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An inexpensive way to do a multi-camera recording of a live gig?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #31
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The better you shoot your video to begin with, the fewer corrections will have to be applied in Resolve in edit thereby reducing the load on your laptop. So you want to shoot with the correct white balance, exposure, and framing so you don't end up in a situation where so many corrections are being applied in the edit that it takes forever to process.

Here is a video explaining the difference between the ATEM pro and the ATEM iso pro. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrtZAt38l90 With each model, you have to set them up to delay the audio input to match the video stream (assuming you capture a two track mixdown from your livetrack). This can be done in the ATEM control software.

Your other option is to sync your multitrack later in Resolve.

The ATEMs are primarily designed for live streaming of a multi camera shoot with the ISO model having the ability to record each camera track separately for editing of the whole affair later.

If you're just going to set up 4 cameras and let them run without trying to switch between them during the recording, you can save yourself this expense and just capture the video on the cameras but sync it all later in Resolve.

Resolve has a learning curve like anything else. Install the free version. Shoot some test footage. Sync and edit it, and then you can see how it all works together.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by quarantinebeats ➡️
The second video has more done in the way of post-production, both editing and color, but those are things you can pick up down the line. Focus on the capture for now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by quarantinebeats ➡️
If by drum clicks you mean the drummer hitting his sticks together to count in, that might work as long as it's loud enough for all the cameras to pick it up. The reason the clap is suggested is because it gives an easy visual to see when you're scrubbing through footage and an easily defined transient spike in the waveform to line everything up. Resolve uses the audio to line up the waveforms so that's the important part, the clap is mostly for visual reference. You can do a test to see if the click is enough relatively easily, though.
Hey thanks for the feedback on the 2 videos. I was watching some more of the UK Rock Show on Youtube and they actually did a 'making of' video where they go behind the scenes and show you how they set everything up for that 'In the round' livestream. They explain some stuff about the cameras too. If you've got a couple of mins, here is the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRJDX-VdqoU

(For the bit about their video setup, you only need to watch from around 1min 30 to 2mins 40.

Notice they mention about doing clapping to check the video and audio were in sync - what are they doing there? It was for a live stream, but were they filming something and recording the sound separately and checking the sync while clapping?

It looks like they use a laptop with some sort of software for the video stream, but I can't be sure (you can see this at around 1min 45 in the video - it looks like this could be OBS - Open Broadcaster Software, but maybe with something else too?).

Also at 2m36 in, you can see there are some extra video screens (to the right of their laptop) - what are these, and are they used for monitoring the videos or something?

Now this has got me thinking that it'd be awesome to do a livestream in the future too!
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #33
Gear Nut
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nksoloproject ➡️
Notice they mention about doing clapping to check the video and audio were in sync - what are they doing there? It was for a live stream, but were they filming something and recording the sound separately and checking the sync while clapping? They were making sure that the video signal was synced to the external audio signal (microphone, probably) --
Right. Whenever you have a video source and are trying to match it to an audio source recorded separately, there's always going to be at least a little bit of delay between the two sources that has to be accounted for or else the video will appear to display "out of sync" with the audio.

So they had someone stand and clap in the room while another person monitored the video while listening to the external audio. Using the visual input of the clapping you can manually adjust the timing between the two sources so they line up.

Basically just a "live" version of what you would otherwise do in post production for a recorded event, except you need to get it right here because the broadcast is live!

Quote:
It looks like they use a laptop with some sort of software for the video stream, but I can't be sure (you can see this at around 1min 45 in the video - it looks like this could be OBS - Open Broadcaster Software, but maybe with something else too?).
Yes, looks like OBS.

Quote:
Also at 2m36 in, you can see there are some extra video screens (to the right of their laptop) - what are these, and are they used for monitoring the videos or something?
Yep! Looks like a switcher with some built in monitors to show you the inputs, and possibly allow for some control over editing and transitioning, too. I don't know much about the hardware in this side of things (I just use a BM Atem, which provides the same general functionality sans screen).

Quote:
Now this has got me thinking that it'd be awesome to do a livestream in the future too!
If you're really interested in this then I would plan around it as it requires 1. more equipment (namely some kind of input box that allows you to take all your sources and mix them together)
2. your cameras need to have reliable video out connections
3. your lighting and color need to be better in the room because there's no opportunity to fix in post

That all comes at additional time/cost, but it can be a good revenue stream if you pull it off, so it's worth looking into, imo.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #34
Quote:
Originally Posted by quarantinebeats ➡️
Right. Whenever you have a video source and are trying to match it to an audio source recorded separately, there's always going to be at least a little bit of delay between the two sources that has to be accounted for or else the video will appear to display "out of sync" with the audio.

