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Using Protools as simultaneous recording and PA system
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1
Gear Nut
 
🎧 15 years
Using Protools as simultaneous recording and PA system

My recording biz is now housed in a small 120 seat theatre. I use the space for tracking projects when no shows or plays are on. We produce live music shows and I use my PT/ Metric Halo rig to record and do house PA and monitors. So far so good.

I wonder if anyone else out there uses PT in the same way?

Works good for me, all familiar plugins for recording or mixing are right there for front of house sound.

2 bus mix is house sound, headphone mixes are monitors. Then it’s all there tracked to mix for cd, mp3
Whatever.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceB ➡️
My recording biz is now housed in a small 120 seat theatre. I use the space for tracking projects when no shows or plays are on. We produce live music shows and I use my PT/ Metric Halo rig to record and do house PA and monitors. So far so good.

I wonder if anyone else out there uses PT in the same way?

Works good for me, all familiar plugins for recording or mixing are right there for front of house sound.

2 bus mix is house sound, headphone mixes are monitors. Then it’s all there tracked to mix for cd, mp3
Whatever.
Sounds good to me. If you can pull the live shows off with your recording rig then that's just that much less technology involved in the show, a good thing. Aren't the folks using the big Avid FOH consoles essentially doing the same thing?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #3
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kludgeaudio's Avatar
 
Latency through PT isn't a problem? If not.... sure!

I have mixed house sound through the remote truck when the FOB console died.
--scott
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I did a live internet radio show for 4 1/2 years using PT and a control surface with all tracks on Input, stock PT EQ's and some sort of "Purple 1176" comp plugins on the monitor side, and a Massey L2007 on the mix bus. In over 200 shows, I think two guests mentioned that they noticed the latency a tiny bit. So it worked for that, and for PA it should be equally doable.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #5
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
a desk mix, a mix for release and a mix for broadcasting are entirely different worlds, unless we're talking about spoken word - then - and only then - a geneneric mix might be ok-ish to serve multiple purposes.

i'd never use a daw to accomplish a live mix, unless i'd be forced to do so and if it'd be a very simple setup - but a full blown band in an acoustically challenging venue or a live feed? no way!

besides, most daw's slmply don't have the features i've come to like about large live/broadcast desks...

...and it's simply impossible to account for room anomalies, ambient sound and effects from speakers/room interaction if mixing foh from a remote truck; measured spl level alone doesn't tell you enough how things feel in da house either.

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 3 weeks ago at 08:36 PM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #6
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Last week I did a live stream and a recording of a jazz quartet (just 8 channels) using my Babyface and an 8ch ADAT preamp with RME TotalMiix and Reaper running on my old HP laptop. It went pretty smoothly...better than I had hoped for. TotalMix with the touch screen on my laptop was surprisingly reassuring to this old analogue dinosaur.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #7
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tourtelot's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I had two pretty public and painful crashes of Pro Tools on a dedicated computer, two in a row. After that, I vowed that I would never take Pro Tools on location.

I do still however use Reaper and a MacBook Pro to back up my JoeCo BBR64-Dante recorder and it has never failed me. The live PA stuff? I guess I am old school and would use a mixing panel of some sort for that.

YMMV.

D.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #8
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio ➡️
Latency through PT isn't a problem? If not.... sure!

I have mixed house sound through the remote truck when the FOB console died.
--scott
I've done Monitors and/or FOH from my truck.

IMHO, it's a great way to do it.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #9
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness ➡️
I've done Monitors and/or FOH from my truck.

IMHO, it's a great way to do it.
How do you do FOH if you're not in the "H"?
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #10
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
There are a couple of ways it can be done.

You can approach it like Frank Zappa did back in the day. All his live show mixes started in his mobile. He would have his engineer, Mark Pinske (RIP) mix the 132 stage inputs down to 24 channels which were distributed to his two 2" analog machines in the truck, the FOH desk in the house and the MON desk on stage. The MON engineer had the option to use the 24 mixed channels Mark created from the truck plus any of the available 132 stage inputs if they felt they needed to augment the musician's on stage monitor mix needs.

When we do FOH mixing from the truck, we have done it a similar but simpler way. We create stems from the stage inputs and feed them to a small desk at FOH. Anywhere from 4 to 8 stereo submixes are sent to the house. Depending on the situation we may or may not have an operator at that position for the show. All the FOH input channels are left static unless it's applicable to adjust them accordingly.

The other way we have done FOH from the truck is to feed our FOH stereo mix to the house stacks, and have a stereo mic pair fed back to the truck as a way to monitor the room. Ears in the room is another way to monitor and report back to us.

This approach is not much different than when we have to do FOH from an enclosure, another room or even on stage for that matter.

IMHO, it actually works out to be a lot better when you're mixing FOH away from the room you're mixing for.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn ➡️
How do you do FOH if you're not in the "H"?
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #11
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kludgeaudio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
a desk mix, a mix for release and a mix for broadcasting are entirely different worlds, unless we're talking about spoken word - then - and only then - a geneneric mix might be ok-ish to serve multiple purposes.
I think the original poster wasn't talking about making a record mix with PT at FOH... I think he was talking about using PT at FOH to make a PA mix while simultaneously recording tracks into PT for later mixing. Which is... kind of scary... I don't trust PT enough to do that and latency seems a real worry.... but I guess you could try it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
...and it's simply impossible to account for room anomalies, ambient sound and effects from speakers/room interaction if mixing foh from a remote truck; measured spl level alone doesn't tell you enough how things fell in da house either.
I'm not suggesting it's a good idea, even with an A2 stationed in the hall to listen. But nobody died and we all got paid.
--scott
Old 3 weeks ago
  #12
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uptheoctave's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
This this is where Dante can be super helpful because you can set a source to multiple destinations.

