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Which mic setup for solo violin
Old 11th November 2021 | Show parent
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya ➡️
That’s one of those dream venues, the JCK. Everything I hear from there sounds like it was recorded in heaven.
I wanted it this time, but they are renovating the roof at the moment. It is very close to where I live.

Now we are going to use the Andreaskirche in Wannsee, not far either, smaller, wooden ceiling, not as good for monitoring, but appropriate for the occasion.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #62
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I have a cheap condenser mic that works well enough, but I'm wondering if there are other options. After researching, I've found that violin recordings usually fall into two categories: close and distant. Close micing is used for classical music and soloists where the violinist is sitting or standing nearby the mic; it involves a small diaphragm and large-diaphragm condenser microphone. Distant micing is used for recording a string quartet, large orchestra, or another ensemble. The violin is farther away from the microphones, making the sound more natural and ambient. These are usually dynamic microphones because they pick up a wide frequency range and don't distort as easily as condensers. Also, I am thinking of buying an SM57 (dynamic mic) from https://www.evergreenviolin.com/. Do you think that I should get another one?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orgeltonmeister ➡️
60-65cm wide. The Bach Partita was just a small part of the performance. Several combinations of ensembles performed, including string-quartet and violin/piano. Unfortunately the sound moves a bit, they never can stand still.
A great way to get the spaciousness of A-B without a wandering image (on a solo instrument), is to space the mics vertically rather than laterally. Obviously, they have to be carefully placed equidistant from the player for a centered image.

I think Plush has talked about this on other threads.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #64
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by M50k ➡️
A great way to get the spaciousness of A-B without a wandering image (on a solo instrument), is to space the mics vertically rather than laterally. They have to be carefully placed equidistant from the player for a centered image.
You still get spectral differences in propagation in the vertical plane, and perhaps almost as much wander if the player moves their torso. It might be mitigated with narrow AB however.

See propagation diagrams for various instruments in post no.12 linked below, for both horizontal and vertical modes: Rostopovich Microphone setup
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #65
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🎧 5 years
Absolutely useless if the player does deep knee bends while performing!
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #66
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Works great if the violinist plays standing on his head tho.

D.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M50k ➡️
Absolutely useless if the player does deep knee bends while performing!
Mic placement is an exercise in selective omission (or aiming for least flawed gathering) of audio information....see pics in Rostropovich link above
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #68
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot ➡️
Works great if the violinist plays standing on his head tho.

D.
Doug, you're a matelot on a sea of questionable humour !
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #69
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
You still get spectral differences in propagation in the vertical plane, and perhaps almost as much wander if the player moves their torso. It might be mitigated with narrow AB however.

See propagation diagrams for various instruments in post no.12 linked below, for both horizontal and vertical modes: Rostopovich Microphone setup
Indeed - a solo instrument recording doesn't require much A-B spacing.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Doug, you're a matelot on a sea of questionable humour !
Questionable humor is my forte.

Good word though.

D.
Old 1 week ago
  #71
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And okay, I see the plusses in discussing the benefits or downside to whatever technique we all want to discuss. But sometimes, it just becomes some academic exercise. What if the violinist actually does play while standing on his head? Or only has one arm? Or plays the cello like a violin?

Isn't that why we haven't been replaced by robots? Or why some of us can't abide A-B pairs. Or those that believe that one way to do things is perfect and your way? Not so much.

So here's the reality. I recorded a symphony orchestra last night with 16 inputs. To me? It sounded flat and muddy. But that is what the client wanted. They paid on the spot. Right into my account. Do I think it woulda sound better with a nice A-B pair (or ORTF pair for those who don't like A-B) and some wide cardioid flankers? Well yes, actually I do.

Is that what the paying client wanted. No it isn't. Did I spend any time trying to talk them out of what they wanted. No I didn't. I am the engineer being paid by a client to provide. Done.

D.

Oh and all mono spot mics. Haha!
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot ➡️
Is that what the paying client wanted. No it isn't. Did I spend any time trying to talk them out of what they wanted. No I didn't. I am the engineer being paid by a client to provide. Done.

D.

Oh and all mono spot mics. Haha!
So the client brief to you was “record this event with 16 mics” with no caveat on resulting quality of recording….rather than “record this with however many mics it takes to make it sound fantastic….I trust you, you’re the experienced professional, you always get great results” ?

The customer is always right, if they are paying (and do) ….so I guess the question is simply ‘did you deliver the best recording possible’ within the imposed conditions ?

The “more mics must be better” is a very prevalent myth, amongst large parts of the recording/sound reinforcement industry
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #73
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Ya know? Whoever edits the recording can use as many mics as they wish.

D.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot ➡️
Ya know? Whoever edits the recording can use as many mics as they wish.

D.
Of course….and why stop at 16 !
Old 1 week ago
  #75
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🎧 10 years
More microphone is not necessarily better, but it could make mixing session a lot easier.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
The “more mics must be better” is a very prevalent myth, amongst large parts of the recording/sound reinforcement industry
the “less mics must be better” is a very prevalent myth amongst large parts of the location recording community.


