The two miks for Tp was because of he played different instruments - where I sometimes preferred the ribbon over C12 type mic.
Please note: the youtube sound is a poor carbon copy of the original high res recording..
Very nice! Strings in a Jazz Context with other instruments, especially drums is always a challenge.

Glad if some more share some "Jazz in one Room" Recordings:-)

D.
Old 11th May 2022
  #33
Gear Maniac
@ idee und klang

Daniel,

could you some more infos on the room? How big is it (shape)? How much treatment?
Up to now I'm only dooing location recordings and live mixing, but I have a chance to rent a ca. 120sqm room cheaply (by current standards...) and would love to turn it into a live recording / some concerts sort of place.

Cheers, Peer
Old 11th May 2022 | Show parent
  #34
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idee und klang's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeerSoe ➡️
@ idee und klang

Daniel,

could you some more infos on the room? How big is it (shape)? How much treatment?
Up to now I'm only dooing location recordings and live mixing, but I have a chance to rent a ca. 120sqm room cheaply (by current standards...) and would love to turn it into a live recording / some concerts sort of place.

Cheers, Peer
Hi Peer

It's a Studio and an Auditorium, the acoustic is rather dry and controlled. The Idea is, that musician can perform and recored, also in larger formations, and everybody hears each other in a good way. Its probably 150 till 200 square meters and 9 Meters high, something like this.
I'll attach a picture where you see the room from the musicians side.
( There is a 2nd room, that is similar big, but more acoustic sounding. But to record Jazz and all in one room, it works wonderful in that Black room..)
Cheers, Dd
Attached Thumbnails
Oldschool ECM Recording - Making Of-bildschirmfoto-2022-05-11-um-13.43.45.jpg  
Old 11th May 2022 | Show parent
  #35
Gear Maniac
Hey Daniel,

thanks for the fast response.

This:
Quote:
Originally Posted by idee und klang ➡️
The Idea is, that musician can perform and recored, also in larger formations, and everybody hears each other in a good way.
sounds exactly like what I had in mind with "my" room. Do you think its reasonable to attempt something like this with a smaller Room? Ceilling should be slightly above 4m (I can measure on Saturday), the room is L-shaped with the main rectangle being something like 8*12.

Cheers, Peer
Old 12th May 2022 | Show parent
  #36
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idee und klang's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeerSoe ➡️
Hey Daniel,

thanks for the fast response.

This: sounds exactly like what I had in mind with "my" room. Do you think its reasonable to attempt something like this with a smaller Room? Ceilling should be slightly above 4m (I can measure on Saturday), the room is L-shaped with the main rectangle being something like 8*12.

Cheers, Peer
It's not easy, as the size of the room directly relates to size in the music. To record an ensemble in a room, the room must have a size that is appropriate, otherwise it sounds small. Just as with an orchestra that is recorded in a room that was too small.

If you have a small room, I would make it as dry (absorbive) as possible, and then the rest (as you can not absorb every thing, as then it would be too dry) should be treated with with diffusors. The trick is to not have too much reflections, as they all come too early, and those that do come should come later as they normally would.

Cheers,
Dd
Old 2 weeks ago
  #37
Lives for gear
Replying to this so I can come back to it tonight. looking forward to watching it.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #38
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Rob 28's Avatar
 
Every time ECM is in a thread, my little reverb radar tinglies get excited. I know the kind of gear they have used over the years for reverbs, but almost nothing about technique. Daniel has a good tutorial on the web about reverb, but I keep thinking there is a further dimension to the sound that Manfred and Jan Erik Kongshaug always got in the studio.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #39
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Progger's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob 28 ➡️
Every time ECM is in a thread, my little reverb radar tinglies get excited. I know the kind of gear they have used over the years for reverbs, but almost nothing about technique. Daniel has a good tutorial on the web about reverb, but I keep thinking there is a further dimension to the sound that Manfred and Jan Erik Kongshaug always got in the studio.
I agree, and beyond reverb, I feel like there's a sonic cohesion for ECM records done from the '70s clear through to the early '00s that seems to be there regardless of whether the production happened in New York, Germany, or elsewhere. From Keith Jarrett's trio to the Dave Holland Quintet. I'd love to know anything and everything about those sessions and mixes!
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #40
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob 28 ➡️
Every time ECM is in a thread, my little reverb radar tinglies get excited. I know the kind of gear they have used over the years for reverbs, but almost nothing about technique. Daniel has a good tutorial on the web about reverb, but I keep thinking there is a further dimension to the sound that Manfred and Jan Erik Kongshaug always got in the studio.
There are some tidbits in the big ECM thread (see link below), although nobody gives up the secrets in any detail; ECM probably keeps a tight lid on it since it's such an essential element of their signature sound.

Any ECM slutz in this house?

I remember reading an interview with Jan Erik Kongshaug where he said that he always used multiple reverbs: https://tapeop.com/interviews/91/jan-erik-kongshaug/

Relevant quote: In 1970 the EMT plate was the reverb we used, and that was it. Then the Lexicon came, so we combined the EMT plate and the Lexicon reverb. But now we have a lot of different reverb machines. I can use eight different stereo reverbs, which have different rooms — large room, church, or a small space. So, on a snare drum, I can have three different reverbs. A good thing in working with analog is it is much easier to control. I have 16 sends from each channel. I don't use that all of the time, but for special pop productions I have a lot of different reverbs and delays and things. I think it's really nice to have the hardware. I have the Lexicon 960L and a TC Electronic System 6000, which is a Danish machine. Bricasti Designs' M7 is a new one I have, which I love.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #41
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idee und klang's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Progger ➡️
I agree, and beyond reverb, I feel like there's a sonic cohesion for ECM records done from the '70s clear through to the early '00s that seems to be there regardless of whether the production happened in New York, Germany, or elsewhere. From Keith Jarrett's trio to the Dave Holland Quintet. I'd love to know anything and everything about those sessions and mixes!
As a student, Jan Erik Kongshaug was one of the Sound Engineers that Mixes I loved (the other two were Al Schmitt and George Massenburg). I soon was lucky to have an easy Entrance in the Swiss High-End Jazz, and then even worked on two projects with Jan Erik.

