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Faulkner fig 8 phased array with ribbons on sax dodecatet - Gearspace.com
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Faulkner fig 8 phased array with ribbons on sax dodecatet
Old 4th October 2021
  #1
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Faulkner fig 8 phased array with ribbons on sax dodecatet

12 saxes in a semicircle (see pic) makes it a.... dodecatet ?
You bought it...you name it !

Pair of 9" (22cm) spaced parallel (no angle) sE ribbon Voodoo VR2 mics, on a small bar, as per Tony Faulkner's original phased array (his 8" spacing shrinks the stereo width field a little too much...10" would be even better methinks !)

It's a good test-example of the utility of this array, simply due to the equi-spacing of the players in a full semicircle, so you can judge how accurately the array renders their relative positions ?

It's really not very high...maybe a foot or two (0.5m) above the conductor's head. Mic stand is located around 4-5 feet (1.5m) behind conductor...again, breaking with the tradition/spirit of the Faulkner array, which suggests "significantly further back" is the ideal placement for this rig ? These active ribbons seem to play very nicely with brass instruments too...!

You can judge its efficacy from the attached audio sample below the pic...only the pair used, no spots, no added reverb, no comp etc The suspended AB omni pair above the conductor are not used in this scenario either.
Attached Thumbnails
Faulkner fig 8 phased array with ribbons on sax dodecatet-dodecatet-pic.jpg  
Attached Files

dodeca-whatever sax sample .mp3 (11.19 MB, 61 views)

Old 4th October 2021
  #2
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Beautiful !! What pre did you use with the ribbons?

The one time I tried the 'Faulkner 8s' (also with ribbons, on multi-percussion soloist) I also found the 8" spacing much too narrow - went with 10".

I always found TF's 8" spacing puzzling - plug it into any stereo calculator and a very narrow image results; especially at a greater-than-normal distance, as stated in the original article.
Old 5th October 2021
  #3
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JCBigler's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
12 saxes in a semicircle (see pic) makes it a.... dodecatet ?
You bought it...you name it !
I would just call that a saxophone choir.

Frankly, anything larger than a octet gets labeled as a choir.

ETA: It's a very nice recording of a very nice sounding ensemble. They did a great job on that piece and I think their blend and dynamics were top notch. Do you happen to know what the piece was?
Old 5th October 2021
  #4
Gear Head
Very nice recording! It’s remarkable what the fig-8 phased array can do with regards to cutting out the fluff of a large room like that. And it’s nice to see someone else using the VR2s—those seem to have flown under the radar, and I’m hoping to add a pair to my collection in the near future.
Old 5th October 2021
  #5
Gear Guru
 
joelpatterson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Just gorgeous! The "Studer58" array!

I bet that pipe organ sounds pretty sweet when they crank it up...?
Old 6th October 2021
  #6
Gear Nut
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
12 saxes in a semicircle (see pic) makes it a.... dodecatet ?
You bought it...you name it !.
Another great recording by studer58---your tapes are always some of the best I hear on GS. Very cool demo of a 'weird' array. Great stereo image. Even the audience clapping at the end sounds 3d ('bonus' property of fig 8's?)
Old 6th October 2021
  #7
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jnorman's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Very nice Ray!
Old 6th October 2021
  #8
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Excellent!

Question: Looking at the picture and where the mics are, it looks like the players at the ends of the semi-circle (the gentleman on the soprano on the left and the lady with the tenor (?) on the right) are close to the nulls of both figure 8's? Or is there more depth there than the picture suggests?

Regards, Christine
Old 6th October 2021 | Show parent
  #9
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by connloyalist ➡️
Excellent!

Question: Looking at the picture and where the mics are, it looks like the players at the ends of the semi-circle (the gentleman on the soprano on the left and the lady with the tenor (?) on the right) are close to the nulls of both figure 8's? Or is there more depth there than the picture suggests?

Regards, Christine
imo this illustrates the fact that in a room with lots of reflections and instruments/ensemble with a fairly wide dispersion, the pattern choice and the main mic's position - other than for setting the direct/reflected/ambient sound ratio - don't matter as much as some folks want us to believe!

[what one can hear a bit better though is whether a (near) coincident or (widely) spaced pair got used but once you add ambis to a direction/coincident pair, all bets are off again... - i personally favour the latter approach in almost all situations as it lets me selected the direct/diffuse ratio independently from each other (plus it's way easier to blur the stereo image than trying to get it more tight).]

another (and rather extreme) example are mics inside a grand piano: even with the lid on the long stick, there's so much sound bouncing around that it becomes very hard to tell (if it's possible at all) to tell from listening alone which spacing and pattern got used!
Old 6th October 2021
  #10
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Thanks for your kind words and appreciations…the pleasantness of the sound was a surprise to me too, esp given I was unable to place the stand any further back than that…without it clashing with human seat occupancy !

