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"It sounds... 'lumpy'..."
Old 17th December 2021
  #1
Gear Guru
 
joelpatterson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
"It sounds... 'lumpy'..."

I get it that musicians see the world their way: it must look a lot like an impressionist painting, like early VHS, with blobs and blurs, brimming with suggestiveness, and even more, suggestivenesstivity. Kind of hammers home how what I'm doing is very much physical: physical machines, mike placement in space and time, processing specific data that's been scientifically encoded.

So then, it might seem, that listening to playback is the same abstract, atmospheric visit to the casbah-- I think that a "lumpy" excess in the frequencies might apply to the 200-400 Hz range, and sure enough that made it better--

-- (and if there is a mysterious penumbra of maybe this instrument is not entirely in tune and, in a compassionate gesture, I am disincentivizing the clarity that would expose that, when it's possible to shade that, and that that is our ultimate goal: a playback that reinforces the glory and genius of the player, within the limits of the possible, and more is sometime less, and which it is all a layered thing, 'specially with the tools at hand today, so an imperative to starkness and precision, maybe not, so much)--

so what's everyone's approach to translating musician-speak? And tips or strategies or things that work?
Old 17th December 2021
  #2
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson ➡️
I get it that musicians see the world their way
i don't think that musicians differ from other professions in this respect

Quote:
what's everyone's approach to translating musician-speak? And tips or strategies or things that work?
what i find amazing is how different the language of musicians can be, e.g. depending on the genre, age, socio-cultural background etc.: they all have their own professional language but then there are different idioms, dialects, slangs etc, all of which you can learn if you either become a musician yourself or spend enough time in their company.
Old 18th December 2021
  #3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Yes, the best way to understand musicians, or any other professional people would be to take up their respective profession yourself. At least this way you won't need a translator when you try to communicate with them.

Musicians are not common people; they are here to present us with something coming from upstairs somewhere....
Old 18th December 2021
  #4
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Maybe musicians simply have a better 'musical imagination' than ordinary folk....which would explain why they can extract the essential musicality of a recording or mix from even the most spartan and skewed/el cheapo playback hardware ?

They don't have to maintain belief in the ephemeral truth of hi-fi reproduction, when they're right in the thick of producing it... with real instruments, real arrangements in real spaces.

So they can suspend belief in the chimaera of recorded and reproduced music....similar to fronting up to see the real Mona Lisa, and not going weak at the knees !

So don't get too self-congratulatory Joel, in pulling off a 'creative de-focussing or lens smear trick'...when the musicians are in on the scam from the start....they can tell the silicon implants from the natural !
Old 18th December 2021
  #5
Gear Guru
 
joelpatterson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Well ..... it's far too late for me to not spend hours and days and years in the company of musicians...but I will obviously never be "one of them," simply because of what I am spelling out: I cannot talk and plead and murmur to the mixing board to give me what I'm after. I need to make decisions and take actions and twist certain dials and not others, and each of these dials speaks with numerical accuracy.

(Although I admit, I used to dream of the camera that would get stoned... and incarnate within its lenses and color reversal film stock the fantastical visions and fleeting glimpses of eternity that I saw.)

Alas! It was just a Super 8 camera! And microphones just hear what's infront of them! It's all just so... so disgustingly prosaic! So literal and not at all imaginatory, other-worldly and visionary and whimsical! Like the artist in me so desperately wants it to be!
Old 18th December 2021 | Show parent
  #6
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joelpatterson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
....they can tell the silicon implants from the natural !
But the brazen courage to say, "oh, I was a little out of tune for that passage... in fact every so often throughout the piece... let's hire the hall again, do the same program, and this time I will play perfectly..."

Does that ever happen?
Old 18th December 2021
  #7
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Sounds like you want to get into the water with all the deliriously beautiful naked people at the stoned pool party...when your black and white job brief unequivocally appoints you as the perpetually on duty life-guard
Old 18th December 2021
  #8
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joelpatterson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
You are right, I chose this career, out of my own free will.

I think...
Old 18th December 2021 | Show parent
  #9
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson ➡️
Does that ever happen?
Nope....unless it's destined for commercial or in-perpetuity replay via YouTube. Usually it's a vague personal undertaking of "I must do better next time"...like so many half-hearted New Year resolutions.

