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Double mid side? Well a variation with a quite different purpose...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
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norfolksoundman9's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Double mid side? Well a variation with a quite different purpose...

I've been playing around of late with a variation on double mid-side recording, but with the two mid mics both facing forward. With the mid mics having different polar patterns, you can - of course - decode each with the shared/common fig 8 then mix to create any virtual mid-mic polar pattern (in my case from omni to hypercardioid). In my case, I've used three AKG Blueline mics (CK92, CK93 and CK94).

So this gives a compact rig (mine is in a Rode blimp) with flexibility of both stereo width and polar pattern. Doubtless old hat to many of you, but in case anyone is interested I've written a post with some (fairly rough and ready) samples included: https://drbadphil.com/variation-on-d...side-recording

Cheers,

Roland
Attached Thumbnails
Double mid side? Well a variation with a quite different purpose...-_rhg7693.jpg  
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
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🎧 10 years
MKH 800/30 a lot easier Roland but less fun obviously.
Roger
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #3
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norfolksoundman9's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 ➡️
MKH 800/30 a lot easier Roland but less fun obviously.
Roger
Thanks Roger. Yes, the MKH 800/30 combination means you only need two mics and that this extends the range of the mid mic from omni to fig 8. But, of course, the MKH is a 'side-fire' mic isn't it? This rig of mine is geared to portability/fitting in a single blimp. And also is rather more affordable!

Cheers,

Roland
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4
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emrr's Avatar
 
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I’ve had good results with this approach. Definitely useful when unsure of ideal pattern.

One could argue the advantage over mkh800twin to be use of a pressure omni. Sometimes I’ll put an mkh20 up with an MKH800twin in DMS.

Last edited by emrr; 3 weeks ago at 09:19 PM..
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #5
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 ➡️
Thanks Roger. Yes, the MKH 800/30 combination means you only need two mics and that this extends the range of the mid mic from omni to fig 8. But, of course, the MKH is a 'side-fire' mic isn't it? This rig of mine is geared to portability/fitting in a single blimp. And also is rather more affordable!

Cheers,

Roland
Hi Roland
I use my 800/30 in a Rycote plus jammer
Vertical of course, but still portable.
Its affordable cos I traded in 4 X PGS and got 2 x MKH 800's...
Thats showbiz.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #6
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Looks like a good rig! Might it make more sense to stack it Hyper, Omni, Fig 8? This way the mics that are sharing the most information would have their capsules closest together. May be purely an academic exercise, I haven't had a chance to listen to your examples so I'm not commenting based on listening--shame on me.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #7
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 ➡️
Hi Roland
I use my 800/30 in a Rycote plus jammer
Vertical of course, but still portable.
Its affordable cos I traded in 4 X PGS and got 2 x MKH 800's...
Thats showbiz.
Hi Roger,

Good to hear you use them in a Rycote. Yes, vertical would work for most of what I do too: I guess I have been stuck in a horizontal frame of mind due to my SDC mics - though you may recall my massive DIY blimp for LDC MS, which was vertical of course.

Not sure what I could flog off for a pair of MKH800s. Probably wasted on what I record anyway!

Cheers,

Roland
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #8
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
power-user of 'conventional' double m/s here - it never crossed my mind to use the mics for a 'single' m/s array this way though, specifically an omni (to make it an l/c/r/lfe array), so thx much for the tip!

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 3 weeks ago at 08:22 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #9
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norfolksoundman9's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jheath ➡️
Looks like a good rig! Might it make more sense to stack it Hyper, Omni, Fig 8? This way the mics that are sharing the most information would have their capsules closest together. May be purely an academic exercise, I haven't had a chance to listen to your examples so I'm not commenting based on listening--shame on me.
Good to have your thoughts, but, of course, you want the capsules of each MS pair (i.e. omni and fig 8, and hypercardioid and fig 8) as coincident as possible.

The centres of my omni and hypercardioid capsules are only 50mm apart, and, of course, only separated in the vertical plane.

