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Why two mic for the soloist ?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Why two mic for the soloist ?

Hello,

I am soon to record a lyric singer and orchestra. My first idea was to place a spot microphone for the soloist, but in Warner Classic recordings we always see an AB stereo couple spot for the soloists (sometimes at a slight angle).
Do you know why we use a couple for lyrical singers who also tend to move a lot.





And here on violin ?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #2
Gear Addict
 
Sabovic Adis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
who also tend to move a lot.
I think that's the reason.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3
Lives for gear
 
See previous discussion here:

spaced pair vocal spots

Sometimes three (or even seven) mics, not two!
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #4
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
it's just a recent phenomenon...
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #5
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabovic Adis ➡️
I think that's the reason.
If he move a lot, we can ear the sound moving from left to right
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganMaster ➡️
If he move a lot, we can ear the sound moving from left to right
Read the previous thread I linked to; all this and more is discussed in great detail there.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #7
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradh ➡️
Read the previous thread I linked to; all this and more is discussed in great detail there.
I read ! they say it's to get a bigger stereo image and the spot stereo tightened mics don't generate right and left ping pong effect.
Except that, if we watch this video, the sound of the singer's spots is awful, we hear phase problems and the sound rocking from left to right.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Here's what I find interesting in the Lea Desandre video . . . they're using WA47 mics. And by badge positioning, it looks like they are panned slightly out.
Attached Thumbnails
Why two mic for the soloist ?-wa47-mic.jpg  
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganMaster ➡️
I read ! they say it's to get a bigger stereo image and the spot stereo tightened mics don't generate right and left ping pong effect.
Except that, if we watch this video, the sound of the singer's spots is awful, we hear phase problems and the sound rocking from left to right.
I don't think you read that thread carefully enough. There's discussion about how to avoid these problems; if the video shows these issues the fault is more likely the engineer's than the technique's.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #10
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
FWIW, these images show much wider spacing than that recommended in the Decca book: 8-12". Even then, they often suggest panning them in 70-90% L/R.

Can't see the advantages of these wider spacings - would seem to only create more problems.

Regarding stereo spots in general, for folks who listen a lot on headphones, that razor-thin slice of sound in the middle of your head, that one gets with mono spots, is not pleasant!
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
it's just a recent phenomenon...
Volker Straus did use it already back in seventees. I have a Philips vinyl record with violinist Herman Krebbers and you clearly hear Krebbers move during a violin-concierto with big orchestra. I assume Straus used his Straus-pairs in a stereo configuration for Krebbers, just the way he also recorded string quartet using a total of 18 microphones.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #12
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by M50k ➡️
Regarding stereo spots in general, for folks who listen a lot on headphones, that razor-thin slice of sound in the middle of your head, that one gets with mono spots, is not pleasant!
nope - but it illustrates quite well the difference between 'recordists' and 'mixers'!
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #13
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orgeltonmeister ➡️
Volker Straus did use it already back in seventees. I have a Philips vinyl record with violinist Herman Krebbers and you clearly hear Krebbers move during a violin-concierto with big orchestra. I assume Straus used his Straus-pairs in a stereo configuration for Krebbers, just the way he also recorded string quartet using a total of 18 microphones.
correct - i can't get blamed for using a minimal mic approach either but using two (or more!) mics on each and every source imo is just a waste of resources...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #14
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Why does GS auto-capitalize the word 'headphones'? - I didn't type it that way. Looks ridiculous.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #15
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganMaster ➡️
I read ! they say it's to get a bigger stereo image and the spot stereo tightened mics don't generate right and left ping pong effect.
Except that, if we watch this video, the sound of the singer's spots is awful, we hear phase problems and the sound rocking from left to right.
Not to mention, and absolutely horrible room to record something like that !!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #16
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jnorman's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
I see a lot of variation in the spacing of small AB vocal spots. Plush has mentioned 1-2”, which sounds appropriate, and Studer mentions XY which also seems like it would work well, but many of the linked photos and videos show spacing of several inches which seem to me like they would exaggerate movement of the singer. I recently used a 6” spacing on a soprano, and wished I had made it closer…
What spacing are you guys using?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #17
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
In this video, at 0'32", the singer move a lot, but I don't listen the sound moving L-R. How is it possible ?

