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Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array
Old 21st July 2021
  #1
Gear Head
 
Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array

I wasn't sure of the angles of the microphones - is the middle pair 110º and the end pair 45º?

omni's left and right at 67cm
cardioid at 47 cm

using a pair of DPA 4006 and 4011

specifically if you look here the angle of the middle pair looks larger than the 45º I've read on a few GS threads

https://youtu.be/8uCcFIyJJ-w?t=2024

Thanks for your help
Old 21st July 2021
  #2
Lives for gear
 
JCBigler's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Boy, now you done it...you might as well have just hit a hornet's nest with a baseball bat.

I use a similar set up, but I don't call it a Faulkner array.

I use a wide cardioid in NOS as the center pair, and a pair of omnis as a spaced pair for the outer ones. The NOS pair I have at 90 degrees and 12". The outer pair is the same, 90 degrees also as it mirrors the inner pair, but are about 27" or so apart.

I think Tony's angles are closer to the 110 degrees of an ORTF pair.
Old 21st July 2021
  #3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I think because it’s using a standard ‘Rode user manual’ diagram/template for ORTF, you’re seeing 110 degrees rather than 90. Follow TF’s advice in that video…test the audio empirically, using your ears.

As JCB mentions, a wide cardioid centre pair is recommended for NOS spacing, it probably depends on how enamoured you are with the ‘stereophonic precision’ of the ORTF imaging, vs the looser version in NOS. The 67cm AB omni gives you the spacious, extended LF ambient flavour anyway

What does he say about it here in the George Shilling interview ?

https://youtu.be/v8qkjoWJwSI
Old 21st July 2021 | Show parent
  #4
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler ➡️
Boy, now you done it...you might as well have just hit a hornet's nest with a baseball bat.

I use a similar set up, but I don't call it a Faulkner array.

I use a wide cardioid in NOS as the center pair, and a pair of omnis as a spaced pair for the outer ones. The NOS pair I have at 90 degrees and 12". The outer pair is the same, 90 degrees also as it mirrors the inner pair, but are about 27" or so apart.

I think Tony's angles are closer to the 110 degrees of an ORTF pair.
yes i believe in the middle they are 110º
Old 21st July 2021
  #5
Gear Maniac
 
Per TF's own posts, he's recommended 17cm/100 degrees for cardioids, and 46-47cm/"angled out" for sub-cardioids (his preference). But in an interview he stated 41.2cm for cardioids, and that this was derived from dividing his 66.7cm omni spacing by the Golden Ratio ("...and there it has stuck!"). Also that he first tried ORTF and NOS, for the middle pair, but didn't like the result.

He's also emphasized that the spacing and angle of the directional pair should be set by ear to suit the particular mics/patterns being used. So, some inconsistency from him on this, but it seems clear from his many remarks about it that the exact spacing and angle are not that critical; he's been much more consistent about the outer omnis being at ~67cm, and angled 90 degrees.

Additionally, in response to an e-mail, he said with cards, sometimes a shelf boost of 2dB at 20Hz "can remove some of the perma-frost of SDCs." He also added that using hypers or even fig 8 in the middle can help in tricky acoustics.

Correlating all this with the Sengpiel imaging tool shows that the spacing and angle he prefers for the directional pair work out to more closely match that of the outer omnis, than ORTF or NOS do (except his one outlier mention of cards at 17cm/100 degrees). This makes sense, since the aim of the four-mic array is to adjust the wet/dry of the sound without unduly shifting the stereo image.
Old 21st July 2021 | Show parent
  #6
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
Additionally, in response to an e-mail, he said with cards, sometimes a shelf boost of 2dB at 20Hz "can remove some of the perma-frost of SDCs." He also added that using hypers or even fig 8 in the middle can help in tricky acoustics.
I'm not convinced there's usually much output from a cardioid mic to boost at 20Hz.....reaching down that low is usually the province of the 67cm pressure omni AB pair on the outer edges of the bar.

Indeed for most concerts in non-studio contexts, that's the range I'd be rolling off to minimize traffic rumble and other seismic LF content.

Apologies to organ recordists....of course ...and even they probably have their proprietary tricks for retaining meaningful LF musical content 'down there', while skilfully excising the unwanted vestigial dross ?