So they had someone stand and clap in the room while another person monitored the video while listening to the external audio. Using the visual input of the clapping you can manually adjust the timing between the two sources so they line up.

Basically just a "live" version of what you would otherwise do in post production for a recorded event, except you need to get it right here because the broadcast is live!
Ok so they're putting their audio through their mixer, then the cameras and the mixer audio are routed to their laptop (running OBS) to be broadcast out for the livestream?

Quote:
Originally Posted by quarantinebeats ➡️
Yes, looks like OBS.
Is OBS only for livestreams, or can it be used for recording also? I heard it's free, so worth looking into.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quarantinebeats ➡️
Yep! Looks like a switcher with some built in monitors to show you the inputs, and possibly allow for some control over editing and transitioning, too. I don't know much about the hardware in this side of things (I just use a BM Atem, which provides the same general functionality sans screen).
They must have a pretty big budget! Or maybe they hired someone who has all the expertise and equipment for that particular livestream.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quarantinebeats ➡️
If you're really interested in this then I would plan around it as it requires 1. more equipment (namely some kind of input box that allows you to take all your sources and mix them together)
You mean an input box to mix the audio and the cameras together? So if all the instruments are going direct into a digital mixer, you'd take the L and R master outputs of the mixer, plus the outputs of each camera into some kind of input box, which is then plugged into the laptop? I could be totally wrong here. When you say 'some kind of input box', do you mean something like the ATEM mini/Pro etc?

Quote:
Originally Posted by quarantinebeats ➡️
your cameras need to have reliable video out connections
So HDMI or SDI?

Quote:
Originally Posted by quarantinebeats ➡️
That all comes at additional time/cost, but it can be a good revenue stream if you pull it off, so it's worth looking into, imo.
Definitely one for the future! We're not ready yet but I want to have all the knowledge and equipment for when we are.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #35
Gear Nut
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nksoloproject ➡️
Ok so they're putting their audio through their mixer, then the cameras and the mixer audio are routed to their laptop (running OBS) to be broadcast out for the livestream?
Yes. You'll need a video mixer too if you're using multiple cameras, and then send that stream out.

Quote:
Is OBS only for livestreams, or can it be used for recording also? I heard it's free, so worth looking into.
OBS can record from virtually any audio and video source you get into the computer, but dedicated recording software is almost always better on the editing side so I wouldn't bother learning it over one of the free DAWs, or DaVinci.

Quote:
They must have a pretty big budget! Or maybe they hired someone who has all the expertise and equipment for that particular livestream.
I think the pandemic forced a lot of groups to invest in streaming, so it wouldn't be surprising if they're doing it in-house now. If you've got video down streaming isn't that much of a knowledge jump, it's more equipment based.

Quote:
You mean an input box to mix the audio and the cameras together? So if all the instruments are going direct into a digital mixer, you'd take the L and R master outputs of the mixer, plus the outputs of each camera into some kind of input box, which is then plugged into the laptop? I could be totally wrong here. When you say 'some kind of input box', do you mean something like the ATEM mini/Pro etc?
That's right. Atem mini pros are a great value option for this.

Quote:
So HDMI or SDI?
Yep. One thing to consider in addition to cost is that SDI is preferred in production settings because you can use cables with locking BMC connectors (vs. many "consumer" cameras which have mini-HDMI connectors that fall out if you look at them funny), but you can usually lock or tape down HDMI connectors decently enough.

Quote:
Definitely one for the future! We're not ready yet but I want to have all the knowledge and equipment for when we are.
I might go as cheap as you can for this round then. Don't buy much, just get the best results you can with the phones you have, learn your way around DaVinci, start to understand what things like "white balance" mean, etc. Then when you're ready to invest in equipment there'll be more mature and more affordable technology.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #36
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Most start off recording their video on their cameras and recording their audio tracks to be downloaded into Resolve or some other video editing program that they like and then sync'd up there for editing.

A clap puts a spike on the audio track on each camera and on your mixer audio track. That gives you a visual spike on the audio tracks that you can use to line things up in video editing.

The spending issue you're going to run into is when you start looking for a second or third camera. This is where your request for something "inexpensive" will start to run into the problem that cameras and lenses cost money.

