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Decline of the CD and the effects on location recording
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #61
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson ➡️
Oh come on! Video doubles down on what you're doing already-- capturing amazing artists and preserving their performances for all time. Eventually you come to the realization: it's only natural for an audience to wonder what they did they look like? as they were conducting their other-worldly excursions into the realm of creative expression.

You've sound checked, you've set up the audio gear, you hit record before anyone starts. Absent some kind of crisis, does it need your constant attention? Sure, I always sat there and watched meters bounce... but I don't need to, I could be as easily watching the show through a lens...

And video cameras just about do it all themselves these days, you have the option of adjusting the exposure and focus and whatnot or if you don't want to it will just happen automatically. A couple of cameras on tripods with different views, and use your own for close-ups. The rhythm of the performance will suggest how to edit it, generally going back and forth between the shots, slow zooms in for tension... there's a majesty to the language of video production, not to mention the god-like power of telling the story.

Seems like... a no-brainer to my brain.
True enough - except when operatic soloists are involved, delicate manual gain riding that demands careful listening attention is almost always called for. Not for clipping but for pleasant home listening. Can't stand using limiters on classical voices. I try to record direct to 2-track as often as I can. Standard orchestral work one can usually set and forget. I'd still be nervous walking away from my audio setup to give all my attention to shooting video, especially since the best position for the two are usually in very different places.

As an ex cinematographer/videographer, I could never rely on auto focus or exposure; especially with the high-contrast lighting found with most live music events. I've yet to experience a vid cam whose auto-focus isn't frequently fooled into focusing on the background.

I've tried doing both myself a couple of times; it was very stressful, and one or the other always suffers.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #62
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tourtelot's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️

I've tried doing both myself a couple of times; it was very stressful, and one or the other always suffers.
This!

And why would you want to take paid work away from another technician? I have never felt too friendly to those cameramen who have said "I do sound too. What is the best . . . ."

D.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #63
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot ➡️
I have never felt too friendly to those cameramen who have said "I do sound too. What is the best . . . ."
...or a lampie asking: "would you have a spare mic stand?" and before you knew it, at least six were already turned into lamp tripods and the question was about an additional stand!

anyway, serious question: why are camera men still getting paid better and have to work less than audio or light techs?!
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #64
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
anyway, serious question: why are camera men still getting paid better and have to work less than audio or light techs?!
Simply because any talented videographer is much more than a 'tech'.

But then I'm admittedly biased.

I worked for several years as a gaffer ('light tech') before becoming a Director of Photgraphy, and I can tell you there is a world of difference in knowledge, experience, and yes, talent between being a 'light tech' and a cinematographer, or DP.
Old 4 days ago
  #65
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
My anecdotal experience, as someone who only *ever* did audio for regional groups - as soon as I started offering video, they never talked about audio any more.

The only question was, How much for 'videography'? 'The video'. The sound is taken for granted.

I'm beginning to think a quality recording itself is just my job insurance.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #66
Gear Addict
 
And perhaps most sadly, most will only see (and tragically, hear) these videos on smartphones.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #67
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Yeah. Though I'm sanguine enough to think that a great recording in a good video is like a gem in a setting, it will still be appreciated at some level, all things being equal. They aren't equal, but to a great degree our average listener streams audio and video off the same device


Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
And perhaps most sadly, most will only see (and tragically, hear) these videos on smartphones.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #68
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tourtelot's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
So I workied in the (Hollywood) motion picture business for about 30 years, and worked with some top-flight Cinematographers, whose deft skill awed me. But I always wondered about the A-camera loader making more per hour than the PSM. Simple. Their union was stronger than mine was. Case closed.

But we aren't really talking about ASC, Oscar-winning DPs here, are we? The last two "DPs" I worked with filled the room with white LED lights and wondered why their do-everything cameras couldn't white balance. I spent some of my day pointing out shadows from house lights that should have never been turned on in the first place. A bit of a raw deal to be getting paid less per hour for me. Oh, well. It's a new world isn't it?

D.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #69
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
Simply because any talented videographer is much more than a 'tech'.

But then I'm admittedly biased.