And, as I point out in the blog post, having the fig 8 in the middle of the blimp is good too, this capsule being the most susceptible to wind.

Cheers,

Roland
Old 3 weeks ago
  #10
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Hi Roland,

Obviously, the most versatile setup would be to use two 800Twin-like microphones. Not only you can vary the M mic pattern, you also can get full 360 degree MS compliment. You can have endless possibilities, all in the post. The only thing this does not do is the vertical/height plane.



Da_Hong
Old 3 weeks ago
  #11
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🎧 10 years
Hi Roland,

Obviously, the most versatile setup would be to use two 800Twin-like microphones. Not only you can vary the M mic pattern, you also can get full 360 degree MS compliment. You can have endless possibilities, all in the post. The only thing this does not do is the vertical/height plane.



Da_Hong
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #12
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norfolksoundman9's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo ➡️
Hi Roland,

Obviously, the most versatile setup would be to use two 800Twin-like microphones. Not only you can vary the M mic pattern, you also can get full 360 degree MS compliment. You can have endless possibilities, all in the post. The only thing this does not do is the vertical/height plane.



Da_Hong
Hi Da_Hong,

You are right, of course.

But I was thinking along more affordable lines (not least with more modest mics I have to hand - as indeed may others) and, as I said to Roger, of end-address mid-mics.

It just seemed a small step from my oft-used Blueline MS pair to add a second mid mic, and therefore remove some of difficulty of choosing which mid mic (CK91, CK92 or CK93) to use in fast-moving/quick 'n' dirty situations (e.g. for film/video).

Cheers,

Roland
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #13
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surflounge's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo ➡️
Hi Roland,

Obviously, the most versatile setup would be to use two 800Twin-like microphones. Not only you can vary the M mic pattern, you also can get full 360 degree MS compliment. You can have endless possibilities, all in the post. The only thing this does not do is the vertical/height plane.



Da_Hong
use two MKH800 twins with a Josephson C617 pointed vertical
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #14
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge ➡️
use two MKH800 twins with a Josephson C617 pointed vertical

If you are willing to use three mics, logically I would go with a third 800Twin, pointing vertically. You do get 360 degree MS that way.

It is an expensive exercise, though.

Lewitt LCT 640 TS, as well Austrian Audio OC818 would do that, too, at considerably lower prices.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #15
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 ➡️
Hi Da_Hong,

You are right, of course.

But I was thinking along more affordable lines (not least with more modest mics I have to hand - as indeed may others) and, as I said to Roger, of end-address mid-mics.

It just seemed a small step from my oft-used Blueline MS pair to add a second mid mic, and therefore remove some of difficulty of choosing which mid mic (CK91, CK92 or CK93) to use in fast-moving/quick 'n' dirty situations (e.g. for film/video).

Cheers,

Roland

In theory, you could use a Schoeps MK5, or a Shure KSM141as your M mic and have the adjustability. Shure is reasonably priced. Both are end-firing. But, if you have the mics already available and input track count to spare, I would use three mics as your original plan.



Da-Hong
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #16
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norfolksoundman9's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo ➡️
In theory, you could use a Schoeps MK5, or a Shure KSM141as your M mic and have the adjustability. Shure is reasonably priced. Both are end-firing. But, if you have the mics already available and input track count to spare, I would use three mics as your original plan.



Da-Hong
Thanks Da-Hong, but some confusion I think: both these excellent mics, of course, are adjustable at the time only, not in post, which is the point of my rig (as well as being continuously adjustable from omni through to hypercardioid). How much I will use it though, remains to be seen!

Incidentally, here's another version of 'The Auld Triangle' down in the windy woods with a shotgun mic (the new Rycote HC-15) as one of the mid mics: https://soundcloud.com/norfolksoundm...1e15615e0dc5bf

Cheers,

Roland
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #17
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 ➡️
Thanks Da-Hong, but some confusion I think: both these excellent mics, of course, are adjustable at the time only, not in post, which is the point of my rig (as well as being continuously adjustable from omni through to hypercardioid). How much I will use it though, remains to be seen!

