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Two spaced pairs on one bar - what set up is this?
Old 11th January 2022
  #1
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Two spaced pairs on one bar - what set up is this?

I recently saw a very nicely recorded concert with an (to me) unusual set-up that looks like two spaced pairs on a suspended bar - what would that be?

Here: https://youtu.be/VLmxbXT8uW8?t=222
Old 11th January 2022
  #2
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wildplum's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Listener ➑️
I recently saw a very nicely recorded concert with an (to me) unusual set-up that looks like two spaced pairs on a suspended bar - what would that be?

Here: https://youtu.be/VLmxbXT8uW8?t=222
Faulkner array (spacing pairs at 67cm and 47cm)?
Old 11th January 2022
  #3
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Not up on all Tony's arrays by any means but could you point me to some source on this 4-mic plan? Also seems that with such a narrow stage/small ensemble, the mixer ended up using only one pair for the final recording?

Seems like this would have almost certainly been a two-mic job for me, probably my Samar stereo ribbon. I have had amazing success with that mic in a similar venue with small-ish groups.

FWIW, this and less than five bucks will buy you a Starbucks.

D.
Old 11th January 2022
  #4
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Spacings look pretty much same as Faulkner 4-mic.
Attached Thumbnails
Two spaced pairs on one bar - what set up is this?-faulkner-4-mic-wallrode-nt6-copy.jpg  
Old 11th January 2022
  #5
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king2070lplaya's Avatar
I know Tony F has done some of the Wigmore Hall recordings in the past, though that was years ago that I remember seeing it. Perhaps he's still doing them, or spec'd the rig for them?
Old 11th January 2022 | Show parent
  #6
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by M50k ➑️
Spacings look pretty much same as Faulkner 4-mic.
In this photo the remote cables and fittings look like the Rode NT-6: https://www.rode.com/microphones/nt6

with the omni capsules at the outer extremity: https://www.rode.com/accessories/nt45-o
and the cardioid capsules inside: https://www.rode.com/accessories/nt45-c

Rode doesn't make a sub-cardioid capsule
Old 11th January 2022
  #7
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Yep, that's exactly what they are. That photo is of a Faulkner session.

TF himself used and recommended this rig for his 4-mic; especially for those who can't afford the Schoeps or Neumann subcards.

He first used the Rodes for back-ups when he had to switch to Neumanns while his Schoeps were in for repair.

He recommended a little lo EQ to relieve some of the "permafrost" of SDC cards, to make them gel a bit better with the omnis.
Old 11th January 2022
  #8
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Tony has championed the use of the Rode SD mics in this array for many years:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8uCcFIyJJ-w
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v8qkjoWJwSI
Old 11th January 2022
  #9
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Great, thanks, it seems this is it... Sounds lovely.

How are there no phase issues? I guess it is not mono compatible, in stereo it sounds great!
Old 11th January 2022 | Show parent
  #10
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Listener ➑️
Great, thanks, it seems this is it... Sounds lovely.

How are there no phase issues? I guess it is not mono compatible, in stereo it sounds great!
If you watch the videos linked in my post above, you'll see TF calls it a phased array....all capsules are receiving the wavefront simultaneously (4 mics located in the same horizontal plane).

With regard to phasing between the 2 pairs, TF's recommendation is to allow one pair to dominate in the mix blend over the other by 7-9dB (or more), which negates most audible phasing artifacts between the 2 pairs
Old 11th January 2022 | Show parent
  #11
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elpillo's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Listener ➑️
Great, thanks, it seems this is it... Sounds lovely.

How are there no phase issues? I guess it is not mono compatible, in stereo it sounds great!
The 4-mic-phased-array works best when all 4 capsules are aligned, minimizing phase issues.
Old 11th January 2022 | Show parent
  #12
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot ➑️
Not up on all Tony's arrays by any means but could you point me to some source on this 4-mic plan?
Stuff I bookmarked on the 4-mic TonyF array. A couple of these are interviews with TonyF his own fine se'f. If you read down far enough into the GearSpace threads, you'll find TonyF's own explanations, and spacings, which varies a bit depending on the content of the thread. Enjoy!