Its location that you see in the pic avoided a brashness and hyper-detail that 0.7 metre further forward (in usual ORTF location) gave in the sound check. I guess that small additional distance kept the ends-of-ensemble players from falling into the fig 8’s null zone?

Being active ribbons they have a quite conventional and generous output, similar to a typical condensor mic…these went into a Mackie 1402 VLZ Pro mixer, then line-level out from it (as an insert) into a Zoom R16 recorder/mixer, at 24 bit/44.1

The organ shown (Casavant Frere) indeed has some roar and fire….I’ll post a short sample here from the same concert featuring it.

The sax composition that's premiered here in concert is called ‘Yuluna Loop’, by David John Lang…the link below shows him talking about the inspirational landscape which gave rise to its’ creation: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QvSjxLkJepA

Last edited by studer58; 7th October 2021 at 02:35 AM..
Old 6th October 2021
  #11
Here for the gear
 
Great recording! Thank you.

The piece reminds of early Weather Report sound, Wayne Shorter specifically.
Old 6th October 2021
  #12
Gear Nut
 
The Voodoo VR2 seem rather good value at 500€!
Old 7th October 2021 | Show parent
  #13
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGebauer ➡️
The Voodoo VR2 seem rather good value at 500€!
Yes, it seems to bundle all the best factors of a modern ribbon....durability, high output, a non-typical healthy HF output (ie it's not noticeably dull in the highs, yet without condenser mic top end resonance either), has a sturdy shock mount, apparently good build and not visibly intrusive, weighty or bulky (unlike say a Coles 4038 or Rode NTR), reasonable price.

Thus far, the omens are good...I'll post more samples soon here: wind orchestra, classical guitar, small baroque ensemble, solo Steinway D9 (Decca tail). Some fare better than others...!

For my uses, I'm happy. Not yet tested enough to comment upon: RF or hum resistance, ribbon durability, interaction with various preamp ?

This link is a helpful compendium of various reviews plus product description: http://recordinghacks.com/microphone...lectronics/VR2

Also, if you're more likely to use a ribbon as a close mic and your mic preamp has sufficient output (or you can buy a Cloudlifter, Triton or similar booster).....don't neglect the lower cost and even smaller non-active VR1, which apparently has identical specs (apart from output level).... http://recordinghacks.com/microphone...lectronics/VR1

Last edited by studer58; 7th October 2021 at 03:20 AM..
Old 7th October 2021
  #14
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
12 saxes in a semicircle (see pic) makes it a.... dodecatet ?
You bought it...you name it !

Pair of 9" (22cm) spaced parallel (no angle) sE ribbon Voodoo VR2 mics, on a small bar, as per Tony Faulkner's original phased array (his 8" spacing shrinks the stereo width field a little too much...10" would be even better methinks !)

It's a good test-example of the utility of this array, simply due to the equi-spacing of the players in a full semicircle, so you can judge how accurately the array renders their relative positions ?

It's really not very high...maybe a foot or two (0.5m) above the conductor's head. Mic stand is located around 4-5 feet (1.5m) behind conductor...again, breaking with the tradition/spirit of the Faulkner array, which suggests "significantly further back" is the ideal placement for this rig ? These active ribbons seem to play very nicely with brass instruments too...!

You can judge its efficacy from the attached audio sample below the pic...only the pair used, no spots, no added reverb, no comp etc The suspended AB omni pair above the conductor are not used in this scenario either.
What an interesting piece and nicely recorded Studer.....the double 8 strikes again.!!

Ray
Old 11th October 2021
  #15
Lives for gear
 
mljung's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Great recording - surprisingly natural sound from the old Faulkner Fig-8 array and the sE ribbons. I do find it a little lacking in the 3D department, a little flat - I'm sure it's the array (tried it myself a few times). Still great and obviously very useful. Thanks for posting!
::
Mads
Old 11th October 2021 | Show parent
  #16
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JCBigler's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mljung ➡️
I do find it a little lacking in the 3D department, a little flat - I'm sure it's the array (tried it myself a few times).
Please explain what you mean by this. It's only a stereo recording, not an immersive format, so how could it possibly have any sort of 3 dimensional aspect to the sound?
Old 11th October 2021 | Show parent
  #17
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king2070lplaya's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler ➡️
Please explain what you mean by this. It's only a stereo recording, not an immersive format, so how could it possibly have any sort of 3 dimensional aspect to the sound?
You have 2 eyes and yet you can accurately perceive depth with them, yeah?
Old 11th October 2021 | Show parent
  #18
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JCBigler's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya ➡️
You have 2 eyes and yet you can accurately perceive depth with them, yeah?
We're talking about ears here, not eyes. All these players were ostensibly about the same distance from the mics. The mics were only a foot or so apart. I contend that you can't hear that little distance based on a millisecond of phase shift from one source to another.