Incidentally, here's another version of 'The Auld Triangle' down in the windy woods with a shotgun mic (the new Rycote HC-15) as one of the mid mics: https://soundcloud.com/norfolksoundm...1e15615e0dc5bf

Cheers,

Roland
Hi Roland,

I understand what you are trying to do.


But I see you mount both M mics on either side of the S mic, so there is a considerable distance between the two, therefore, I would be cautions to mix the two. At that distance, anything above 6-8KHz will cause a lot of out of phase problem. It is the wavelength thing again.



Best,

Da-Hong
Old 3 weeks ago
  #18
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emrr's Avatar
 
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🎧 10 years
Phase being a problem is a matter of distance and circumstance. I've put up pretty elaborate arrays that by nature (can only be so close) spread out over a good deal of vertical space, without anything audible.

I think with the OP's setup, I'd have the cardioid next to the 8, and the omni furthest, on the other side of the cardioid. I could be convinced to flop the omni closest to the 8....
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #19
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norfolksoundman9's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo ➡️
Hi Roland,

I understand what you are trying to do.


But I see you mount both M mics on either side of the S mic, so there is a considerable distance between the two, therefore, I would be cautions to mix the two. At that distance, anything above 6-8KHz will cause a lot of out of phase problem. It is the wavelength thing again.



Best,

Da-Hong
Thanks Da_Hong.

I understand the theory about mic separation and phase issues, but can't say I've noticed it any more than any other mid-side pair. Nothing I would describe as 'a lot'.

In this set up, as I said in a post above, the centres of the outer mics (hypercardioid and omni) are 50mm apart, with 30mm between these mics (and the fig 8 fits between them: there's about 5mm between each mic). When I use a mid-side pair of LDC mics set as close as possible, the centres of the two diaphragms are 70mm apart and the gap between one diaphragm and the other is 40mm. So larger than any spacing in this triple SDC set up. Many more discerning than me use similar LDC MS. And many use the current Rycote back-to-back clips for SDC MS, which place the mics significantly further apart than the old style clips, but without howling about phase issues.

Nevertheless, I had thought about bringing the mics closer (mainly to sit nearer the centre of a blimp to reduce wind issues) and grouping the mics in triangle, so that each mic body was 5mm apart - or closer than that: if the fig 8 was on top or bottom and the others side-by-side this would remove any shadowing of the fig 8 lobes. If you really think this is essential (and the close triangular arrangement wouldn't cause other equally detrimental effects), I could do this: the only thing preventing me doing this was having to DIY a close three-way mic clip (perhaps just rubber bands with some small stand-offs to keep the bodies apart) and a slight concern that have three mics jammed together might not be so good an idea.

I'm interested in thoughts about the effect of the current (small) distances involved vs other spacings for coincident mics (esp. with LDCs) and how much these actually reveal themselves as problems in the real world.

Cheers,

Roland
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #20
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 ➡️
Thanks Da_Hong.

I understand the theory about mic separation and phase issues, but can't say I've noticed it any more than any other mid-side pair. Nothing I would describe as 'a lot'.

In this set up, as I said in a post above, the centres of the outer mics (hypercardioid and omni) are 50mm apart, with 30mm between these mics (and the fig 8 fits between them: there's about 5mm between each mic). When I use a mid-side pair of LDC mics set as close as possible, the centres of the two diaphragms are 70mm apart and the gap between one diaphragm and the other is 40mm. So larger than any spacing in this triple SDC set up. Many more discerning than me use similar LDC MS. And many use the current Rycote back-to-back clips for SDC MS, which place the mics significantly further apart than the old style clips, but without howling about phase issues.

Nevertheless, I had thought about bringing the mics closer (mainly to sit nearer the centre of a blimp to reduce wind issues) and grouping the mics in triangle, so that each mic body was 5mm apart - or closer than that: if the fig 8 was on top or bottom and the others side-by-side this would remove any shadowing of the fig 8 lobes. If you really think this is essential (and the close triangular arrangement wouldn't cause other equally detrimental effects), I could do this: the only thing preventing me doing this was having to DIY a close three-way mic clip (perhaps just rubber bands with some small stand-offs to keep the bodies apart) and a slight concern that have three mics jammed together might not be so good an idea.

