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AEA TRP2 preamps or mixer 10II preamps for AEA N8
Old 4 days ago
  #1
AEA TRP2 preamps or MixPre 10II preamps for AEA N8

Hello everybody,

I will record a concert tomorrow (harpe + singer).
I plan to bring a couple or AEA N8's and to record in my MIXPRE 10II.
I could bring my TRP2 preamps that I use in my studio but I would like to be as light as possible (and I am a bit lazy to deplug everything).

I never used the N8 with the MIXPRE preamps and don't have time to test it before tomorrow.

Do you think the difference between the two preamps will be very noticeable?

Thanks in advance.

Jean-Philippe
Old 4 days ago
  #2
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David Rick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I would just use the MixPre10 preamps in this circumstance. A TRP preamp is designed to improve results with traditional (passive) ribbon microphones that are very sensitive to how they are loaded by the preamp. The N8's are active ribbons with low impedance outputs. They don't really care what you connect to them.

David
Old 4 days ago
  #3
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jnorman's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
The N8s are active ribbons and work perfectly with the MixPre. No reason to lug the trp.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman ➡️
The N8s are active ribbons and work perfectly with the MixPre. No reason to lug the trp.
Thanks!

I hoped to hear that…
Old 4 days ago
  #5
Gear Maniac
 
brhoward's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
In your case, the only major difference in the two options is the self noise of the preamps. From my experience using both those preamps (and other preamps) with an active ribbon, I would only expect to run into preamp noise floor issues when the source is very quiet and your preamp gain is very high.

I agree with the other comments completely.

I have used the AEA N8 with Pendulum, Merging, Sound Devices, Revox, Sonosax, D.A.V., RME, NEVE 511 and AEA TRP, and found no problems except when needing high gain. The lower noise floor preamps fair better in that situation.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by brhoward ➡️
In your case, the only major difference in the two options is the self noise of the preamps. From my experience using both those preamps (and other preamps) with an active ribbon, I would only expect to run into preamp noise floor issues when the source is very quiet and your preamp gain is very high.

I agree with the other comments completely.

I have used the AEA N8 with Pendulum, Merging, Sound Devices, Revox, Sonosax, D.A.V., RME, NEVE 511 and AEA TRP, and found no problems except when needing high gain. The lower noise floor preamps fair better in that situation.
Harp + classical singing will not be completely in the « quiet sources category » i think, or just at the limit.
I can try to place the couple not too far from the musicians.
Still have to decide if I put them in Blumlein (what I always do) or in ORTF. The AEA website mention that possibility but without explaining in which case we could take advantage of this solution over the Blumlein.
Any thoughts about this would be appreciated !
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #7
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adagietto ➡️
Harp + classical singing will not be completely in the « quiet sources category » i think, or just at the limit.
I can try to place the couple not too far from the musicians.
Still have to decide if I put them in Blumlein (what I always do) or in ORTF. The AEA website mention that possibility but without explaining in which case we could take advantage of this solution over the Blumlein.
Any thoughts about this would be appreciated !
Curious why not MS?
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad ➡️
Curious why not MS?
I must confess that I have nearly no experience with MS…
Which microphone could be a good choice for the center with the N8’s?
I don’t have so much choices in fact. I have 2 414, km A 184, tlm 103 (+3 N8, r84a, some dpa’s…)
I don’t know if I would like to take the risk of experimenting a MS in an improvised way.
Or do you think I would take a so big risk?
With software or plugin do I need after to « translate » it in a stereo track?
Do I need just to record the fig8 mic on one track and the center on another track?
I edit in Pro Tools.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #9
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adagietto ➡️
I must confess that I have nearly no experience with MS…
Which microphone could be a good choice for the center with the N8’s?
I don’t have so much choices in fact. I have 2 414, km A 184, tlm 103 (+3 N8, r84a, some dpa’s…)
I don’t know if I would like to take the risk of experimenting a MS in an improvised way.
Or do you think I would take a so big risk?
With software or plugin do I need after to « translate » it in a stereo track?
Do I need just to record the fig8 mic on one track and the center on another track?
I edit in Pro Tools.
Just use the same N8 mics that you use for Blumlein but aim one of the mics at the performers and the other goes right and left. Record the M and the S in discrete channels. Use a plug-in like the free Voxengo MS in your DAW. IMO the advantage is that you get the full benefit of the on-axis frequency response of the Mid mic and you have the ability to adjust the width of the recording in post, which allows you more flexibility to position the mics closer or farther away. Of course, you can use other mic patterns for the Mid mic as well - from omni through hyper cardioid - but I would start with the N8 mics. Monitoring on location is a little more problematic, depending on what equipment you use (whether it offers MS decoding) but if you monitor just the Mid mic and get the sound right, the stereo signal is sure to sound OK. Have fun and remember: MS is just the 'other' Blumlein technique.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad ➡️
Just use the same N8 mics that you use for Blumlein but aim one of the mics at the performers and the other goes right and left. Record the M and the S in discrete channels. Use a plug-in like the free Voxengo MS in your DAW. IMO the advantage is that you get the full benefit of the on-axis frequency response of the Mid mic and you have the ability to adjust the width of the recording in post, which allows you more flexibility to position the mics closer or farther away. Of course, you can use other mic patterns for the Mid mic as well - from omni through hyper cardioid - but I would start with the N8 mics. Monitoring on location is a little more problematic, depending on what equipment you use (whether it offers MS decoding) but if you monitor just the Mid mic and get the sound right, the stereo signal is sure to sound OK. Have fun and remember: MS is just the 'other' Blumlein technique.
Thanks,
So I can just place the 2 N8's on the AEA bar that I use for Blumlein but I just turn it in a way I will have one N8 oriented to the musicians and the other one to sides of the stage?
I had pretty good results with the N8's in blumlein in the past to record some chamber music groups, but sometimes with some stereo issues. Some instruments sounded too much on one side of the stereo image.

