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Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array
Old 6 days ago
  #1
Gear Head
 
Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array

I wasn't sure of the angles of the microphones - is the middle pair 110º and the end pair 45º?

omni's left and right at 67cm
cardioid at 47 cm

using a pair of DPA 4006 and 4011

specifically if you look here the angle of the middle pair looks larger than the 45º I've read on a few GS threads

https://youtu.be/8uCcFIyJJ-w?t=2024

Thanks for your help
Old 6 days ago
  #2
Lives for gear
 
JCBigler's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Boy, now you done it...you might as well have just hit a hornet's nest with a baseball bat.

I use a similar set up, but I don't call it a Faulkner array.

I use a wide cardioid in NOS as the center pair, and a pair of omnis as a spaced pair for the outer ones. The NOS pair I have at 90 degrees and 12". The outer pair is the same, 90 degrees also as it mirrors the inner pair, but are about 27" or so apart.

I think Tony's angles are closer to the 110 degrees of an ORTF pair.
Old 6 days ago
  #3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I think because it’s using a standard ‘Rode user manual’ diagram/template for ORTF, you’re seeing 110 degrees rather than 90. Follow TF’s advice in that video…test the audio empirically, using your ears.

As JCB mentions, a wide cardioid centre pair is recommended for NOS spacing, it probably depends on how enamoured you are with the ‘stereophonic precision’ of the ORTF imaging, vs the looser version in NOS. The 67cm AB omni gives you the spacious, extended LF ambient flavour anyway

What does he say about it here in the George Shilling interview ?

https://youtu.be/v8qkjoWJwSI
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #4
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler ➡️
Boy, now you done it...you might as well have just hit a hornet's nest with a baseball bat.

I use a similar set up, but I don't call it a Faulkner array.

I use a wide cardioid in NOS as the center pair, and a pair of omnis as a spaced pair for the outer ones. The NOS pair I have at 90 degrees and 12". The outer pair is the same, 90 degrees also as it mirrors the inner pair, but are about 27" or so apart.

I think Tony's angles are closer to the 110 degrees of an ORTF pair.
yes i believe in the middle they are 110º
Old 6 days ago
  #5
Gear Nut
 
Per TF's own posts, he's recommended 17cm/100 degrees for cardioids, and 46-47cm/"angled out" for sub-cardioids (his preference). But in an interview he stated 41.2cm for cardioids, and that this was derived from dividing his 66.7cm omni spacing by the Golden Ratio ("...and there it has stuck!"). Also that he first tried ORTF and NOS, for the middle pair, but didn't like the result.

He's also emphasized that the spacing and angle of the directional pair should be set by ear to suit the particular mics/patterns being used. So, some inconsistency from him on this, but it seems clear from his many remarks about it that the exact spacing and angle are not that critical; he's been much more consistent about the outer omnis being at ~67cm, and angled 90 degrees.

Additionally, in response to an e-mail, he said with cards, sometimes a shelf boost of 2dB at 20Hz "can remove some of the perma-frost of SDCs." He also added that using hypers or even fig 8 in the middle can help in tricky acoustics.

Correlating all this with the Sengpiel imaging tool shows that the spacing and angle he prefers for the directional pair work out to more closely match that of the outer omnis, than ORTF or NOS do (except his one outlier mention of cards at 17cm/100 degrees). This makes sense, since the aim of the four-mic array is to adjust the wet/dry of the sound without unduly shifting the stereo image.
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #6
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
Additionally, in response to an e-mail, he said with cards, sometimes a shelf boost of 2dB at 20Hz "can remove some of the perma-frost of SDCs." He also added that using hypers or even fig 8 in the middle can help in tricky acoustics.
I'm not convinced there's usually much output from a cardioid mic to boost at 20Hz.....reaching down that low is usually the province of the 67cm pressure omni AB pair on the outer edges of the bar.

Indeed for most concerts in non-studio contexts, that's the range I'd be rolling off to minimize traffic rumble and other seismic LF content.

Apologies to organ recordists....of course ...and even they probably have their proprietary tricks for retaining meaningful LF musical content 'down there', while skilfully excising the unwanted vestigial dross ?

Last edited by studer58; 6 days ago at 02:44 PM..
Old 6 days ago
  #7
Here for the gear
 
I have some test record using Tf array on Beethoven's Symphony No.2 and No.4,live record in Ningbo Symphony Orchestra, sounds great.
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Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-1626873063611.jpg   Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-1626873007961.jpg   Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-1626873007961.jpg   Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-1626873041176.jpg   Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-1626873031862.jpg  

Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #8
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
I'm not convinced there's usually much output from a cardioid mic to boost at 20Hz.....reaching down that low is usually the province of the 67cm pressure omni AB pair on the outer edges of the bar.

Indeed for most concerts in non-studio contexts, that's the range I'd be rolling off to minimize traffic rumble and other LF rumble content.