But....start with what you have and see how you get along with Resolve on your computer first. For that, I suggest you look on youtube for some tutorials to help you learn the software.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by quarantinebeats ➡️
Yes. You'll need a video mixer too if you're using multiple cameras, and then send that stream out.

That's right. Atem mini pros are a great value option for this.
I was looking at the inputs on the Atem mini/pros and I'm wondering how you'd connect the audio into them from a digital mixer (for doing a livestream). They only seem to have 'Mic 1' and 'Mic 2' audio inputs, which are mini jacks (3.5mm). Wouldn't it be better if there were proper left and right line inputs, and with either standard jack (1/4) size or XLR?

Old 3 weeks ago
  #38
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JayTee4303's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nksoloproject ➡️
I want to look into recording some future live gigs that my band does, and I'd like to record them with multiple cameras so we an switch between shots, different angles etc.

We use a Zoom Livetrack L-12 mixer which can record 12 separate tracks of separate audio simultaneously, either to to an SD card or DAW.

I was wondering what would be an easy and inexpensive way to do this?

Presumably we'd just need 4 or 5 cameras set up on different parts of the stage/venue for filming different angles, then we can use video editing software, sync all the video tracks together, mute their audio, then sync them with the audio from the Zoom Livetrack? Then we can chop and change between different camera angles for the final version of the video.

I have a Zoom Q4N Handy Video recorder, though I dislike the fact that it's fisheye but it still records good quality video in very high resolution.

What would be an inexpensive way to record the other video angles? How about 4 really high definition webcams connected to a laptop? Or use smartphones with very high definition video recording capabilities (I say 'inexpensive' because most of us in the band already have these, so no extra cost to buy more)?

How would we make sure the lighting is good enough to get good quality video? And how much space in (in gigabytes) would it take to record a full show (let's say 2 - 3 hours long)? What about tripods etc, and how to position the cameras without them being too noticeable in the video?

Am I think along the right lines here in terms of how to do this, or do you have any other ideas for me? Thanks.
I have roughly a decade in, fumbling about to find... then answer, precisely the questions you are asking here. That's impressive, you have somehow managed to key in on exactly what you need to know, bypassing trial and error.

Problem is... it might take years just to type out answers to the questions... so.. Ima hit some high points, then, you can hire me to do your vids, or to consult via Zoom, or work thru it, cuz I gotta eat, too.

Number 1... laptops are fragile, computationally underpowered, and subject to thermal problems, compared to desktops or server class computers.

My I7 desktop does me right for 1080, but struggles with 4k. You might well kill your laptop on this.

Two... YOU need end to end control over YOUR audio. Splitters, or tap signals at the headamp on the X/M-32 series noards. USB is one way, X-Live card another. FOH has to work the rig and the room, NEITHER of which will help or affect audio for video, but which WILL give you probs.

I get... usable... results... with a two track thumb drive in a 32, or a Zoom H4n, with a fair bit of processing in post, more with the Zoom, and some sacrifices in audio.

Three... start by answering these questions:

1. Who will see these videos, on what systems, via what delivery pipeline? When?

2. What do you want them to feel while they watch?

3. What do you want them to DO after they watch?

This is your whole roadmap, right here. The answer to every question along the way leads back to one of these three questions.

Four, lighting. Two lightshows. Mostly white downstage. Whatever accomodates the 3 questions above, upstage.

Colored lights look terrible on flesh, and mess with auto focus, and mess with auto balance.

Research the following: color temperature, Rembrandt facial lighting (males), butterfly facial lighting (females), benefits of shooting RAW footage. Get the front lights set for your cams, at RAW levels, then leave em, cept for special effects.

Finesse the backline lightshow to where it looks good behind the band, after the mandatory setup described above.

Five, start em and let em run. Less clips equals less sync hassle. Explore external batteries, and big data cards.

Six, tripod w a wide angle, downstage ctr. Your go-to, full band clip. 4k here gives you zoom options. Downstage left and DSR... can... get you home on closeups... IF you place them right. Line of sight. Check these out:

https://www.amazon.com/Suptig-Goosen...&ts_id=3347851

Seven, coupla more cams upstage for the back line guys, especially if your frontliners turn out to be camera hogs. These will ideally capture some of your rabid fans, too, which brings us to...

Eight, you need a fulltime cam-op to fly a gimbal around the room. This is where the audience, interacting with the band lives, which is where success lives or dies.

It ain't about the band. It's about the party... that the band is driving.