I worked for several years as a gaffer ('light tech') before becoming a Director of Photgraphy, and I can tell you there is a world of difference in knowledge, experience, and yes, talent between being a 'light tech' and a cinematographer, or DP.
i'm referring to 'technicians' (for everyone working in our business) since hardly any of us can call ourselves 'engineers' in the sense (and with the knowledge and experience) of tom dowd!

(and while we're on the subject: i find the german term 'tonmeister' equally ridiculous)

however, as far as actual ability is concerned, i would dispute that someone who is inclined towards optical things is supposed to be worlds cleverer than someone who is inclined towards acoustic things...

...so no, i'm not getting why the person standing behind a camera, wearing headphones, following the instructions of the video producer at a large live (audio) production (aka concert or 'show') makes more money than a 'stage hand', 'roadie', 'sound technician' (or 'sound engineer').

[over here, it isn't due to different trade unions - not that it is politically controversial here, but very few of the 'modern professions' are even unionised, but are on an equal footing in terms of labour law.]

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 4 days ago at 09:12 AM..
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #70
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
i'm referring to 'technicians' (for everyone working in our business) since hardly any of us can call ourselves 'engineers' in the sense (and with the knowledge and experience) of tom dowd!

(and while we're on the subject: i find the german term 'tonmeister' equally ridiculous)

however, as far as actual ability is concerned, i would dispute that someone who is inclined towards optical things is supposed to be worlds cleverer than someone who is inclined towards acoustic things...

...so no, i'm not getting why the person standing behind a camera, wearing headphones, following the instructions of the video producer at a large live (audio) production (aka concert or 'show') makes more money than a 'stage hand', 'roadie', 'sound technician' (or 'sound engineer').

[over here, it isn't due to different trade unions - not that it is politically controversial here, but very few of the 'modern professions' are even unionised, but are on an equal footing in terms of labour law.]
Funny story...

This is from years past. A good friend in my High School printed up a bunch of business cards that said John Smith (not his real name) Audio Engineer and gave them out to friends. One of the cards wound up being given to a member of the National Society of Professional Engineers who strenuously objected to this person calling himself an "engineer" and told him to destroy all the cards and get back any he had given out and destroy them as well. My friend did not want to do that and so then the person who objected decided to sue my friend for "posing as something he was not". It went to trial and the Judge said it was "in the best public interest to NOT call yourself an Engineer unless you had the credentials to prove it" and did not access a fine or judgement in the case. I just wonder what would happen today if the same scenario presented itself. I have a college degree and I am a lifetime voting member of the AES so I can legally call myself an "audio engineer". Some kid down the block with a cheap interface and some pirated software can also call himself a self proclaimed "audio engineer" so I guess things are still up in the air...
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #71
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe ➡️
Funny story...

This is from years past. A good friend in my High School printed up a bunch of business cards that said John Smith (not his real name) Audio Engineer and gave them out to friends. One of the cards wound up being given to a member of the National Society of Professional Engineers who strenuously objected to this person calling himself an "engineer" and told him to destroy all the cards and get back any he had given out and destroy them as well. My friend did not want to do that and so then the person who objected decided to sue my friend for "posing as something he was not". It went to trial and the Judge said it was "in the best public interest to NOT call yourself an Engineer unless you had the credentials to prove it" and did not access a fine or judgement in the case. I just wonder what would happen today if the same scenario presented itself. I have a college degree and I am a lifetime voting member of the AES so I can legally call myself an "audio engineer". Some kid down the block with a cheap interface and some pirated software can also call himself a self proclaimed "audio engineer" so I guess things are still up in the air...
wow...

the legal situation here is quite clear*: there are protected professional titles which require specific training (and in some cases years of experience) to bear and unprotected titles which can be used by anyone.

btw: over here, the term 'studying' is only used for people who are being taught at a university (and which are state-run, not private institutions)!


*well... - anyone can call him/herself a 'sound engineer' or 'architekt' etc. but you need a degree for 'tonmeister' or 'structural engineer' - no condition for 'therapist' working with music but 'music therapist' requires specific, quasi-university training...

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 4 days ago at 01:18 PM..
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #72
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
True enough - except when operatic soloists are involved, delicate manual gain riding that demands careful listening attention is almost always called for. Not for clipping but for pleasant home listening. Can't stand using limiters on classical voices. I try to record direct to 2-track as often as I can. Standard orchestral work one can usually set and forget. I'd still be nervous walking away from my audio setup to give all my attention to shooting video, especially since the best position for the two are usually in very different places.