So it becomes a case by case decision, to re-record or not...dependent upon what's at stake, reputation-wise. How much of a sin/crime is a wrong note (or several), anyway ? It's often like that Paul Simon song "Still Crazy After All these Years"....the line about being convicted by a jury of one's peers

If they expressed their inner truth....it would be a wish that you hadn't recorded it in the first place.

Like that Jackson Browne lyric in "These Days" : 'Please don't confront me with my failures...I have not forgotten them'
Old 18th December 2021 | Show parent
  #10
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson ➡️
You are right, I chose this career, out of my own free will.

I think...
So you'll make a casting bid when they re-start Baywatch 2025 !
Old 18th December 2021 | Show parent
  #11
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson ➡️
You are right, I chose this career, out of my own free will.

I think...
It's never too late to have a happy childhood...nor to eke out some additional 'artistry' out of what's essentially a transcription job brief.

You know, PHIL Spector's Wall of Sound....Brian Wilson, that kinda tangent ?

Or....become a self-satisfied soundscapin' binaural guerilla recording hippie...but wait, aren't you that already ?
Old 18th December 2021 | Show parent
  #12
Gear Guru
 
joelpatterson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
....it would be a wish that you hadn't recorded it in the first place...
Ah, now we are getting to the truth of the matter!

Which is why there's this underlying dread I sense with certain people... normally I would not even give it a name, just brush by it and try to explain: I am their best friend, even if I also have to be their most merciless, unblinking critic... but then I comfort myself with the fact that one day, we will all be long gone, and if any of this survives, it will be so curious to see... bleached of all its humdrum, daily concerns... just simply a time capsule, a window on a vanished world.

Thanks, this has been very therapeutic........
Old 18th December 2021 | Show parent
  #13
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joelpatterson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
So you'll make a casting bid when they re-start Baywatch 2025 !
I did somehow miss it the first time around... I must have been busy?
Old 18th December 2021 | Show parent
  #14
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson ➡️
I did somehow miss it the first time around... I must have been busy?
I think your psyche would be perfectly aligned to the detached (if slightly voyeuristic) elevated perspective of summers spent gazing down on humanity from the lifesaver's perch ....watching, philosophising, clandestinely eavesdropping via a concealed pair of shotgun mics....occasionally shaping fate and destiny for the better !

You know...like a coast-bound Wichita lineman, just serving a different kinda county ! Interesting that both jobs involve the element of an altered perspective (ie elevation)

I'm expecting Steve Remote to soon move this thread to his newly-created 5th Remote Possibilities sub-forum: 'The Philosopher's Zone' ....
Old 18th December 2021
  #15
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I've heard things like "it sounds airy...."but can't say I've ever heard that "it sounds lumpy."

Could be a great opportunity for you to write the definitive guide to interpreting lesser known or obscure musician phraseology.
Old 18th December 2021 | Show parent
  #16
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson ➡️
Ah, now we are getting to the truth of the matter!

Which is why there's this underlying dread I sense with certain people... normally I would not even give it a name, just brush by it and try to explain: I am their best friend, even if I also have to be their most merciless, unblinking critic... but then I comfort myself with the fact that one day, we will all be long gone, and if any of this survives, it will be so curious to see... bleached of all its humdrum, daily concerns... just simply a time capsule, a window on a vanished world.

Thanks, this has been very therapeutic........
You’re wanting to be their best friend…but the all-too-mercilessly revealing mirror you’re holding up to them via your recordings forces them to become their own worst enemy and critic instead…so you’ve become the unwitting bearer of uncomfortable truths at this point ! That’s something you can either embrace….or backpedal furiously from …

Follow the ‘Get Back’ model and bury it for 50 years….then revisit !
Old 18th December 2021
  #17
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I admire muso 's , they can hear through noise
Noise is all I can hear
They can balance against another force 100' feet away
I cant balance without spatial distortion.
Most of all I admire them playing and not being listened to
Most music was for talking or dancing over
The musicians were hidden in balconies and even underground as the Aristos ate and gossiped.
Old 18th December 2021
  #18
Lives for gear
 
Sharp11's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson ➡️
I get it that musicians see the world their way: it must look a lot like an impressionist painting, like early VHS, with blobs and blurs, brimming with suggestiveness, and even more, suggestivenesstivity. Kind of hammers home how what I'm doing is very much physical: physical machines, mike placement in space and time, processing specific data that's been scientifically encoded.