Look me up if you need more. I'll hook you up efficiently, with as much more as you can absorb.

One cam, one handheld two track, set n forget while I ran lights... obvious limitations:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aMRmyap3_gg

Two cams, 2 track FOH board thumbdrive audio capture:

https://rumble.com/vjzapb-whitestown...ove-smash.html

Multi-cam, multitrack audio capture, mixed in post:

https://rumble.com/vhwpub-tf-draft-0...s-1-3-ewf.html
Old 3 weeks ago
  #39
Thanks all for the awesome replies. I was also wondering, how would you do remote band practices or jam with other musicians over video, for example like this video that Brian May of Queen did with a UK based tribute band called 'The Classic Rock Show'?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvIo6onJf54

You see a lot of these types of videos these days. I know it's not done over Zoom or Skype, it's some special kind of software but how would it be done?
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #40
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nksoloproject ➡️
I was looking at the inputs on the Atem mini/pros and I'm wondering how you'd connect the audio into them from a digital mixer (for doing a livestream). They only seem to have 'Mic 1' and 'Mic 2' audio inputs, which are mini jacks (3.5mm). Wouldn't it be better if there were proper left and right line inputs, and with either standard jack (1/4) size or XLR?

The ATEMs are built down to a price. The 2 mini-plug "mic" inputs are unbalanced stereo, and can be configured with the ATEM Software Control app to be for mic level with plug-in-power, mic level without PiP, or line level, all with some trim control. The setting appears to stick after power down, so you really need the app anyway just to see how the inputs are configured every time. I set them to line level, and use an external transformer balanced to unbalanced box like a Radial twin-iso.

I didn't see a way to input a digital audio stream directly except on one of the HDMI inputs. The documentation on the audio is poor.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #41
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JCBigler's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nksoloproject ➡️
I was looking at the inputs on the Atem mini/pros and I'm wondering how you'd connect the audio into them from a digital mixer (for doing a livestream). They only seem to have 'Mic 1' and 'Mic 2' audio inputs, which are mini jacks (3.5mm). Wouldn't it be better if there were proper left and right line inputs, and with either standard jack (1/4) size or XLR?

You need one (or two) of this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B089Q24XYJ/

Or one (or two) of these:

https://www.amazon.com/COLICOLY-Fema...dp/B082Y86ZM6/

The inputs on the ATEM are stereo, so really they are 4 channels, or they can be configured as dual mono.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #42
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I suspect the one word in the OP that wrecks this whole affair is "inexpensive."
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #43
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JCBigler's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks ➡️
I suspect the one word in the OP that wrecks this whole affair is "inexpensive."
The ATEM Mini Pro ISO, is about as inexpensive as it gets for multi camera recording. Just add a 1TB SSD and you're good to go.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #44
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I was thinking more about the combined cost of 3 or4 camera bodies, lenses, tripods, memory cards, and a current desktop with a graphics card to handle the video processing.
Old 4 days ago
  #45
Hi, thanks for all the excellent and helpful replies to this thread! I just wanted to ask another question - what is the best way to record some of the crowd sound at a live gig? I mean, if all the band are going direct into the mixer and we're recording each track that way, isn't it a good idea to record a bit of crowd 'noise' to pick up the atmosphere of a live gig? But how can we add this crowd sound into the videos without messing up the mix of the instruments? I suppose it could be added in between each song only? All tips and suggestions appreciated!
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #46
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JayTee4303's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nksoloproject ➡️
Hi, thanks for all the excellent and helpful replies to this thread! I just wanted to ask another question - what is the best way to record some of the crowd sound at a live gig? I mean, if all the band are going direct into the mixer and we're recording each track that way, isn't it a good idea to record a bit of crowd 'noise' to pick up the atmosphere of a live gig? But how can we add this crowd sound into the videos without messing up the mix of the instruments? I suppose it could be added in between each song only? All tips and suggestions appreciated!
If you record multitrack audio, you can simply point a mic at the crowd, and patch it into an unused channel of the FOH mixer.

If your cameras record audio, you can bring that up between sings to hear the crowd.

If you back up your multitrack audio captures with a handheld two track recorder, like a Tascam D-05 ($100) or a Zoom H4N, ($300), you can often bypass the whole mixdown process for quick turnaround vids, and... you get audience as well.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #47
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayTee4303 ➡️
If you record multitrack audio, you can simply point a mic at the crowd, and patch it into an unused channel of the FOH mixer.

If your cameras record audio, you can bring that up between sings to hear the crowd.