As an ex cinematographer/videographer, I could never rely on auto focus or exposure; especially with the high-contrast lighting found with most live music events. I've yet to experience a vid cam whose auto-focus isn't frequently fooled into focusing on the background.

I've tried doing both myself a couple of times; it was very stressful, and one or the other always suffers.
I get it, especially not wanting to do both video and audio at the same time, but wonder if we aren't getting to the point where subject tracking actually works say in the Canon R5?
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #73
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hbphotoav's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
It would be an interesting exercise to survey those listeners who still regularly use CD playback, and buy CD's from Amazon, concert hall foyer tables, etc: what is their main playback mechanism ?

If they drive an old vehicle its possible there is still an in-dash CD player/radio. If they retain a stereo hifi system there is perhaps a standalone component CD player. If they have a home theatre system, hooked up to the TV or LCD panel, then the DVD player will suffice. If they have an older computer then it may still have a CD burner or drive. If they have a tabletop radio, portable radio/CD player or older Bose Wave-radio then these will still have a CD slot.

If they are of the ilk who regularly buy new cars, new computers and new home entertainment systems...they'll have increasing trouble finding a disc-playing device.

It will eventually go the way of the audio cassette, but as far as currently available playback devices goes...we're still in the diminishing end of the 'transition phase' ?
I'm one of those "old" guys (with a nice, "vintage" '97 Cummins RAM 2500 pickup truck) and I mostly convert my "new" CDs to .mp4 for storage on my phone (about 4,000 titles as of now) and go either wired (Lightning dongle for audio and power) or BluTooth into the after-market Alpine in the dash (which also allows USB and AM/FM input) or just play CDs in the onboard player. Speakers are aftermarket hotrodded coax 3.5" boxes affixed to the dash corners, blended with the four door panel speakers in the OEM setup, and a punchy little 8" Alpine powered sub under the seat. It's gotten me nicely down the last 30,000 miles of roadwork.
Old 4 days ago
  #74
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David Rick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I am quite comfortable calling myself an "engineer". In my "day job", my title is "Principal Engineer, Advanced Technology Group". I hold an advanced degree in engineering, have served as a regional board member of the AES, and hold the grade of "Senior Member" in the IEEE. It is unlikely that I will ever be elected an "IEEE Fellow" because (for commercial reasons) I do not publish my research in refereed journals, but I am the sole or first-named inventor on about a dozen patents, with more pending.

The thing I may not do is advertise my services to the general public. To do that, I would need a certification as a "Registered Professional Engineer", which requires several years apprenticeship under another RPE and passing a day long exam. This certification is fairly common among Civil Engineers and it is a good thing because we do not want bridges and buildings to fall down. In constrast, few EE's working outside the power industry bother with such a certification because the body of knowledge tested is usually far removed from our actual specialties and the tech companies that typically hire us simply don't care. My main employer has perhaps a hundred degreed engineers on local staff, of which I believe only two or three hold PE certificates. One of them is someone I mentor and a PE stamp is a necessary qualification for her job because we offer her consulting services to customers.

Every few years I am contacted by an architect who wants acoustical advice. I make them sign a short statement that says they understand that I am not a Registered Professional Engineer and that any plans or drawings having public safety implications must be signed off by someone who is.

David L. Rick
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #75
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kludgeaudio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick ➡️
The thing I may not do is advertise my services to the general public. To do that, I would need a certification as a "Registered Professional Engineer", which requires several years apprenticeship under another RPE and passing a day long exam. This certification is fairly common among Civil Engineers and it is a good thing because we do not want bridges and buildings to fall down. In constrast, few EE's working outside the power industry bother with such a certification because the body of knowledge tested is usually far removed from our actual specialties and the tech companies that typically hire us simply don't care. My main employer has perhaps a hundred degreed engineers on local staff, of which I believe only two or three hold PE certificates. One of them is someone I mentor and a PE stamp is a necessary qualification for her job because we offer her consulting services to customers.
When I was in school, there was one PE exam for all engineers. So if you were an EE and wanted to call yourself an engineer, you had to pass a test all about steam tables, ruling gradients for railway tracks, and rates of grade allowed for different soil types. It was almost all civil and mechanical engineering stuff, so very few people other than civil engineers ever took the test.