Faulkner Arrays!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uCcFIyJJ-w

Faulkner array and insta-snake in action

Three Mixes: A Boojum/JNorman case study

https://www.audiotechnology.com/feat...eo-masterclass
Old 11th January 2022
  #13
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The Listener's Avatar
 
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Cool, thanks for all the responses! I am mostly recording MS and spots... or ORTF, have to try this once...
I was always reluctant to try spaced pairs, because they were considered non-mono compatible... but it sounds nice...

The mics are parallel in that picture, I see in some others they have them angled... is it always a mix of cardioids(subcardioids) and omnis?
Old 12th January 2022 | Show parent
  #14
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Listener ➑️
The mics are parallel in that picture, I see in some others they have them angled... is it always a mix of cardioids(subcardioids) and omnis?
No, it might be parallax error but if you look carefully at that photo you'll see each mic is angled out by 45 degrees, to give 90 degrees splay-out for each mic pair....which is in keeping with all of TF's descriptions in the links and videos cited above.

Also (therefore) the mics on each side are parallel with one another ( ie inner and outer left are parallel, so are inner and outer right)
Old 12th January 2022 | Show parent
  #15
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by M50k ➑️
Yep, that's exactly what they are. That photo is of a Faulkner session.

TF himself used and recommended this rig for his 4-mic; especially for those who can't afford the Schoeps or Neumann subcards.

He first used the Rodes for back-ups when he had to switch to Neumanns while his Schoeps were in for repair.

He recommended a little lo EQ to relieve some of the "permafrost" of SDC cards, to make them gel a bit better with the omnis.
I do wish that Rode would 'release into the wild' these TF-45C capsules shown here below ...which I'm guessing are also the beating heart of the current TF-inspired Rode TF-5 mic:

https://en.rode.com/ntsf1
https://www.rode.com/microphones/tf-5

....assuming that they'd be electrically backwards compatible with the existing Rode NT line of SD mics eg NT5, NT55, NT6 ?
Old 12th January 2022 | Show parent
  #16
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The Listener's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➑️
No, it might be parallax error but if you look carefully at that photo you'll see each mic is angled out by 45 degrees, to give 90 degrees splay-out for each mic pair....which is in keeping with all of TF's descriptions in the links and videos cited above.

Also (therefore) the mics on each side are parallel with one another ( ie inner and outer left are parallel, so are inner and outer right)
I meant in the video... but could be parallax...
Old 12th January 2022 | Show parent
  #17
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MBBCFP's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Angled?

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➑️
No, it might be parallax error but if you look carefully at that photo you'll see each mic is angled out by 45 degrees, to give 90 degrees splay-out for each mic pair....which is in keeping with all of TF's descriptions in the links and videos cited above.

Also (therefore) the mics on each side are parallel with one another ( ie inner and outer left are parallel, so are inner and outer right)
Look at the video at 1:20. I see no angle . . .
Old 12th January 2022 | Show parent
  #18
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot ➑️
Not up on all Tony's arrays by any means but could you point me to some source on this 4-mic plan? Also seems that with such a narrow stage/small ensemble, the mixer ended up using only one pair for the final recording?

Seems like this would have almost certainly been a two-mic job for me, probably my Samar stereo ribbon. I have had amazing success with that mic in a similar venue with small-ish groups.

FWIW, this and less than five bucks will buy you a Starbucks.