If you back up your multitrack audio captures with a handheld two track recorder, like a Tascam D-05 ($100) or a Zoom H4N, ($300), you can often bypass the whole mixdown process for quick turnaround vids, and... you get audience as well.
Ok, so if we have a mic pointed at the crowd, or use the audio from the camera mic, will it be ok to blend this in with the audio recorded direct to the desk, or will this create some weird 'doubling' sort of effect? I'm a little unsure how to do this.

I mean, I've watched a lot of videos of professionally recorded live shows and it seems like 1) when the singer is talking between songs, it sounds like the audio is coming off the desk but you an also hear the crowd, and 2) same when the band is playing a song, you can still hear crowd sound in the background at times and there's a natural big reverb on the vocals which make them sound like they're in a big arena etc.

One such example is this live video from Def Leppard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuQbWlaqRvE
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #48
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🎧 10 years
I know this is an audio list serve... but... One thing I see lacking in all the previous advice to those of us flying "solo" on occasional/regular video gigs... (perhaps it goes without saying)... Try to MATCH all of your cameras to each other, whether Sony/Panasonic/Canon/ camcorders and/or DSLRs and/or phones. By "match"... at least by brand, at best by brand and model ("all Sony HVR-Z5 camcorders" or "all Canon EOS 5D Mark IV" DSLR, for instance). Every sensor design has a different look and feel. My Nikon DSLR footage looks different from the Z5 camcorder, both feeding ATOMOS recorders, even after color balance. Sure, you can invest hours in trying to conform three or four Sony/Nikon/Panasonic/Canon DSLRs with a couple of "controllable" Sony/Panasonic minicams... but why would you want to do that?

"Pro" location video rig crews usually include an engineer ("shader") who spends all his/her time remotely adjusting and balancing cameras for exposure (ISO, shutter speed and aperture), white balance (with color balance tweaks when different lighting is encountered), and contrast. Most of us don't have the gear or the crew to begin to conform these parameters for the original capture. Trying to rebalance basic capture parameters as well as correcting "in situ" problems in level, color balance, contrast and "look" for disparate cameras in post seems to me unnecessary... unless you have way too much time on your hands, or a bottomless hourly cashflow source.

It's been a few years since I did a rigorous video edit... but have things changed enough to allow disparate images to cohabit within a production? Has onboard AWB gotten to the point that brands/sensor types all provide consistent renderings of the same scene? All I know is that my three "brother" Sony Z1/Z5 1080 camcorders, properly set up and balanced, were pretty much nuts-on to each other. Introducing a Nikon D800 DSLR or Canon XA11 was always... interesting... and rare.

What am I missing here? ... and... Thanks.

Last edited by hbphotoav; 2 days ago at 05:13 PM..
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #49
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Even within Nikon, I see differences between the D610, D810, D500 and Z6. More so when I look at images between Nikon, Canon, Olympus and Panasonic.

Can't remember the details, but at least one of the mini pros allows you to remotely adjust certain Black Magic cameras for exposure and WB to match in the original capture so at least they are all on the same settings to begin with. But there's no ATEM remote control for other brands that I know of so one would still have to individually adjust each camera to match.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #50
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inexpensive multicam shots?! not sure whether to laugh or cry...

use your cell phones, dash cams or buy used pro gear, a hefty pc and work for free - the latter being the single most important factor when it comes to keeping costs low, pissing of qualified folks or building a reputation as a serious artist!
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #51
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JayTee4303's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nksoloproject ➡️
Ok, so if we have a mic pointed at the crowd, or use the audio from the camera mic, will it be ok to blend this in with the audio recorded direct to the desk, or will this create some weird 'doubling' sort of effect? I'm a little unsure how to do this.

I mean, I've watched a lot of videos of professionally recorded live shows and it seems like 1) when the singer is talking between songs, it sounds like the audio is coming off the desk but you an also hear the crowd, and 2) same when the band is playing a song, you can still hear crowd sound in the background at times and there's a natural big reverb on the vocals which make them sound like they're in a big arena etc.

One such example is this live video from Def Leppard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuQbWlaqRvE
Yes, mixing in camera audio creates a (subtle) "weird doubling effect" but I seem to be the only one in my circles that hears it. Several respected engineers and musicians say "it sounds great!"

I tend to bring it in only when necessary, usually between songs, perhaps as a song ends, and I spend a fair bit of time EQing it, to get rid of as much "flange" as possible, then console myself by focusing on the fact that nobody else seems to notice.

