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Classical lieder
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Classical lieder

Hi!

Sorry if this has been discussed a lot already, but couldn't fin a relevant thread.

I am recording a singers audition for the conservatory in Copenhagen tomorrow. I have done this a couple of times earlier with a classic concert set up and gotten good results. This time a wondered if I should try a "studio set up" with the singer facing the piano. I know it is common practice to place spaced omnis between the piano and singer, but I am not that fond of spaced omnis... Would a blumlein pair (two Neumann 120) or an m/s omni between the piano and singer work?

All the best,

Knut
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
If it were me I would continue doing what you have been doing...
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #3
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe ➡️
If it were me I would continue doing what you have been doing...
Yes, that is sound advice. I am always searching to improve/expand my technique, so I try to experiment when I have time to do proper sound checks.

K
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #4
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
are there no specific requirements and limitations how the recording must get achieved?

mic pattern, position and technique depend on the room, your skills and the results you are trying to achieve - without being given more context, imo it's hard if not impossible to give any meaningful advice...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #5
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Its fun finding out ,as an old girlfriend said...
Its good to master technique and then choose the one that suits
Old 3 weeks ago
  #6
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
This is the set up we are trying out. You see a blumlein pair in the middle, two omni on piano and two 143 on singer and two outriggers.

Will post a sample if I am allowed.

K
Attached Thumbnails
Classical lieder-a281e6dc-1c14-496d-8205-59501ca6be5f.jpg  
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #7
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by knuttta ➡️
This is the set up we are trying out. You see a blumlein pair in the middle, two omni on piano and two 143 on singer and two outriggers.

Will post a sample if I am allowed.

K
I would expect the rear of the Blumlein and the omnis on the piano to create a pretty confused image and poor tone of the piano.

If singer's going to face the piano; a better choice for her would be a cardioid pair, to reject the piano.

Widely spaced omni flanks on something like this could create a rather 'bloated' soundstage for something as intimate as singer/piano.

With proper positioning of piano/singer/mic, the Blumlein could do this quite well on it's own; keep it simple.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #8
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by M50k ➡️
I would expect the rear of the Blumlein and the omnis on the piano to create a pretty confused image and poor tone of the piano.

If singer's going to face the piano; a better choice for her would be a cardioid pair, to reject the piano.

Widely spaced omni flanks on something like this could create a rather 'bloated' soundstage for something as intimate as singer/piano.

With proper positioning of piano/singer/mic, the Blumlein could do this quite well on it's own; keep it simple.
Yes, the widely spaced omnis behaved just as you said.

Both spot pair worked very well when I moved the piano mics to the Decca position.

The singer (who has excellent ears and very well oriented in different recording techniques) enjoyed the Blumlein pair. I am not so sure I liked it. Will try a mid side omni and spaced (maybe 46-60 cm) omnis tomorrow.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #9
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
The omni ambience mics turns up the room tone which the Blumlein pair are removing, so as M50 said it’s better to scrap the wide ambience pair. Experimentally you might try lowering the Blumlein mics and bringing the singer closer to them, so that you can remove the singer spot mics…assuming this retains a piano sound relative to the singer that you’re still happy with. When lowering the Blumlein pair you might also bring them closer to the singer, which should achieve the same outcome….you probably need slightly less focus on the piano than voice.

Edit: a problem you might encounter with this setup is that there will be some voice reflection from the piano lid, and this will likely phase cancel with the main voice on the other side of the Blumlein pair….hard to predict how noticeable this will be until you try it ?

Last edited by studer58; 3 weeks ago at 11:44 AM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #10
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Treat the piano /singer as the source and cover with the Blumlein pair
Stand him in the crook of the piano and let him balance
That should be more real than 8 mics could achieve....
Old 3 weeks ago
  #11
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Thanks for advice. Ended up with a quite common "studio set up": Two omnis (67cm) between singer and piano, a bit closer to singer and 220cm high. Singer spotted with two 143 and piano with two 183. No reverb or anything else added.

What do you think?

K
Attached Files

Andreas Kbh Am leuchtenden.mp3 (5.47 MB, 27 views)

Old 3 weeks ago
  #12
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Very good render
Perhaps a little too close on the Vox
but it sounds real
Old 3 weeks ago
  #13
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Agree with Rolo, but I think voice about right, piano just a little distant and ethereal.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #14
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Yes the voice is a little too close in focus for listening enjoyment....but the audition panel will absolutely love it, as there are no discreet layers of camouflage or romance for it to hide behind !

The piano is a little other-worldly (or other roomly), as David suggests...maybe less voice spot and more tail-piano spot in the balance might have evened up the disparity somewhat...but it's still a completely serviceable recording for its intended purpose.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #15
Lives for gear
 
kludgeaudio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by knuttta ➡️
Hi!

Sorry if this has been discussed a lot already, but couldn't fin a relevant thread.

I am recording a singers audition for the conservatory in Copenhagen tomorrow. I have done this a couple of times earlier with a classic concert set up and gotten good results. This time a wondered if I should try a "studio set up" with the singer facing the piano. I know it is common practice to place spaced omnis between the piano and singer, but I am not that fond of spaced omnis... Would a blumlein pair (two Neumann 120) or an m/s omni between the piano and singer work?

All the best,

Knut
It can work but you'll need a big room because the angle of acceptance of the blumlein pair is very narrow. And you may wind up with the singer unpleasantly far from the piano. But it can work out very well.

A Jecklin pair of omnis between the piano and singer can work well too and doesn't have that depth that widely spaced omnis get.
--scott
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