Last edited by studer58; 21st July 2021 at 02:44 PM..
Old 21st July 2021
  #7
Here for the gear
 
I have some test record using Tf array on Beethoven's Symphony No.2 and No.4,live record in Ningbo Symphony Orchestra, sounds great.
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Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-1626873063611.jpg   Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-1626873007961.jpg   Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-1626873007961.jpg   Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-1626873041176.jpg   Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-1626873031862.jpg  

Old 21st July 2021 | Show parent
  #8
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
I'm not convinced there's usually much output from a cardioid mic to boost at 20Hz.....reaching down that low is usually the province of the 67cm pressure omni AB pair on the outer edges of the bar.

Indeed for most concerts in non-studio contexts, that's the range I'd be rolling off to minimize traffic rumble and other LF rumble content.

Apologies to organ recordists....of course ...and even they probably have their proprietary tricks for retaining meaningful LF musical content 'down there', while skilfully excising the unwanted vestigial dross ?
Vestigial dross.

I've made a note of that!!
Old 21st July 2021 | Show parent
  #9
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhu Shijia ➡️
I have some test record using Tf array on Beethoven's Symphony No.2 and No.4,live record in Ningbo Symphony Orchestra, sounds great.
It's a bit hard to tell how the mics are deployed from the photos. Is it a 4 mic array, or a two fig.8 mics phased array ?

It looks like the 2 stands behind the conductor each hold 2 mics: the Omni pair on top of each stand, and the inner cardioid mics on arms branching off from each stand ?

The spacing of the Omni mics seems to be the width of the podium, perhaps 1.0-1.2 metres ?
Old 21st July 2021 | Show parent
  #10
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Poulton ➡️
Vestigial dross.

I've made a note of that!!
It's the Received Pronunciation version of 'subsonic crap'
Old 21st July 2021 | Show parent
  #11
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
i tend to prefer an l/c/r setup, with the middle pair being m/s (cardioid for the center). the angles of the outer pair (wide cardioids mostly) depend on the width of the orchestra, the spacing too but also on the room sound and the entire array goes a bit further back, behind the conductor. i occasionally add a blm for the lf(e).
Old 21st July 2021 | Show parent
  #12
Gear Head
 
Wavefront's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
i occasionally add a blm for the lf(e).
In these cases, I assume you would place the BLM directly beneath your L/C/R system, or . . . ?
Old 21st July 2021 | Show parent
  #13
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
It's a bit hard to tell how the mics are deployed from the photos. Is it a 4 mic array, or a two fig.8 mics phased array ?

It looks like the 2 stands behind the conductor each hold 2 mics: the Omni pair on top of each stand, and the inner cardioid mics on arms branching off from each stand ?

The spacing of the Omni mics seems to be the width of the podium, perhaps 1.0-1.2 metres ?
Yes,That's a 4 mic array, the Omni 4006a pair are 1.0metres,Inner cardioid mics are 4011a.
Old 21st July 2021
  #14
Here for the gear
 
L.C.R mic array were most recently tested on Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet suite.
Attached Thumbnails
Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-img_20210710_005709-1-.jpg   Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-img_20210710_011921-1-.jpg   Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-img_20210710_011254-1-.jpg   Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-img_20210710_184102-1-.jpg  
Old 21st July 2021 | Show parent
  #15
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavefront ➡️
In these cases, I assume you would place the BLM directly beneath your L/C/R system, or . . . ?
depends on where 'beneath' is...

i put it behind the conductor's podium (on the audience side) or then closer to the basses; i'm using a steep lpf filter on the blm so - with not much if any overlap in terms of frequency range - aligning isn't much of a concern.

if i cannot use a blm, i'm using an omni which then gets positioned as close as possible to the m/s.



[i guess i should call it l/C/r+sub array (with a capital C) as the m/s in the center mostly does the trick, certainly on smaller ensembles - oh, and i almost always use dedicated ambis, preferably at some distance and in very wide a/b, to get largely uncorrelated ambient sound...