But I didn't know that I could use a fig8 microphone for the center in MS recording. I thought it should be an omni or cardio.

By the way, I think that the Mixer 10II allow MS decoding for monitoring.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #11
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adagietto ➡️
Thanks,
So I can just place the 2 N8's on the AEA bar that I use for Blumlein but I just turn it in a way I will have one N8 oriented to the musicians and the other one to sides of the stage?
I had pretty good results with the N8's in blumlein in the past to record some chamber music groups, but sometimes with some stereo issues. Some instruments sounded too much on one side of the stereo image.

But I didn't know that I could use a fig8 microphone for the center in MS recording. I thought it should be an omni or cardio.

By the way, I think that the Mixer 10II allow MS decoding for monitoring.
Yes, just turn your Blumlein rig 45 degrees. The Vogengo MS plug in gives you the ability to adjust the relative balance of the mid and side (determines how wide your stereo) and also allows you to pan the side signal to correct off-centre instruments, etc. If you can decode the the MS signal for monitoring, it should be easy to position the mics. Cardioid and other directional patterns are used when you need to pick up less of the room or audience but many great recordings have been made with two figure 8 mics. Do a search here for recordings made by rolo46 - his stuff always sounds amazing.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #12
Gear Maniac
 
brhoward's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adagietto ➡️
Harp + classical singing will not be completely in the « quiet sources category » i think, or just at the limit.
I can try to place the couple not too far from the musicians.
Still have to decide if I put them in Blumlein (what I always do) or in ORTF. The AEA website mention that possibility but without explaining in which case we could take advantage of this solution over the Blumlein.
Any thoughts about this would be appreciated !
I tend to either use ribbons in parallel stereo (20 cm or so) or in blumlein, but I haven't tried a figure-8 spaced array with an ORTF-like angle.
The parallel spaced pair is good when the room is less desirable, the blumlein nice when you want a hyper focus stereo sound in a good sounding room. As TonyF has described elsewhere, not pretending to have that much experience, the spaced fig-8 pair is great at getting rid of reflections from the side and above—large churches can be made to sound smaller and less reverberant. 
I like the parallel spaced pair for spot mic'ing at distance of like 5-6 feet.
Like in this video where I use spaced ribbons on Theorbo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Keo7...eatArts.Period.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by brhoward ➡️
I tend to either use ribbons in parallel stereo (20 cm or so) or in blumlein, but I haven't tried a figure-8 spaced array with an ORTF-like angle.
The parallel spaced pair is good when the room is less desirable, the blumlein nice when you want a hyper focus stereo sound in a good sounding room. As TonyF has described elsewhere, not pretending to have that much experience, the spaced fig-8 pair is great at getting rid of reflections from the side and above—large churches can be made to sound smaller and less reverberant. 
I like the parallel spaced pair for spot mic'ing at distance of like 5-6 feet.
Like in this video where I use spaced ribbons on Theorbo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Keo7...eatArts.Period.

I sounds really well and is quite close to what I will record tonight. So you you used an ORTF pair of N8 to take the duo and 2 spots on the singer? Which mics on the singer? No spot on the guitar?
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #14
I just sent an email to you
Old 3 days ago
  #15
Lives for gear
 
David Rick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
M/S with figure-8 microphones was covered in Blumlein's original patent. I don't know whether you want to record in M/S tonight or not but, if so, you should be able to tell your MixPre to decode it for monitoring purposes. Check the manual: it's a feature of the first two channels on my 744t.

The decision of whether to use M/S or X/Y Blumlein comes down to where the primaryc souce of interest is on the sound stage. You'd prefer it to be on-axis with some microphone. Either a M/S or X/Y coincident array can have its width adjusted in post. The matrixing involved is not so successful in the case of a near-coincident pair like ORTF, but such an array has better spaciousness than a coincident pair. Note that the maximum angle subtended by the ensemble has an upper limit with Blumlein. Near-coincident pairs can be designed for any stage width.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #16
Gear Maniac
 
brhoward's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adagietto ➡️
I sounds really well and is quite close to what I will record tonight. So you you used an ORTF pair of N8 to take the duo and 2 spots on the singer? Which mics on the singer? No spot on the guitar?
This is a schoeps mk21 pair spotting the soprano and N8 spaced pair (no angle) spotting the theorbo. ambiance pair is a AEA r88 in blumlein, about 3.5m behind the duo, and schoeps mk2s at ~40cm spacing at 3m in front.
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