At the minimum, you would need another microphone somewhere to provide a way to triangulate the sound sources from each other.
Old 11th October 2021
  #19
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king2070lplaya's Avatar
I guess I’ve just heard plenty of 2-mic recordings that exhibited a strong sense of depth and dimensionality, never considered it a phenomenon.
Old 11th October 2021
  #20
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Um Binaural much?

Even aside from that; 2ch has enormous potential for illusion of depth. Does NOT require having speakers behind you.

Depth is not only created by sources at different distances from the mics, but by the different delays between direct sound and room reflections. This is why most recordings that use too many mics have little depth - the delays become a smeared jumble. I call it 'grey sound'.
Old 11th October 2021 | Show parent
  #21
Gear Head
 
Wavefront's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler ➡️
The mics were only a foot or so apart. I contend that you can't hear that little distance based on a millisecond of phase shift from one source to another.
On the contrary, perceiving interaural time delays of well under 1 millisecond is precisely one of the pillars upon which our ear/brain system is able to localize sound sources.
Old 11th October 2021 | Show parent
  #22
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
Depth is not only created by sources at different distances from the mics, but by the different delays between direct sound and room reflections.
i wouldn't put it that way but yep...

Quote:
This is why most recordings that use too many mics have little depth - the delays become a smeared jumble. I call it 'grey sound'.
njet! this doesn't need to be the case - on the contrary actually: multiple delays enable a sense of depth in the first place (and to a degree far beyond what' possible with just a pair or trio of spaced main mics)...

...but then one needs to use a different approach and technique from what you seem to prefer.
Old 11th October 2021
  #23
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Indeed it doesn't 'need' to be the case, but it very often is. How high the levels of spots are makes all the difference.

Marc Aubort said it well:
"...because if you have the microphones in one plane, you get the depth and width of the stage. As soon as you start putting microphones all over the stage you flatten out the whole thing."
Old 12th October 2021
  #24
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
So….does time-aligning and delaying the spots to the main pair enhance or degrade the illusion of depth and 3 dimensionality in stereo recording and playback ?
Old 12th October 2021
  #25
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Theoretically, no - but do many people really do that with great precision on multiple spots? Wouldn't it require getting out there with a tape measure and calculating the exact time difference between every spot and the mains?
Old 12th October 2021 | Show parent
  #26
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
So….does time-aligning and delaying the spots to the main pair enhance or degrade the illusion of depth and 3 dimensionality in stereo recording and playback ?
depends on the spot mic's pattern and position...

...but for depth, i'm heavily relying on ambis.

[in addition, i'm using multiple efx devices, one of which adds early reflections to signals of (directional) close mics; then i'm using my beloved tc, lex, sony and quantec devices but maybe more inportantly, i have a unique virual surround panning algorithm running on my digital desks which is different from simple amplitude-based panning, as it also calculates appropriate frequency and time-related changes, leading to a much more realistic soundfield.

kinda ironic, innit? using artificial efx to create the illusion of realism...
anyway, works quite well imo...]
Old 12th October 2021 | Show parent
  #27
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
(...) do many people really do that with great precision on multiple spots? Wouldn't it require getting out there with a tape measure and calculating the exact time difference between every spot and the mains?
dunno about others - what i do is to engage a pad on the main mic system, then hit a pair of claves right by the mics and get the delays of all spots with one click!

that said, i hardly place 'random' spots on soft instruments (well, i do put a mic on the harp almost always) but use concentrical semi-circles of spots or section mics for which one gets away with identical delays...

...and whether i do really use the delays while mixing is another discussion!
Old 12th October 2021 | Show parent
  #28
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
Theoretically, no -
no, doesn't enhance...or no, doesn't degrade ?
Old 12th October 2021
  #29
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Tommy-boy's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks for posting Studer. Nice work.

Tom
Old 12th October 2021 | Show parent
  #30
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king2070lplaya's Avatar
Thanks for sharing this! Very interesting spotting philosophy, I’d like to give this a try sometime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
dunno about others - what i do is to engage a pad on the main mic system, then hit a pair of claves right by the mics and get the delays of all spots with one click!

that said, i hardly place 'random' spots on soft instruments (well, i do put a mic on the harp almost always) but use concentrical semi-circles of spots or section mics for which one gets away with identical delays...

...and whether i do really use the delays while mixing is another discussion!
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