Today there are actually different tests for different engineering disciplines and you can actually take an EE-centered PE test and get certified as an engineer without ever having to learn about expansion coefficients of concrete. So there is actually some benefit and reason to getting a PE as an EE these days. And it's something you can wave in someone's face if they say you're not a real engineer.
--scott
Old 3 days ago
  #76
Lives for gear
 
fred2bern's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Back to the subject.

In the classical music world, there is no decline of the CDs.

We created a label 3 years ago and produce only classical music. We win money, our artists also. Most of the productions are paid by sponsors, fundations, crowd funding, etc.
We give 50% of loyalties to our artists. Yes, I was a violinist before producing, so,I know how much is my work as an artist...

Now it's clear you have to know what to produce. Piano concertos and symphonic stuff are on the top. But you can also make money if you produce Cds for people who play in concerts and have an audience. (And yes, here in Switzerland, we have concerts!).

Streaming is nothing in the classical world, at least for us!

In Europe we sell around 2000/3000 Cds for each symphonic production. It's not a lot, but when everything is already paid...

As an example, we sell our symphonic CD productions Chf12 to our world distributor and Chf16 direct from our website. At the end, and for 2000, it gives around Chf 14000 for 50%...

Of course it's not Sony or DG, but it works, I'm booked until the end of 2023 for the moment.

PS: In fact, at the beginning we had videographers to produce trailers for our productions. We stopped, there is no impact of video trailers for our productions in terms of sales...
Old 3 days ago
  #77
Lives for gear
 
lunecha's Avatar
my city is Rap or Techno music...

but All rappers here release CD's nowadays even in 2021+ !

they make Platinum records & are #1 sales in Fr. !

i asked one well-know rapper on twitter if they count release LP vinyl but he said not actually, so maybe one day..

but for CD it's not a pb ! (nobody buy a USB album..)

(my autoradio is CD) :D
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #78
Lives for gear
 
Bruce Watson's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe ➡️
Funny story...

This is from years past. A good friend in my High School printed up a bunch of business cards that said John Smith (not his real name) Audio Engineer and gave them out to friends. One of the cards wound up being given to a member of the National Society of Professional Engineers who strenuously objected to this person calling himself an "engineer" and told him to destroy all the cards and get back any he had given out and destroy them as well. My friend did not want to do that and so then the person who objected decided to sue my friend for "posing as something he was not". It went to trial and the Judge said it was "in the best public interest to NOT call yourself an Engineer unless you had the credentials to prove it" and did not access a fine or judgement in the case. I just wonder what would happen today if the same scenario presented itself. I have a college degree and I am a lifetime voting member of the AES so I can legally call myself an "audio engineer". Some kid down the block with a cheap interface and some pirated software can also call himself a self proclaimed "audio engineer" so I guess things are still up in the air...
For better or worse, most if not all states in the United States have legal definitions for the term "engineer" just like they do for all sorts of other titles like "doctor" and "dentist" and "land surveyor", and of course all the variations of lawyer. One earns use of the title by having the required education, experience, and passing an exam. IOW, by earning a license from a registration authority or state board. Registration is typically yearly, typically requires a yearly payment, and typically requires some number of continuing education credits to "keep the (insert title here) current" in the state of the art. Most states have their own requirements, so one typically has to procure a license in every state one wants to practice in.

Anyway, this is almost certainly what your high school friend ran afoul of. Nice that he had an understanding judge.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #79
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by fred2bern ➡️
PS: In fact, at the beginning we had videographers to produce trailers for our productions. We stopped, there is no impact of video trailers for our productions in terms of sales...
Fred, great to hear of your activity and results. I am finding that video trailers can be a great inclusion in the grant applications. The funding committee seem to love a good YouTube link.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #80
Gear Addict
 
I love a good YouTube link - with plenty of mustard.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #81
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lunecha's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson ➡️
For better or worse, most if not all states in the United States have legal definitions for the term "engineer" just like they do for all sorts of other titles like "doctor" and "dentist" and "land surveyor", and of course all the variations of lawyer. One earns use of the title by having the required education, experience, and passing an exam. IOW, by earning a license from a registration authority or state board. Registration is typically yearly, typically requires a yearly payment, and typically requires some number of continuing education credits to "keep the (insert title here) current" in the state of the art. Most states have their own requirements, so one typically has to procure a license in every state one wants to practice in.