One thing you'll probably want to wrap your head around pretty quick... along the road to "quick, easy, multitrack, multicam video"... is experimentation.

Asking involves words, and a lot of times words fall short. If you hadn't used the term "weird doubling effect", I wouldn't have known you've already heard it, and would have been hesitant to discuss it for fear of over or understating a subtle effect.

In audio, you can blow things up experimenting willy nilly, but at the same time, I see Chris Lord Alge grab a knob and twist it stop to stop, just to see where the limits are and what happens there. Understanding gain staging allows this.

In video, I'm not imnediately aware of any major risks like that. In trying to approximate results that production companies spend 5 to 7 or 8 figures to achieve, you'll need to cut corners and get creative.

Have at it!

:-)
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #52
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🎧 10 years
Today a new I-Phone or I-Pad will do a credible visual capture of an event with out an enormous investment in money or learning curve. However the audio detail band videos require establishes a totally different protocol need. Above all else we must remember the visual images we capture are an embellishment to the primary requirement to professionally deliver a recording of the band's musical performance. This is where most all quick, cheap and easy video methods fail. One of the primary reasons audio quality is way behind visual quality in single device capture of music video is the piss poor audio capture quality of most video recording devices.

The hard cold reality is the investment in time and money required to acquire the appropriate audio gear and requisite expertise to use it is far greater than setting up cameras. My two GH5s and ninja V recorders required less than 5K investment while the 5 tube mics and DX32 module loaded with 8 "prime pre amps and op amps", that are the front end capture for my audio recording system, required apx. $15,000. Lou Judson's comment pursuant to stage lighting and framing the shot is exactly right: my two GH5's with their Atomos ninja V recorders never have a problem with light on a concert stage and are very easy to frame and focus. Also the ability to matchup the remote audio feed with the visual capture is a very handy feature of the Atomos V.

I set up one fixed camera framed to capture the entire seated band while the second camera is manned for close up shots for the leads.
I deliver to both camera recorders a direct 24/48 pro std adjusted audio feed, one stereo and one mono, and also do a redundant multi-track recording for a post producing a two mix that can be synced over the original audio tracks. The most interesting discovery I have experienced is with top end session ready bands the original live tracks are hard to beat even after I spend a lot of time two mixing the multi track. This discovery occurred after replaced my A&H QU live rig with a SQ5 featuring A&H's 24/96K FPGA processing. The detail and transparency from my front end capture gear really came up to it's potential with this very advanced digital processing.
Hugh
Old 2 days ago
  #53
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JayTee4303's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
A general response to several recent posts...

Till recently, I was using 5 Sony Handicams. One old SD unit, a top of the line (budget variant) HD unit, and 3 identical, later, cheaper HD units.

The SD and one of the lesser HDs died and I picked up a GoPro8. It's not too far off. Usually.

GoPro front and center, in close. Wide angle 4k offers a lot of zoom/pan/crop options in post. SR and SL, pick your angles carefully. Aim for FACES, generally visible when musos take normal positions. I have about 2k in the cams. Another 1k in tripods, mounts, clamps, etc. Another $1k in backup batteries, external batteries, cables, chargers, and data cards. That's it. My Nikon DSLRs don't do HD video. I ... may... find a Sony solution that allows me to use Nikkor primes, and I ... may.. upgrade Nikon bodies...but not today.

The best clips come from my best cam, the $500 Sony HD, on a Ronin SC gimbal. Work the show. Fly thru the energy zones, without disrupting them. IMO... great videos don't just portray what the band looks and sounds like... that is secondary to what it FEELS like at the gig. Get into the pile where the energy is greatest.

Grading different datasets was/is easy to get... close. Except when it isn't. Light guy moves one light, which alters WB and exposure on one cam, I have other things to do during shows and don't realize till later in post.

Audio... my best results happen when I capture all board inputs and mix/master in post. X/M-32 USB card achieves that, with a laptop. Several caveats include precise drivers and high speed, low drag software.

XLive card captures to SD card. Several different caveats there.

Backing up the multitrack capture with a two track has saved my bacon more than once. Many ways. Board mix on a thumbdrive is best so far. Close second is a carefully placed H4N. Distant third is a Tascam D-05.

I just bought an ADAT expansion card for my 32. There's software that will allow me to record every move on the board, live, then edit, even overdub that control data in post. We'll see how that works out.

And yes, things go wrong with audio too. Every show. Dropouts. Missed notes. Glitches in the chain.