D.
Blumlein 90 degree fig 8s works well on smaller ensembles, placement is so much easier and encompasses the whole ensemble. My first call very often on smaller ensembles too.
Old 12th January 2022
  #19
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🎧 5 years
The mics are definitely parallel, not angled out, in the video. My guess is that the person doesn't fully understand the TF 4-mic, or that whoever it was (maybe even Tony) on tests, found that the viola was a bit low in the balance, so having the mics parallel, creating a stronger center, helped the balance.
Old 12th January 2022 | Show parent
  #20
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➑️
I do wish that Rode would 'release into the wild' these TF-45C capsules shown here below ...which I'm guessing are also the beating heart of the current TF-inspired Rode TF-5 mic:

https://en.rode.com/ntsf1
https://www.rode.com/microphones/tf-5

....assuming that they'd be electrically backwards compatible with the existing Rode NT line of SD mics eg NT5, NT55, NT6 ?
They seem to have quite astonishing low frequency response for cardioids.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that they were not compatible with the NT series, though.
Old 12th January 2022 | Show parent
  #21
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➑️
all capsules are receiving the wavefront simultaneously (4 mics located in the same horizontal plane).
Quote:
Originally Posted by elpillo ➑️
The 4-mic-phased-array works best when all 4 capsules are aligned, minimizing phase issues.
Only for a one dimensional wavefront coming in perpendicular to the mics.
Old 12th January 2022 | Show parent
  #22
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt ➑️
Only for a one dimensional wavefront coming in perpendicular to the mics.
With 45 degree splay-out that's not going to happen, is it ? Mostly a blend of off-axis and nearby boundary reflections instead
Old 12th January 2022 | Show parent
  #23
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MBBCFP ➑️
Look at the video at 1:20. I see no angle . . .
Maybe it's a boojum/Norman 4 mic array ....as both are contributors here they might chime in to confirm ?
If nobody claims...we might have to name it the 'Wigmore variant'
Old 12th January 2022 | Show parent
  #24
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➑️
With 45 degree splay-out that's not going to happen, is it ? Mostly a blend of off-axis and nearby boundary reflections instead
It doesn't matter how the mics are splayed. With 4 mics on a bar, only a planar wave with a perpendicular angle of incidence will be in phase in all four mics. Pretty much an impossibility except at very low frequency aimed at the mics.

I tend to avoid mixing two or more out of phase signals to one channel. But I am an advocate of MS.
Old 13th January 2022
  #25
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🎧 10 years
Phase could therefore be the reason that, given the choice, I prefer the 'other' Faulkner phased array (20 cm spaced parallel fig 8 mics) to the 4 mic array of this thread ?
Old 15th January 2022
  #26
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🎧 15 years
I see just two sets of A-B, maybe one set is directional and the other one omni, which could have been blended (as a sort of TonyF variation) or by their own (two sets to chosse from). The sound seem pretty directional to me - an unhyped, natural sound, a little on the dry side.

Identifying the microphones could maybe help - I hear a clear buzz, as if they were badly shielded/grounded - can this be indication of something? They also seem unusually long, for typical sdc's - almost like shot-guns.

I don't know what to make of it really - but curious

::
Mads

Last edited by mljung; 15th January 2022 at 05:58 PM..
Old 15th January 2022
  #27
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🎧 10 years
Tony F has been contributing to the Rode NTR thread here in the last day or so....hopefully he might chip in here with some mic and array information, as I believe he's quite famliar with recording in Wigmore.
Old 19th January 2022 | Show parent
  #28
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson ➑️
Stuff I bookmarked on the 4-mic TonyF array. A couple of these are interviews with TonyF his own fine se'f. If you read down far enough into the GearSpace threads, you'll find TonyF's own explanations, and spacings, which varies a bit depending on the content of the thread. Enjoy!

Faulkner Arrays!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uCcFIyJJ-w

Faulkner array and insta-snake in action

Three Mixes: A Boojum/JNorman case study

https://www.audiotechnology.com/feat...eo-masterclass
Let's not forget the Onno Scholze 4 mic 'Pipe' array...in particular Mark D's post no.18...

RIP Onno Scholtze
Old 19th January 2022
  #29
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
I encourage anyone who hasn't tried the Onno 'pipe', to do so - it's become my first choice for orchestra.
Old 19th January 2022 | Show parent
  #30
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by M50k ➑️
I encourage anyone who hasn't tried the Onno 'pipe', to do so - it's become my first choice for orchestra.
I'm guessing you'd want to be using a carbon fibre tube/rod for the 3m span !
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