So then, it might seem, that listening to playback is the same abstract, atmospheric visit to the casbah-- I think that a "lumpy" excess in the frequencies might apply to the 200-400 Hz range, and sure enough that made it better--

-- (and if there is a mysterious penumbra of maybe this instrument is not entirely in tune and, in a compassionate gesture, I am disincentivizing the clarity that would expose that, when it's possible to shade that, and that that is our ultimate goal: a playback that reinforces the glory and genius of the player, within the limits of the possible, and more is sometime less, and which it is all a layered thing, 'specially with the tools at hand today, so an imperative to starkness and precision, maybe not, so much)--

so what's everyone's approach to translating musician-speak? And tips or strategies or things that work?
As a grateful owner of a brain condition known as synesthesia - I see and hear everything in terms of colors, shapes smells and other things - yes, I can convert these things to technical terms, but only for me. What most people don’t realize is one man’s “lumpy” is another’s “gravy”

Last edited by Sharp11; 4 weeks ago at 04:58 AM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #19
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
A few years into recording almost exclusively classical music, it began to dawn on me that a surprisingly high percentage of musicians have little to no ear for sound itself; it's as if lifelong intensive study of notes and expression has left little room in their heads for how things actually sound.

Can't tell you how many highly trained and accomplished classical musicians have their home audio systems set up in a completely random and ignorant way; or even worse only own plastic, integrated 'stack' systems - junk.

That's why I try always to have them supply me with a recording they like, of repertoire similar to what we'll be recording, rather than attempt to describe the sound they want verbally - that path can lead to frustration and despair.

A typical example: A highly regarded musican wanted to hire me record her group in what I knew to be a horrendously nasty acoustic (community center with low ceiling and massive floor to ceiling windows). I turned the job down three times before buckling to her insistence. It was of course a crap recording. She'd played this space many times, but just couldn't hear how awful it was. 'Needles' to say she wanted to try to 'fix it in post', which I also told her couldn't be done, be again she insisted, and - surprise, it remained a crap recording.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #20
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by M50k ➡️
A few years into recording almost exclusively classical music, it began to dawn on me that a surprisingly high percentage of musicians have little to no ear for sound itself; it's as if lifelong intensive study of notes and expression has left little room in their heads for how things actually sound.

Can't tell you how many highly trained and accomplished classical musicians have their home audio systems set up in a completely random and ignorant way; or even worse only own plastic, integrated 'stack' systems - junk.

That's why I try always to have them supply me with a recording they like, of repertoire similar to what we'll be recording, rather than attempt to describe the sound they want verbally - that path can lead to frustration and despair.

A typical example: A highly regarded musican wanted to hire me record her group in what I knew to be a horrendously nasty acoustic (community center with low ceiling and massive floor to ceiling windows). I turned the job down three times before buckling to her insistence. It was of course a crap recording. She'd played this space many times, but just couldn't hear how awful it was. 'Needles' to say she wanted to try to 'fix it in post', which I also told her couldn't be done, be again she insisted, and - surprise, it remained a crap recording.
It could conceivably also be 180 degrees around from the handicap as you're painting it...that the musicians have the ability to hear "through" the sound, the sonic imprint the enclosure they're in...to the essence of the music, the ensemble interactions, the structure of the music that's being created...

...while you're the hapless individual hamstrung by the perceived impediments to it's appreciation and enjoyment: by the same sonic footprint of the enclosed space that they effortlessly transcend, the background traffic noises, the excessive echo (or overly damped, dry) etc.

The musicians are probably diving deeper into the depths of the experience, can perceive the layers and strata...while you're floundering in the waves at the shore, or being betrayed by the ice on the surface of the lake...unable to get out of the starting gate ?