I'm interested in thoughts about the effect of the current (small) distances involved vs other spacings for coincident mics (esp. with LDCs) and how much these actually reveal themselves as problems in the real world.

Cheers,

Roland

Hi Roland,

Well, the wavelength of 6Khz is about 5.6cm. If the source is perfectly perpendicular to the microphones you should be fine. But, once the source is off axis, in your case, up or down, things can get ugly pretty fast. I understand this may or may not bother you, sonically. However, the comb filter effect is a learnt “hatred” that is very hard to un-learn.

When I setup MS, I do tape my MKH30 and 20 together, with a slice of double-sided adhesive tape between the two mics to keep the correct orientation. That is as close as I can mount the two mics. If either the MKH800 or the Twins are involved, unfortunately, the distance between the M and S will be greater than what I can do with the MKH30/20.

I used to use an AKGC414 figure8 and Schoeps mk2H with an elbow as my MS. That combo also offered me pretty close distance between them, about 2cm from center to center of the two capsules. It worked well enough. I prefer MKH30/20 much better.

Personally, I don’t use any LDC for most of my work. The couple of projects where I used U47 LDC they were spots for the vocal soloists.



Best,

Da-Hong
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #21
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norfolksoundman9's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo ➡️
Hi Roland,

Well, the wavelength of 6Khz is about 5.6cm. If the source is perfectly perpendicular to the microphones you should be fine. But, once the source is off axis, in your case, up or down, things can get ugly pretty fast. I understand this may or may not bother you, sonically. However, the comb filter effect is a learnt “hatred” that is very hard to un-learn.

When I setup MS, I do tape my MKH30 and 20 together, with a slice of double-sided adhesive tape between the two mics to keep the correct orientation. That is as close as I can mount the two mics. If either the MKH800 or the Twins are involved, unfortunately, the distance between the M and S will be greater than what I can do with the MKH30/20.

I used to use an AKGC414 figure8 and Schoeps mk2H with an elbow as my MS. That combo also offered me pretty close distance between them, about 2cm from center to center of the two capsules. It worked well enough. I prefer MKH30/20 much better.

Personally, I don’t use any LDC for most of my work. The couple of projects where I used U47 LDC they were spots for the vocal soloists.



Best,

Da-Hong
Hi Da-Hong,

Thanks for further thoughts: very useful.

Happy to accept I have cloth ears - and, like fine wine, it could be financially dangerous to become more refined in my appreciation - but I might as well improve this rig if it is just a case of re-jigging the mic positions.

As I fell asleep last night, I realized the obvious - i.e. I could set the back-to-back clips in my Rode blimp horizontally, for two mics side-by-side, then clip one on top. No need for DIY. This places the mics in a triangle with 5mm between the bodies, and 23mm from centre-to-centre. That's seems pretty close. OK the fig 8 is now 28mm from the edge of the blimp, but that isn't too worryingly close: and the other mics are, of course, a lot further from the edge of the blimp. This configuration is also more stable.

Any issues/downsides from this arrangement?

Cheers,

Roland
Attached Thumbnails
Double mid side? Well a variation with a quite different purpose...-_rhg7694.jpg  
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #22
It is that dseetoo mentioned the phase issues, I rather avoid discussions about it and MS-technique itself. One remark about the picture you attached to your post, now you are sideways blocking your cardioid and your hyper-cardioid. This will cause a very uneven a-symmetrical polar patterns for both your cardioid and hyper-cardioid capsules.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orgeltonmeister ➡️
It is that dseetoo mentioned the phase issues, I rather avoid discussions about it and MS-technique itself. One remark about the picture you attached to your post, now you are sideways blocking your cardioid and your hyper-cardioid. This will cause a very uneven a-symmetrical polar patterns for both your cardioid and hyper-cardioid capsules.
Thanks!