Apologies to organ recordists....of course ...and even they probably have their proprietary tricks for retaining meaningful LF musical content 'down there', while skilfully excising the unwanted vestigial dross ?
Vestigial dross.

I've made a note of that!!
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #9
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhu Shijia ➡️
I have some test record using Tf array on Beethoven's Symphony No.2 and No.4,live record in Ningbo Symphony Orchestra, sounds great.
It's a bit hard to tell how the mics are deployed from the photos. Is it a 4 mic array, or a two fig.8 mics phased array ?

It looks like the 2 stands behind the conductor each hold 2 mics: the Omni pair on top of each stand, and the inner cardioid mics on arms branching off from each stand ?

The spacing of the Omni mics seems to be the width of the podium, perhaps 1.0-1.2 metres ?
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #10
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Poulton ➡️
Vestigial dross.

I've made a note of that!!
It's the Received Pronunciation version of 'subsonic crap'
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #11
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
i tend to prefer an l/c/r setup, with the middle pair being m/s (cardioid for the center). the angles of the outer pair (wide cardioids mostly) depend on the width of the orchestra, the spacing too but also on the room sound and the entire array goes a bit further back, behind the conductor. i occasionally add a blm for the lf(e).
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #12
Gear Head
 
Wavefront's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
i occasionally add a blm for the lf(e).
In these cases, I assume you would place the BLM directly beneath your L/C/R system, or . . . ?
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #13
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
It's a bit hard to tell how the mics are deployed from the photos. Is it a 4 mic array, or a two fig.8 mics phased array ?

It looks like the 2 stands behind the conductor each hold 2 mics: the Omni pair on top of each stand, and the inner cardioid mics on arms branching off from each stand ?

The spacing of the Omni mics seems to be the width of the podium, perhaps 1.0-1.2 metres ?
Yes,That's a 4 mic array, the Omni 4006a pair are 1.0metres,Inner cardioid mics are 4011a.
Old 6 days ago
  #14
Here for the gear
 
L.C.R mic array were most recently tested on Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet suite.
Attached Thumbnails
Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-img_20210710_005709-1-.jpg   Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-img_20210710_011921-1-.jpg   Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-img_20210710_011254-1-.jpg   Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-img_20210710_184102-1-.jpg  
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #15
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavefront ➡️
In these cases, I assume you would place the BLM directly beneath your L/C/R system, or . . . ?
depends on where 'beneath' is...

i put it behind the conductor's podium (on the audience side) or then closer to the basses; i'm using a steep lpf filter on the blm so - with not much if any overlap in terms of frequency range - aligning isn't much of a concern.

if i cannot use a blm, i'm using an omni which then gets positioned as close as possible to the m/s.



[i guess i should call it l/C/r+sub array (with a capital C) as the m/s in the center mostly does the trick, certainly on smaller ensembles - oh, and i almost always use dedicated ambis, preferably at some distance and in very wide a/b, to get largely uncorrelated ambient sound...

...so in effect, the entire rig gives me the option of mixing in 5.1 without any additional efforts, except that i'm then using either a double m/s or ambinsonic mic in the center position.]
Old 6 days ago
  #16
Here for the gear
 
I'm very appreciate the TF's array give me the very good sound on Beethoven Symphony.
Attached Thumbnails
Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-img_20200119_180224.jpg  
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #17
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhu Shijia ➡️
(...) the TF's array give me the very good sound (...)
no doubt about it!

nice looking venue btw: what is the audience capacity?

what imo all arrays have in common is that they can pick up relatively large/wide ensembles, that they give us some options while mixing and that they are efficient in the sense that one does not need to spend endless time for setup.
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #18
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
no doubt about it!

nice looking venue btw: what is the audience capacity?

what imo all arrays have in common is that they can pick up relatively large/wide ensembles, that they give us some options while mixing and that they are efficient in the sense that one does not need to spend endless time for setup.
The audience capacity are 1508, Ningbo Grand Theatre,acoustic designed by France.
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #19
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhu Shijia ➡️
I'm very appreciate the TF's array give me the very good sound on Beethoven Symphony.
Interesting use of those ‘elbows’ to support the cardioid pair…I’m guessing it might be difficult to set their distance and angle with much precision?
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #20
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Interesting use of those ‘elbows’ to support the cardioid pair…I’m guessing it might be difficult to set their distance and angle with much precision?
You are right! It coast a lot of time to adjust.
Old 6 days ago
  #21
Gear Nut
 
We all know TF is no stooge - I assumed what he meant was a wide shelf boost ending at +2dB at 20Hz; starting a couple of octaves above that. It also may have been a typo, and he meant 200Hz - but the idea is that a subtle low EQ of the cards can smooth their brittleness quite a bit. I've found myself that with cards well beyond 3', a bit of bass boost is more effective than EQing the brightness down.
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