I'm not saying that it makes your/our job any easier...to record successfully in an unsupportive (or actively subversive) acoustic...simply that they are oblivious to that quality of the environment, and the negative impact it has upon the recording.

Additionally...chances are they'd 'hear through' such a flawed recording, as it's not necessarily on their radar to register it, as a distraction ?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #21
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by M50k ➡️
A few years into recording almost exclusively classical music, it began to dawn on me that a surprisingly high percentage of musicians have little to no ear for sound itself; it's as if lifelong intensive study of notes and expression has left little room in their heads for how things actually sound.

Can't tell you how many highly trained and accomplished classical musicians have their home audio systems set up in a completely random and ignorant way; or even worse only own plastic, integrated 'stack' systems - junk.

That's why I try always to have them supply me with a recording they like, of repertoire similar to what we'll be recording, rather than attempt to describe the sound they want verbally - that path can lead to frustration and despair.

A typical example: A highly regarded musican wanted to hire me record her group in what I knew to be a horrendously nasty acoustic (community center with low ceiling and massive floor to ceiling windows). I turned the job down three times before buckling to her insistence. It was of course a crap recording. She'd played this space many times, but just couldn't hear how awful it was. 'Needles' to say she wanted to try to 'fix it in post', which I also told her couldn't be done, be again she insisted, and - surprise, it remained a crap recording.

I am sorry, this kind of thinking won't get you very far.

Musicians don’t hear their own music through the same pathway as yours. For one, the instruments they play are placed as close to their ears as 3-4 inches, a far cry from any microphone placement. They anticipate the music as they play, make adjustment based on the room sound bouncing back to them. The fact the musicians can make good sound and music because they listen to themselves so well, can make infinite and lightning quick adjustment on how they play.

Record the same musician playing the same music in the same place with or without covering their ears with a pair of headphones and you will be totally amazed at how differently they would produce the sound, simply due to the difference they hear themselves with or without ear covering. We probably all experienced this: handing over a pair of headphone with music playing to someone and that person would immediately speak ten times louder back to you, because he couldn’t hear himself anymore.


It is true most of musicians don’t have good stereo systems in their house. Most of them don’t care and a lot of them can’t afford fancy stuff. The reality is that no matter how good a stereo system sound, to the musicians stereos don’t sound anywhere near to what they hear themselves day in and day out. As a musician myself, I can tell you that the recorded sound simply suck by comparison, even with all the latest technology in the world! As a recording engineer, you must attend live concerts often just to keep your ears in check. Recording engineers by default don’t listen to real sound in the hall due to its occupational hazard. You need to listen to the musicians you record very carefully and closely without going through microphones before you even think about capturing their sound that will remotely resemble what the musicians hear. Get close to the instrument, really close, as if you are playing it.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #22
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo ➡️
Get close to the instrument, really close, as if you are playing it.
Good point, it's not as if playing an instrument is devoid of hearing health/longevity implications for the players... and not just loud amplified instruments, drumkits etc either.

Violin, brass, percussion without ear protection for both players and (in some cases) nearby musicians represents a cumulative, exposure-related, hearing acuity loss risk.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #23
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
It could conceivably also be 180 degrees around from the handicap as you're painting it...that the musicians have the ability to hear "through" the sound, the sonic imprint the enclosure they're in...to the essence of the music, the ensemble interactions, the structure of the music that's being created...

...while you're the hapless individual hamstrung by the perceived impediments to it's appreciation and enjoyment: by the same sonic footprint of the enclosed space that they effortlessly transcend, the background traffic noises, the excessive echo (or overly damped, dry) etc.

The musicians are probably diving deeper into the depths of the experience, can perceive the layers and strata...while you're floundering in the waves at the shore, or being betrayed by the ice on the surface of the lake...unable to get out of the starting gate ?

I'm not saying that it makes your/our job any easier...to record successfully in an unsupportive (or actively subversive) acoustic...simply that they are oblivious to that quality of the environment, and the negative impact it has upon the recording.

Additionally...chances are they'd 'hear through' such a flawed recording, as it's not necessarily on their radar to register it, as a distraction ?
I think you're quite right; very probably necessary for them to hear through the environment in order to play well.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #24
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo ➡️
I am sorry, this kind of thinking won't get you very far.