This was exactly my fear, as I said in a previous post: but is it one (slightly theoretical) concern vs another, or is one compromise clearly preferable?

I would be interested in Roger's practical and experienced view on which - if either - would be the better option: I have a vague memory that in one of his MS set-ups there is some theoretical shadowing that has no real discernible effect. Is that right Roger?

Also Da-Hong's MS rigs (e.g. MKH30 and 20 taped together) implies a similar (non?) effect.

Incidentally, there is no cardioid in my set up: omni, fig 8 and hypercardioid.

Cheers,

Roland
Old 3 weeks ago
  #24
Here for the gear
May I add here, what I tried some months ago, recording my harpsichord-playing?
It can be tried out directly in the browser.
http://www.stefan-kiessling.de/?Thema=mmsstereo

I used Fig. 8 and Omni for the mid, alternatively to the omni a wide cardioid, which leads to different result, certainly because of its cleaner polar pattern.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #25
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajmund ➡️
May I add here, what I tried some months ago, recording my harpsichord-playing?
It can be tried out directly in the browser.
http://www.stefan-kiessling.de/?Thema=mmsstereo

I used Fig. 8 and Omni for the mid, alternatively to the omni a wide cardioid, which leads to different result, certainly because of its cleaner polar pattern.
Thanks for chipping in Stefan. As with your doubled version (Flexible stereo setup (not only) for organ recording), I do like your snazzy adjustable playback in your browser!

Cheers,

Roland
Old 3 weeks ago
  #26
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All this position and phase stuff goes right out the window into the inconsequential basket when you look at Rolo 46’s vertical front/rear MS placement, and listen to his recordings. We’ve talked about this many times. Sure, ANY mic next to another mic alters the off axis pattern in some way. Check your reality against the theoretical.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emrr ➡️
All this position and phase stuff goes right out the window into the inconsequential basket when you look at Rolo 46’s vertical front/rear MS placement, and listen to his recordings. We’ve talked about this many times. Sure, ANY mic next to another mic alters the off axis pattern in some way. Check your reality against the theoretical.
Thanks.

My feelings too, notwithstanding that I don't pretend to have the most discerning ears.

And I thought that was the case with Roger's (Rolo46's) excellent MS recordings.

The more one thinks about it, so many coincident mic arrays have similar proximity (not just double MS, but even basic XY) and plenty of arrays have significant distance between capsules (not just LDC MS, but also some SDC MS: see for example, Cinela's rig for a Schoeps CMC MS Pair).

Cheers,

Roland
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #28
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 ➡️
The more one thinks about it, so many coincident mic arrays have similar proximity (not just double MS, but even basic XY) and plenty of arrays have significant distance between capsules (not just LDC MS, but also some SDC MS: see for example, Cinela's rig for a Schoeps CMC MS Pair).

Cheers,

Roland
For example.....https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bBzSrW...e=emb_imp_woyt
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Indeed, Ray.

Cheers,

R
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 ➡️
Hi Da-Hong,

Thanks for further thoughts: very useful.

Happy to accept I have cloth ears - and, like fine wine, it could be financially dangerous to become more refined in my appreciation - but I might as well improve this rig if it is just a case of re-jigging the mic positions.

As I fell asleep last night, I realized the obvious - i.e. I could set the back-to-back clips in my Rode blimp horizontally, for two mics side-by-side, then clip one on top. No need for DIY. This places the mics in a triangle with 5mm between the bodies, and 23mm from centre-to-centre. That's seems pretty close. OK the fig 8 is now 28mm from the edge of the blimp, but that isn't too worryingly close: and the other mics are, of course, a lot further from the edge of the blimp. This configuration is also more stable.

Any issues/downsides from this arrangement?

Cheers,

Roland

Hi Roland,

I am wondering, instead of MSM bundle, could you rig them to be MMS vertical bundle? That might be a better compromise, no?



Best,

Da-Hong
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