Well, here's my response... so what? A zillion things can go wrong with a set and forget multicam, multitrack rig. Several of those things ALWAYS do go wrong. Not the same ones every show. Capture is about maxing the take. Get as much as possible, as long as possible, then learn from mistakes. Then get to work in post. Use what you have.

Put your show reel out, charge what the market bears, make changes if you aren't happy where you land.

Like audio... video isn't an objective. It is a process. Try, screw up, improve, learn, think, acquire, rinse, repeat.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #54
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Rather than let my camera auto white balance change itself all over the place that can result in having to deal with a lot of changes in WB in edit, I set a fixed K white point for capture.

And I'm not advocating older DSLRs for shooting video. Just merely saying that even within the same brand, I see differences among models. So hughshouse's approach of using two identical GH5s makes perfect sense to keep things looking the same and avoiding unnecessary work in edit. Would go further and say he's obviously given his work flow a good deal of thought and carefully selected his equipment to accomplish what he wants in his situation.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #55
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🎧 10 years
Is there a serious flaw in the ‘mic inputs’ of the small Atem ? Was feeding it yesterday with the a Zoom H5 line output and it severely overloaded. I get that it’s labelled a mic input, not line…so not an unexpected result….but , where are the line inputs on this thing ? We had to feed in via the 1/8” input on one of the cameras, which fixed the problem but not an ideal solution?
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #56
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
There is a setting in the ATEM control software to change from mic to line.

https://www.controlbooth.com/threads...1/#post-414361
Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #57
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JayTee4303's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks ➡️
Rather than let my camera auto white balance change itself all over the place that can result in having to deal with a lot of changes in WB in edit, I set a fixed K white point for capture.

And I'm not advocating older DSLRs for shooting video. Just merely saying that even within the same brand, I see differences among models. So hughshouse's approach of using two identical GH5s makes perfect sense to keep things looking the same and avoiding unnecessary work in edit. Would go further and say he's obviously given his work flow a good deal of thought and carefully selected his equipment to accomplish what he wants in his situation.
I agree with all of this. If one of my Sony's hadn't gotten wet, I'd be using 3 identical plus 1 very close.

Manual white balance is useful, if you can get it right to begin with, before the show starts, with a variety of the lighting scenes to be used during the show.

Auto focus is often confused by red light.

Auto exposure gets grainy under low light, and isn't instantaneous. It, like auto anything, can lock during a brief lights out, or red wash, periods and sit there long seconds or minutes before it's tiny little brain corrects the situation.

Tiny viewing monitors, and coarse, "pick one of four settings" menus don't help.

A guy on Youtube showed me the value of choosing settings as near as "RAW" as possible, to expand your options in post.

In other words, I've learned the hard way that there are plusses and minuses to every approach I've tried so far.

For me, that's where the multicam setup saves the day. With an HD Sony at medium focal length stage right and left, covering maybe two guys plus the drummer, there's four or five crops available, full time.

The close in, center GoPro gives me 4 or 5 more, at 4K, before grain from digital zoom in post takes over.

With the 'crowd heavy' take from the gimbal mounted Sony, I tend to follow the action, and picking up stills when not flying the gimbal, that many options means I can always find... something... to use when technical limitations rule out the angle I'd really prefer at that time.

Blown cuts... where something is totally wrong... can lead to happy surprises. Well, boss, your blown out purple hair is... an artistic effect.... a FEATURE, you know??

Except instead of complaining they LOVE it!

Whew! (Every other angle is worse... or corrupted.)

I'd really love to eliminate every downside, and sit down to edit with five perfect angles, start to finish, but I'm not even close to that nirvana.

I started w 16GB SD cards in the Sonys, but those often fill before a set break happens. I upped to 32s, which fill up before set two ends. I'm now using 64s, which are not supported by these camera firmware, but I get 5.5 hours out if them, and none have failed yet.

On the battery side, I've got banks of spares, but the changeovers are neither fully predictable, nor able to be scheduled at set breaks.

I now have two 5 to 10 Ah phone chargers for each cam and recorder, that the devices see as a wall socket. They finish shows with the internal battery still full.

The GoPro gives me about an hour and 15 minutes on one battery, even while plugged into one of these big external batteries. It doesn't "charge" as fast as shooting draws it down.

Of course the Sonys take USB micros, and the GoPro takes USB-C and my eyes require 3.0 diopter reading glasses to tell which cable is which.

A 256GB card in the GoPro gives me about 2.5 hours of data.