___


as someone who's into location (and studio) recording, live (and studio) mixing and broadcasting, i'd like to repeat the one decisive advantage of using a multitude of mics even on relatively small ensembles (or solists):
it gives the producer (whoever then takes on this role) options in terms of how to present the soloist, ensemble, orchestra, choir etc.

of course using a multi-mic approach does have a couple of downsides as well (one of which is that it can drastically exhibit the technician's lack of mixing skills...) but to call this approach generally worse can only be done by someone who has never tried it!
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
but to call this approach generally worse can only be done by someone who has never tried it!
Well, that's a bit heavy-handed eh? I have done it both ways for many, many years and while there are advantages to both methods, I still contend that less mics provide a clearer audio picture of an acoustic performance than does a multi-mic session. Yeah but, yeah but. Of course. (Sometimes) having a choice of mics is a good thing, even if the mixer does not use them all. (Sometimes) having solo spots can allow a weak player to exist better in a mix. (Sometimes) multi-mic'ing with spot mics will help tame a bad acoustic space. (Sometimes) multi-mics might assist the work done on mixed acoustic/electric performances in huge spaces.

But for me, with the acts I record and the spaces in which I record them, (sometime) four mics are better than 16 in all regards. And anyone who thinks that there isn't a skill to recording a brilliant performance brilliantly with four mics should consider if their use of many many mics isn't just a crutch to allow for technical FUs to be corrected later. The provebial net under the flying trapeze.

BTW, before anyone boils over, there is no-one's particular style being put down. Folks like Deedee do an entirely different sort of work than I do. As do many here. We all figure out what works don't we? It seems like a bit of a slap to talk about us "minimal mic-ists" as being unskilled. Could I do Deedee's job? Probably not as well but I could do it. Could 4 mics have done a better job at rendering the Youth Symphony to CDs. than 16? Maybe.

Was I going to go to battle with the group about what they wanted/needed. Not likely.

D.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot ➡️
Well, that's a bit heavy-handed eh? I have done it both ways for many, many years and while there are advantages to both methods, I still contend that less mics provide a clearer audio picture of an acoustic performance than does a multi-mic session. Yeah but, yeah but. Of course. (Sometimes) having a choice of mics is a good thing, even if the mixer does not use them all. (Sometimes) having solo spots can allow a weak player to exist better in a mix. (Sometimes) multi-mic'ing with spot mics will help tame a bad acoustic space. (Sometimes) multi-mics might assist the work done on mixed acoustic/electric performances in huge spaces.

But for me, with the acts I record and the spaces in which I record them, (sometime) four mics are better than 16 in all regards. And anyone who thinks that there isn't a skill to recording a brilliant performance brilliantly with four mics should consider if their use of many many mics isn't just a crutch to allow for technical FUs to be corrected later. The provebial net under the flying trapeze.

BTW, before anyone boils over, there is no-one's particular style being put down. Folks like Deedee do an entirely different sort of work than I do. As do many here. We all figure out what works don't we? It seems like a bit of a slap to talk about us "minimal mic-ists" as being unskilled. Could I do Deedee's job? Probably not as well but I could do it. Could 4 mics have done a better job at rendering the Youth Symphony to CDs. than 16? Maybe.

Was I going to go to battle with the group about what they wanted/needed. Not likely.

D.
'heavy handed'? - not really, just reflecting reality...

it's not just the number of options i prefer to have, but i contradict the idea that a simpler mapping with less microphones leads to a more detailed representation: for me the opposite is true!* - provided one adapts one's mixing technique to a different approach...

...which i doubt that the majority of the technicians active in this particular forum have ever tried to do - i could of course be wrong but i suspect they are already scared off from the amount of gear that's needed when using dozens of mics?



* do people who have recorded a drum kit with multiple mics also think that a presentation from say just the overheads is more detailed than from a fully mic'ed kit?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
* do people who have recorded a drum kit with multiple mics also think that a presentation from say just the overheads is more detailed than from a fully mic'ed kit?
This is silly reasoning of course. The number of times I have had a trap kit on my stage, since I left the rock and roll world, can be counted on one hand.

If it were a drum set as a part of a symphonic performance, I wouldn't put any mics on it at all.

If it was part of a jazz ensemble, of course I would multi mic the drum kit. And everything else. Entirely different animal that invites and entirely different set of gear and skills. Iron Maiden, even another set.

And I guess that is what I was trying to say: different work calls for different techniques and for me, on acoustic music, the least amount of mics that my experience tells me will work is what I put up.

U2's FOH mixer would probably not put four mics across the front of his stage and expect an acceptable result.

Maybe the point I was trying to make is that there are real skills involved in both techniques. No need to belittle the skills of minimal mic guys as substandard.

D.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot ➡️
This is silly reasoning of course. The number of times I have had a trap kit on my stage, since I left the rock and roll world, can be counted on one hand.

If it were a drum set as a part of a symphonic performance, I wouldn't put any mics on it at all.

If it was part of a jazz ensemble, of course I would multi mic the drum kit. And everything else. Entirely different animal that invites and entirely different set of gear and skills. Iron Maiden, even another set.

And I guess that is what I was trying to say: different work calls for different techniques and for me, on acoustic music, the least amount of mics that my experience tells me will work is what I put up.

U2's FOH mixer would probably not put four mics across the front of his stage and expect an acceptable result.

Maybe the point I was trying to make is that there are real skills involved in both techniques. No need to belittle the skills of minimal mic guys as substandard.

D.
imo this isn't a silly reasoning at all: a drum kit can be seen as a (percussion) ensemble, consisting of a variety of instruments with vastly different functions, features, behaviour, projection, transients, frequency spectrum, spl range etc. that you pick up with spots, mains and ambis.

i encourage anyone to try to make a transfer between techniques used in different genre (from classical to jazz and beyond), situations (live and studio, amplified or non-amplified) and applications (location recording, sr, broadcasting) and not just stick with traditional methods!

i did not say that a minimal mic approach substandard - those who have never done anything else might do better to refrain from criticizing the very thing they have never practiced themselves...
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