Old 4 weeks ago
  #18
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Might have decided not to use both mics in the final mix!
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #19
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman ➡️
I see a lot of variation in the spacing of small AB vocal spots. Plush has mentioned 1-2”, which sounds appropriate, and Studer mentions XY which also seems like it would work well, but many of the linked photos and videos show spacing of several inches which seem to me like they would exaggerate movement of the singer. I recently used a 6” spacing on a soprano, and wished I had made it closer…
What spacing are you guys using?
Have used XY for oratorio vocal spots, but still too narrow for my taste; very convenient, though - and much preferred over a single mic.

Also especially with soloists and orch, XY picks up too much from the sides compared to parallel cards.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #20
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganMaster ➡️
In this video, at 0'32", the singer move a lot, but I don't listen the sound moving L-R. How is it possible ?
imo there are exactly three reasons why one may want to use two mics on a singer:

- for redundancy in critical live situations
- if a singer moves a lot
- to get a bit of ambience wrapped around the singer/to make the signal wider.

in case only the latter is required, mics are often positioned relatively close and/or the pan setting should not be set too wide - however, i prefer using a mono in/stereo out efx for this and for a singer who move a lot, i rather put a single mic at a bit larger distance and then adjust its pattern as needed.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #21
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
imo there are exactly three reasons why one may want to use two mics on a singer:

- for redundancy in critical live situations
- if a singer moves a lot
- to get a bit of ambience wrapped around the singer/to make the signal wider.

in case only the latter is required, mics are often positioned relatively close and/or the pan setting should not be set too wide - however, i prefer using a mono in/stereo out efx for this and for a singer who move a lot, i rather put a single mic at a bit larger distance and then adjust its pattern as needed.
Ok, but the question is why we don't hear the sound moving while the singer move ?
This video is just an exemple, you can find a lot of similar videos.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #22
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganMaster ➡️
Ok, but the question is why we don't hear the sound moving while the singer move ?
This video is just an exemple, you can find a lot of similar videos.
simply due to the laws of physics: if a pair of (mostly) identical mics, positioned close together, picks up mostly the same sound, there is not much of a difference between the two signals which then combine to quasi-mono/narrow stereo - but you got twice the noise, off-axis colouration, early reflections etc.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #23
Lives for gear
 
mpdonahue's Avatar
It is mostly because of the sound. Mono spot microphones for a soloist make the image collapse. Having a stereo pickup allows you to use more of the spots without getting the ugly "mono mic popping out of the texture" sound.
Side by side is fine if the person doesn't move around much, but for singers I tend to use a vertical pair. Singers tend to move side to side, not up and down.
As always, YMMV.
All the best,
Mark
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #24
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
simply due to the laws of physics: if a pair of (mostly) identical mics, positioned close together, picks up mostly the same sound, there is not much of a difference between the two signals which then combine to quasi-mono/narrow stereo - but you got twice the noise, off-axis colouration, early reflections etc.
Hmm, I'm not sure, or the pan has been very narrow, close to mono. Maybe it's true if the microphones are 10cm spaced, but not 30cm.
Tomorrow I'll make a test with two identicals mics in front of a soloist and I'll ask him to move a lot.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #25
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpdonahue ➡️
It is mostly because of the sound. Mono spot microphones for a soloist make the image collapse. Having a stereo pickup allows you to use more of the spots without getting the ugly "mono mic popping out of the texture" sound.
Side by side is fine if the person doesn't move around much, but for singers I tend to use a vertical pair. Singers tend to move side to side, not up and down.
As always, YMMV.
All the best,
Mark
Vertical ? Like this video ?



How does this technique reduce the ping-pong effect?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #26
Lives for gear
 
mpdonahue's Avatar
No. Think up and down, not left and right.
-mark
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #27
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganMaster ➡️
Hmm, I'm not sure, or the pan has been very narrow, close to mono. Maybe it's true if the microphones are 10cm spaced, but not 30cm.
Tomorrow I'll make a test with two identicals mics in front of a soloist and I'll ask him to move a lot.
spacing becomes less of an issue at larger distance and in larger rooms - and of course one can use orientation, width and pan width all together to get the desired results...

...but yeah, give it a try (or use a single mic plus efx)!
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #28
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganMaster ➡️
Vertical ? Like this video ?



How does this technique reduce the ping-pong effect?
No I think Mark is referring to the separate mics (capsules) being one above the other vertically, not just the bodies vertical and off axis.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #29
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Yup. Over/Under.

Provides 'space' without any specific 'imaging'.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #30
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganMaster ➡️
Ok, but the question is why we don't hear the sound moving while the singer move ?
This video is just an exemple, you can find a lot of similar videos.
simple answer….panned inwards as necessary and appropriate to the mix context. 2 mics on a source don’t have to be hard left/right by immovable default….
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