EVERY stop and start means one more file that has to be synced in post. What time tomorrow is the band expecting that finished video, hmm?

On the audio side, the X/M-32 series boards, with an X-Live SD recorder in the expansion slot, using the max recommended 32 GB cards, gives me 32 tracks of 24/48 for about 2.5 hours IF the auto-fail-over routine works. 5 hours if the band uses 16 or fewer inputs. Often the second card creates a "zero-byte" file, which can be recovered... with more hassle in post. 64s are said to work, tho not supported, but I haven't tried them yet. They're all in the Sonys anyway.

ALL of them are FAT-32, which means a bunch of 4GB partial files which have to be manually aligned in the DAW, AFTER exploding the Multi Track Wave format into individual wave files.

The X-Live card requires 3.8 firmware or newer in the board, or the board can't see the card. If you think a band's engineer might be hesitant to let you swap out cards in "his" console before a show, even when the board's owner orders just that... you're right, but that doesn't BEGIN to describe his angst when he sits down to brand new firmware in the console, at... or slightly after scheduled sound check start. Sound check delayed because nobody's I-Phone can find the Q-Mix app, since the firmware boost reset the boards' IP. Huh, subnet, what's that?

The GoPro captures are 4GB partial files as well, but Vegas makes it pretty easy to butt them back together in post, and then move them around as a unit for sync.

All of this just to GET...most, not all... of the show captured, before you ever even see white balance or exposure on camera one, let alone matching 5 cams.

Then there's the ingest. Do you actually HAVE all the data cards you think you have? Where might the one, errant, micro SD booger be? Have THOSE stage black pants been laundered since the show? Are the host devices re-charged enough to upload? Are you sure this device was SL, not SR, because once you upload AVCHD files, moving them or changing folder names risks access to them. They store as multiple files, data, headers, descriptors, containers, related by absolute, not relative file allocation tables. Playback doesn't allow "look in the sub-folder for your arms and legs", no it says "look there, right there and only there, or die."

And just where is all this data going? Is the target drive fast enough to feed editing software 4 streams of HD, plus one 4K, plus stereo 24/48 audio?

Is it big enough to hold a whole show? A typical 3 hour set runs nearly half a terabyte for me. Is it big enough to hold all the edits... and project files... and stills... and revisions... plus however many masters you end up rendering before the client pays up?

How long does it take to mix a three hour, 32 track audio file? Do vox need tuned? Did guitarist beers force cut-n-paste editing? How many times do you need to master audio, for distro to platforms with different optimum specs?

And once that audio is mastered, rendered, imported and synced to that huge pile of 4GB video snippets, what happens when the video edit, forced by one or more glitche, fairly screams for 3dB more high hat from 27:46 to 28:03?

Back down to the dynamic mix file, bump the hat, re-master, re-render, re-sync? Or screw it?

Here... I bring it to a static mix on an I-7 4790, with video synced to the 2-track backup audio on an identical I-7 4790, lock the two PCs up using SMPTE, then buss mix thru a prospective mastering chain into the rough video edit, back and forth until I'm comfortable enough to marry them up and fine tune it all in Vegas.

Saving each major revision as seperate projects along the way, because most client simply can't wrap heads around "no, because that would require an audio re-mix and re-master."

It's not just a job, it's an adventure.

And... going forward... I think it's becoming... mandatory.

A brave new world.

I love it. I enjoy the finished projects more than the live show.

Last edited by JayTee4303; 1 day ago at 04:15 PM..
Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #58
Quote:
Originally Posted by nksoloproject ➡️

I assume the unit pictured above is from a company with the name Blackmagic Design, how are their cameras? I assume this is still low budget stuff compared to what TV stations use, or?
Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #59
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks ➡️
There is a setting in the ATEM control software to change from mic to line.

https://www.controlbooth.com/threads...1/#post-414361
Thank you....that switch, as well as keeping the levels out of the yellow zone (later post in the thread) are probably the best approaches thus far to overcome the problem
Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #60
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orgeltonmeister ➡️
I assume the unit pictured above is from a company with the name Blackmagic Design, how are their cameras? I assume this is still low budget stuff compared to what TV stations use, or?
If you do some reading around, you'll find that BlackMagic cameras (and associated accessories) are fast becoming...or already are.... the "new Nagra" of the video capture landscape, and irrespective of what's paid are hardly 'low budget' in terms of the quality they deliver . Check out some Curtis Judd YouTube reviews...
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