Musicians don’t hear their own music through the same pathway as yours. For one, the instruments they play are placed as close to their ears as 3-4 inches, a far cry from any microphone placement. They anticipate the music as they play, make adjustment based on the room sound bouncing back to them. The fact the musicians can make good sound and music because they listen to themselves so well, can make infinite and lightning quick adjustment on how they play.

Record the same musician playing the same music in the same place with or without covering their ears with a pair of headphones and you will be totally amazed at how differently they would produce the sound, simply due to the difference they hear themselves with or without ear covering. We probably all experienced this: handing over a pair of headphone with music playing to someone and that person would immediately speak ten times louder back to you, because he couldn’t hear himself anymore.


It is true most of musicians don’t have good stereo systems in their house. Most of them don’t care and a lot of them can’t afford fancy stuff. The reality is that no matter how good a stereo system sound, to the musicians stereos don’t sound anywhere near to what they hear themselves day in and day out. As a musician myself, I can tell you that the recorded sound simply suck by comparison, even with all the latest technology in the world! As a recording engineer, you must attend live concerts often just to keep your ears in check. Recording engineers by default don’t listen to real sound in the hall due to its occupational hazard. You need to listen to the musicians you record very carefully and closely without going through microphones before you even think about capturing their sound that will remotely resemble what the musicians hear. Get close to the instrument, really close, as if you are playing it.
My remarks referred in no way to musicianship - just that because of all the points you made, it's nearly impossible to speak to most musicians with the same terms we use use with each other, because as you say they don't hear themselves the way neither the audience nor us as engineers do - therefore listening together to a recording that they like is extremely helpful; it doesn't require any common language about sound.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #25
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by M50k ➡️
listening together to a recording that they like is extremely helpful; it doesn't require any common language about sound.
i fully disagree on that notion: listening to music together may encourage you to believe that you are sharing something, but interpretation remains pure guesswork - you need a common langue to discuss things in detail.

after all, music is (about) interacting/communicating!
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #26
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
i fully disagree on that notion: listening to music together may encourage you to believe that you are sharing something, but interpretation remains pure guesswork - you need a common langue to discuss things in detail.

after all, music is (about) interacting/communicating!
I only meant that if they have a recording they like the sound of, you know what kind of sound to shoot for when you record them.

Just talking about recorded sound, not music; musicians don't tend to talk about sound in the same terms we do - that's what I meant about common language. I tells you if they prefer a closer, drier sound, for instance.

Isn't this what the OP was talking about? - that it can be difficult for musicians to communicate with engineers in terms that are useful to us?

Just to remind - my remarks were regarding "a surprisingly high percentage" of musicians - not all or even most.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #27
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by M50k ➡️
I only meant that if they have a recording they like the sound of, you know what kind of sound to shoot for when you record them.

Just talking about recorded sound, not music; musicians don't tend to talk about sound in the same terms we do - that's what I meant about common language. I tells you if they prefer a closer, drier sound, for instance.

Isn't this what the OP was talking about? - that it can be difficult for musicians to communicate with engineers in terms that are useful to us?

Just to remind - my remarks were regarding "a surprisingly high percentage" of musicians - not all or even most.
i'm not a linguist but i suspect that language always works in the same way, regardless of the topic: i think that you have to understand and penetrate a topic before you can talk about it and that this communication then has to take place in a common language; at least that's how i experience it when i work with people from other cultures and language areas - and come up against (sometimes insurmountable) limits of what can be said and communicated.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #28
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
However in terms of camps, allegiances, precedents...and hence recorded delivery standards...doesn't the music making, music recording and recorded-music consumption paradigm work something like this:

The worldwide collected recorded heritage to date represents the standard to which recording engineers and producers aspire and deliver. Within this realm, particular labels (past and present) create and maintain fashion and interpretive sub-genres (ECM, Telarc, Blue Note, Decca, etc) and selectively exist/thrive/wither away.