Anyway, this is almost certainly what your high school friend ran afoul of. Nice that he had an understanding judge.
USA, & CHINA mostly have this "a business to do" method in music industry : generally they FORMAT people to a style or a genre... BECOZE a TABOO or Political choice of WHO IS POLITICALLY CORRECT TO REPRESENT THE LAWS....

Paris'scene, France is also formatted too since this GOOD NOSTALGIC TOP-50 SHOW.. that was good, young... :


(now, trolls goto...)

THE VOICE tv show...
The New Star Show...
(computers, VSTs... xD ...)

.. nowadays they roll COWs & FARTs that stay in business for 6 months THEN U NEVER EAR TALK ABOUT THEM... (appart in "PEOPLE's NEWS CHannel / TV SHOWS : WHAT THEY BECAME".

+ Showbiz, drug, violations, not TV'ed.....

___

there a difference between being .. an Artist/a Real Musician, involved.. simply... liked/disliked.. THAN A PRODUCT...

(THEWEEKND is appart.. he Awesome lol.. but so RARE !)

(they force prods, just for business, politics interest.. mass control... low-braineds...)

=>

Tuff Gong studios produce..
Defected produce..

but u never hear them not at radio not at TV.. xD

...

maybe streaming bigs have success coz the variety of the tracks/unknow ones...

maybe it's time to discover...
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #82
Lives for gear
 
lunecha's Avatar
u want listen 3 drummers awesome -> u go in NY, queens.. (u put 5$...)

need dub reggae, jamaica..

rock ? britain / USA .. Argentina.................

deep ? eastern europa / moscow classes, st-petersbourg...

techno ? Berlin....

(it's "cliché" but not TV not FM...)

...



it's not TV show. it's the real music.

edit: u go in Morroco or Algeria, restaurants & YOUTUBE r the scenes...
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #83
Lives for gear
 
lunecha's Avatar
David Guetta is maybe the most know french dj... (the bests r Laurent Garnier, Bob Sinclar, Manu le malin, Cut-Killer, DJ KHEOPS, DJ Abdel...........)

but here in Fr he have THE ZERO STATUS, he is the most mocked "dj" !

("it's not him that make the tracks, he has some ghosts that produce for him under GUETTA . COM .. & when he mix it's PLAYBACK "hands-up times far the console"..)

PEOPLE ARE NOT STUPID LIKE INA 80 TV SHOW playback..

only SHEEPS are satisfied : i know ONLY ONE GUY here that likes radio/TV lol.. all 100 friendies others i know listen other stuffs / different..

PS: i'm not b*tchin'... i just say what everybody knows... nobody cares guetta or not guetta, celine dion.. xD
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #84
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
This place is not what it used to be
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #85
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Poulton ➡️
This place is not what it used to be
Could you elaborate??? Thanks!
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #86
Lives for gear
 
kludgeaudio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Poulton ➡️
This place is not what it used to be
I am not sure it ever was, honestly.
--scott
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #87
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king2070lplaya's Avatar
Read it in a French accent, it makes more sense.
Old 3 days ago
  #88
Lives for gear
 
David Rick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
There is a perfectly logical explanation: It is nearly Halloween and Gearspace is being haunted by the ghost of The Man. Paranormal troll specialists believe this annoying spirit appears every seven years for one month beginning on Sept 30, the anniversary of the cancellation of WebTV.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #89
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
And tonight the Mrs. will be back running a merch table @ our fave local "wood-music" venue, taking in cash for the grateful artists of the evening...selling....CDs!
Old 3 days ago
  #90
Gear Guru
Bad Company did a concert here at the Del Mar fairgrounds and everyone got a CD of the show walking out the gate afterwards. I was impressed by the speed of the delivery.

A cheap flash drive could be next, much faster to download than burning a CDR. Dump it when you get home and the drive is good for other stuff. Anyone doing this?
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