There are other Engineers, that have worked more frequently with Manfred, but when I was the lucky guy to work for him, what impressed me most, was his clear vision as a producer. Both in the recording and in the mixing process. On a recording session, once the band played a tune, and I was thinking, that this is a boring tune (While all others so far were fantastic). I was wondering what Manfred would say. The tune was over, and the band wanted to directly play a 2nd version of it. Manfred pressed the talk back, and said, that they shall pass on, it would not be necessary to play it again. The band said, that it was a bad take, and they need another version. Manfred said, that he does not want that song to be on the CD. The band members looked at each other, but then passed on and finally were happy that someone told them.

What for me meanwhile is so important: Live-Music at the concert is somewhat different from music on Loudspeaker. It is very easy for musician to produce things, that work well at the stage, but not on Speakers. If a Jazz-Bassdrum has a clear pitch it will fight with the Loudspeakers, unless you pan one hard left, the other hard right (which nowadays nobody wants anymore. The Membran can not reproduce the bass when a Bassdrum also produces a (or better: exactly one) pitch.

Daniel
www.danieldettwiler.com
Old 2 weeks ago
  #42
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Rob 28's Avatar
 
Thank you Daniel! You have been so generous with your time here. Yes, I have read pretty much everything available on the net about Jan Erik and the ECM style. In one interview he says: "Combining different reverbs - that is my art". Perhaps he took those secrets to the grave. I think the genius of Manfred is his clear vision of how he wants a record to sound. And he knows the tools - I wonder if he himself could mix an album - with so much time in the control room he probably could. Anyway, I guess for me it just comes down to practice. (What doesn't!)
Old 2 weeks ago
  #43
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🎧 15 years
Swiss audio supremacy.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #44
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Progger's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by idee und klang ➡️
What for me meanwhile is so important: Live-Music at the concert is somewhat different from music on Loudspeaker. It is very easy for musician to produce things, that work well at the stage, but not on Speakers. If a Jazz-Bassdrum has a clear pitch it will fight with the Loudspeakers, unless you pan one hard left, the other hard right (which nowadays nobody wants anymore. The Membran can not reproduce the bass when a Bassdrum also produces a (or better: exactly one) pitch.
www.danieldettwiler.com
This is an excellent point, Daniel, thank you! Yes, it's the same in my experience, depending on the piece. Some of my band's tunes work better live than in the studio; some of our pieces that went great in the studio just don't translate live. Fortunately, many work for both applications, but there are some that don't!

I think there's distinct value in all three: a live performance with no recording; a recorded live performance; and a studio recording.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #45
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob 28 ➡️
"Combining different reverbs - that is my art". Perhaps he took those secrets to the grave. (What doesn't!)
No he didn't. There aren't secrets, it's all very clear how Masters like Al or also Jan Erik worked. Even Al never made a secret about how he worked. What they took to the grave was their personal "Art". The combination of all possibilities in a studio are endless. Where exactly you let go of the controls, how precisely you set all the parameters, and how intuitively you can do that (because objectively no human being can hear everything accurately), that's the mystery. Once a Master passes away, his Art is gone, just as no Piano Player plays like Horowitz. But there will come others. That's life. Whoever wants to copy the sound of another engineer will just fail. You only can be inspired by them, maybe try some of their methods, but at the end the journey for every engineer is:
- Work hard and learn the techniques. I don't understand engineers, who are saying, that reverb is important, yet at the same time they don't know what contour, shape or spread in a lexicon is doing.
- Work on his own taste (and develop it) and hope that his taste fits to what others want to hear. Music on Speakers need to have something special. Something that temps the listener immediately. Something that makes it a record (compared to just a professional mix that can be played nicely in the radio but not more) All great masters are able to do that.
- Have the luck of having the perfect match of a strong character but also having Sensitivity, humility and discretion and good communication skills.
- Have the luck to get in contact to the next level musicians / producers at the right time, to take that chance and then not to f.ck it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob 28 ➡️
I think the genius of Manfred is his clear vision of how he wants a record to sound. And he knows the tools - I wonder if he himself could mix an album - with so much time in the control room, he probably could. Anyway, I guess for me, it just comes down to practice. (What doesn't!)
He is more a producer, but he can tell the engineer what he wants in an understandable way. And if the engineer has a weakness, he would let him know:-). He would be very serial - let's mix Song 1, once done, he would not come back to that song anymore. That leads to a very focused athmosphere.

Daniel
New Masterclass finally available:
https://www.danieldettwiler.com/cour...s-mixing-bible

Last edited by idee und klang; 2 weeks ago at 10:45 AM..
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #46
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idee und klang's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
BTW: This video (not related to me at all) documents a recording by Jan Erik.



And this is an interview about him, that I like very much:

https://tapeop.com/interviews/91/jan-erik-kongshaug/
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