Musicians exist in the netherworld between the concert stage, the recording studio, radio and online broadcasts...YouTube/Vimeo, and (most entirely) in their individual and group rehearsals. They necessarily swim freely like fish between all these 'realities'...perhaps never adhering to one for very long. They might be the most privileged of this motley clan !

Recording and production personnel are the more tightly constrained translators, midwives and magicians....using the hardware (and now software) of their era to harness the mercurial musical spirit into something more permanent, conforming and familiar....for the benefit of the listeners of the recorded media.

For the enjoyment of the pure acoustic concert experience by audiences, we are unnecessary and irrelevant (with the notable exception of the live sound engineer of amplified music, who plays a pivotal and vital translational role...much as we do in the recording and transcription process)

So there's symbiosis between the parties involved...we need each other if recordings of substance and value are to be made....but there are discontinuities and disconnects as well. If we fail to deliver 'product' meeting the standards and expectations of listeners, shaped by 100+ years of recorded sound, we do so at our peril

Or, something like that...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #29
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
In my professional life I have recorded over 3500 live concerts and done a whole lot of mixing and mastering of music. I have been around musicians since I was in elementary school. I really got involved with professional classical musicians in college and then in my job at the local college. I have to say that professional musicians are a "breed apart" and I stand in awe of their professionalism and their dedication to their art. Having done recording sessions with them where we do 28 takes just so they can get the diminuendo and decrescendo right is a test of will power and of their professionalism. Congrats to them all.

Then there is the other side where they become petty and cannot hear what is wrong with the pickup of their instrument and want me to change the perspective of the recording to suit "their taste".

I had a second violinist who continually complained that he "could not hear himself" when doing recordings for release and literally wanted a "separate mic on my instrument" so he could hear himself in the recordings. Luckily the groups' leader had "other ideas" and he prevailed.

I have also had a musician tell me that my recordings "lacked bass" and when asked where he listened to this he said "in my home". Subsequently it was discovered that his home playback speakers were wired "out of phase" and the reason I know this is because I went to his home to see what he was talking about.

Then there are the musicians who constantly complain about everything having to do with a recording yet they never offer any constructive solutions. They also cannot tell me DEFINITIVELY what they want or don't want just that it "sounds wrong" and want it "fixed"

I had one musician who constantly complained about my recording of him. So I told him that I would spend an afternoon with him getting the sound he wanted. The setup he finally was comfortable with was a single microphone placed close to his instrument because he said "that is the way I hear myself". I even tried stereo miking him and he did not like the sound.

Most musicians are wonderful people to work with and to know. There are a few however that are not. End of story!!!
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #30
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
However in terms of camps, allegiances, precedents...and hence recorded delivery standards...doesn't the music making, music recording and recorded-music consumption paradigm work something like this:

The worldwide collected recorded heritage to date represents the standard to which recording engineers and producers aspire and deliver. Within this realm, particular labels (past and present) create and maintain fashion and interpretive sub-genres (ECM, Telarc, Blue Note, Decca, etc) and selectively exist/thrive/wither away.

Musicians exist in the netherworld between the concert stage, the recording studio, radio and online broadcasts...YouTube/Vimeo, and (most entirely) in their individual and group rehearsals. They necessarily swim freely like fish between all these 'realities'...perhaps never adhering to one for very long. They might be the most privileged of this motley clan !

Recording and production personnel are the more tightly constrained translators, midwives and magicians....using the hardware (and now software) of their era to harness the mercurial musical spirit into something more permanent, conforming and familiar....for the benefit of the listeners of the recorded media.

For the enjoyment of the pure acoustic concert experience by audiences, we are unnecessary and irrelevant (with the notable exception of the live sound engineer of amplified music, who plays a pivotal and vital translational role...much as we do in the recording and transcription process)

So there's symbiosis between the parties involved...we need each other if recordings of substance and value are to be made....but there are discontinuities and disconnects as well. If we fail to deliver 'product' meeting the standards and expectations of listeners, shaped by 100+ years of recorded sound, we do so at our peril

Or, something like that...
Indeed.

This is why Marc Aubort so valued Joanna Nickrenz as a producer; as a trained and accomplished classical pianist herself, her ability to communicate with musicians was indispensable.
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