For instance Dante stage boxes are sent both to the FOH console and to a remote recording rig.

That could simply be a laptop running Dante Virtual Soundcard, or any of the Dante capable audio interfaces that exist.
Up to 64 channels now with PT (non HDX).
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #13
Gear Nut
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio ➡️
I think the original poster wasn't talking about making a record mix with PT at FOH... I think he was talking about using PT at FOH to make a PA mix while simultaneously recording tracks into PT for later mixing. Which is... kind of scary... I don't trust PT enough to do that and latency seems a real worry.... but I guess you could try it.



I'm not suggesting it's a good idea, even with an A2 stationed in the hall to listen. But nobody died and we all got paid.
--scott
BruceB here, OP on this topic.

I appreciate the replies here very much, thanks folks.

kludge you are correct, I am only simutaneously recording and doing house mix and monitors. I mix on another day.
I was a bit skeptical at first, but ran some tests recording empty stage for an hour or so, no hiccups.

All tracks on input, usually no more than 10 tracks, 4-5 monitor sends.
I haven't had any latency issues, all has been stable.
Mine is a permanent system in the theatre, it's the ProArts Playhouse on Maui btw.

If I go remote, it will be the MH boxes that go.

My front end is Metric Halo box, ADAT to PT system.
If I wanted to I could make backup recording to MH session panel. I will try that later-- I just wanted to make sure the PT thing would work without adding any complications possible from MH system.

Now here you guys may think I'm nuts...
sitting right next to me is a Midas X32 console.
Another engineer has it there and I am welcome to use it.
I may try that also, but I have more flexibility and familiarity with my rig, my plugins etc. I prefer my preamps (MH and Silver Bullet) and MH converters too.

I also will need x amount of time to be fluent with that box on the fly in a show. I have read about some failures with it too. Wouldn't hurt to learn it though.

I'm encouraged by report from Steve Remote on his success with a huge system compared to mine!

Dante system sounds good too, I have a friend here who uses it. Would be great to feed both systems simultaneously.

Thanks all,
Bruce
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #14
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness ➡️
There are a couple of ways it can be done.

You can approach it like Frank Zappa did back in the day. All his live show mixes started in his mobile. He would have his engineer, Mark Pinske (RIP) mix the 132 stage inputs down to 24 channels which were distributed to his two 2" analog machines in the truck, the FOH desk in the house and the MON desk on stage. The MON engineer had the option to use the 24 mixed channels Mark created from the truck plus any of the available 132 stage inputs if they felt they needed to augment the musician's on stage monitor mix needs.

When we do FOH mixing from the truck, we have done it a similar but simpler way. We create stems from the stage inputs and feed them to a small desk at FOH. Anywhere from 4 to 8 stereo submixes are sent to the house. Depending on the situation we may or may not have an operator at that position for the show. All the FOH input channels are left static unless it's applicable to adjust them accordingly.

The other way we have done FOH from the truck is to feed our FOH stereo mix to the house stacks, and have a stereo mic pair fed back to the truck as a way to monitor the room. Ears in the room is another way to monitor and report back to us.

This approach is not much different than when we have to do FOH from an enclosure, another room or even on stage for that matter.

IMHO, it actually works out to be a lot better when you're mixing FOH away from the room you're mixing for.
The part about submixing stems makes some sense.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #15
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio ➡️
I'm not suggesting it's a good idea, even with an A2 stationed in the hall to listen. But nobody died and we all got paid.
nowadays it's much less about what's technically possible and there are hardly any technical reasons for bad sound.

however, the ubiquitous availability of affordable equiment with relatively many features we could only dream of 25 years ago tempts some people to overestimate themselves:

i see a growing gap between aspirations and possibilities at every level of production but of course everyone os free embarrass themselves as best they can...

no one dies from bad sound but it hurts nevertheless!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #16
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hbphotoav's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
"Low-end" guy here... I (used to) regularly mix choral music for churches and schools and occasional bands, live to the house system or to my own PA, and track 12-24 tracks into a Logic session on a MacBook Pro (SSD) directly from my M32's USB port. On "better" choral gigs, I'd have eight primary "hero" channels in via a BG8, and, once or twice, four Apogee mic amps from an '08 Ensemble, and let the onboards handle the rest. Once gain structure was determined at soundcheck, mixing the house/monitors was straightforward, via layers and a iPad, and preamp levels were pretty much where they needed to be for tracking as well. I've not had a blown recording since moving to the little Midas, and the setup is efficient and tidy with a DL16 or DL 32 handling I/O onstage.

For years, I've done gear support for a pro bono Christmas concert benefitting a local family homeless shelter that is mixed and edited to a radio show after the event. So far, no complaints from anyone about the way the supplied KM84s, U67s, DPA d:facto vocal mics (last year) and 4099s (and a smattering of Shure and Sennheiser workhorses) sound, in the house or on the radio. I'd be really uncomfortable sending a live mix to FoH from a laptop screen... but, then... I'm old... and I like faders.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #17
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Whether it makes some sense to you or not, we have been doing this successfully for decades.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn ➡️
The part about submixing stems makes some sense.
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