...so in effect, the entire rig gives me the option of mixing in 5.1 without any additional efforts, except that i'm then using either a double m/s or ambinsonic mic in the center position.]
Old 21st July 2021
  #16
Here for the gear
 
I'm very appreciate the TF's array give me the very good sound on Beethoven Symphony.
Attached Thumbnails
Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-img_20200119_180224.jpg  
Old 21st July 2021 | Show parent
  #17
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhu Shijia ➡️
(...) the TF's array give me the very good sound (...)
no doubt about it!

nice looking venue btw: what is the audience capacity?

what imo all arrays have in common is that they can pick up relatively large/wide ensembles, that they give us some options while mixing and that they are efficient in the sense that one does not need to spend endless time for setup.
Old 21st July 2021 | Show parent
  #18
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
no doubt about it!

nice looking venue btw: what is the audience capacity?

what imo all arrays have in common is that they can pick up relatively large/wide ensembles, that they give us some options while mixing and that they are efficient in the sense that one does not need to spend endless time for setup.
The audience capacity are 1508, Ningbo Grand Theatre,acoustic designed by France.
Old 21st July 2021 | Show parent
  #19
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhu Shijia ➡️
I'm very appreciate the TF's array give me the very good sound on Beethoven Symphony.
Interesting use of those ‘elbows’ to support the cardioid pair…I’m guessing it might be difficult to set their distance and angle with much precision?
Old 21st July 2021 | Show parent
  #20
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Interesting use of those ‘elbows’ to support the cardioid pair…I’m guessing it might be difficult to set their distance and angle with much precision?
You are right! It coast a lot of time to adjust.
Old 21st July 2021
  #21
Gear Maniac
 
We all know TF is no stooge - I assumed what he meant was a wide shelf boost ending at +2dB at 20Hz; starting a couple of octaves above that. It also may have been a typo, and he meant 200Hz - but the idea is that a subtle low EQ of the cards can smooth their brittleness quite a bit. I've found myself that with cards well beyond 3', a bit of bass boost is more effective than EQing the brightness down.
Old 10th August 2021
  #22
Gear Maniac
 
Simmosonic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pickett ➡️
I wasn't sure of the angles of the microphones - is the middle pair 110º and the end pair 45º?

omni's left and right at 67cm
cardioid at 47 cm

using a pair of DPA 4006 and 4011

specifically if you look here the angle of the middle pair looks larger than the 45º I've read on a few GS threads

https://youtu.be/8uCcFIyJJ-w?t=2024

Thanks for your help
This might be helpful. He describes it here, as it was at the time of the interview:

https://www.audiotechnology.com/feat...eo-masterclass
Old 10th August 2021
  #23
Gear Maniac
 
So, the tidy answer to the original question is - you got the spacings right (omnis 27", cards 16"), but both pairs are at 90 degrees.

I guess you could describe the middle pair as 'Wide NOS'. The wider spacing produces localization that more closely matches that of the 27" omnis.
Old 11th August 2021 | Show parent
  #24
Lives for gear
 
wildplum's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
he's been much more consistent about the outer omnis being at ~67cm, and angled 90 degrees.
I am not so sue about this (omnis angled 90 degrees).
Here's a direct quote from him:
"I have been having more success (with modern mic types) using a four-mic phased array on a wide stereo bar - two omnis at about 66cm (26-26.38") or 67cm, angled out, then two subcardioids inside the omnis at about 46cm (18.5")  or 47cm overall spacing, again angled out. I balance one pair against the other pair and usually end up with one of the pair dominating by 6dB."

Seems at least sometimes has both the omns and the subs "angled out".
Old 11th August 2021 | Show parent
  #25
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmosonic ➡️
This might be helpful. He describes it here, as it was at the time of the interview:

https://www.audiotechnology.com/feat...eo-masterclass
TF mentioned in this interview with you that the guy from BBC Wales (and also Onno Scholze from Phillips) used a modified TF 4 mic array, with 4 omnis. Presumably you'd still get the forward gain, but it's hard to see how they wouldn't sound too 'washy' and over-ambient...compared with one of the pairs being cardioid/wide-card ?

Interesting idea though ....I could imagine them working if the central omni pair had APE spheres on, to lend a bit of directionality higher up the frequency spectrum ?

Nice to read his praise for the Rode NT-6 in this capacity, and his notice of them holding up well against comparison with 'the usual suspects'

Also in the above interview, TF mentions using Reflexion type barriers to screen out some of the rear pickup from his 'other Faulkner phased array'....an 8" spaced pair of ribbons, used to reduce an over-reverberant acoustic via the nulls of the mics.

"About five years ago somebody wanted me to go and record four hands piano, Schubert’s Three Marches Militaires, in a small chapel near Bordeaux. Lovely job to have, and lovely wine around there, but the chapel’s reverb was about 4.8s long without an audience in the room. With four hands on a piano playing Three Marches Militaires it just sounded ridiculous; like I’d got a reverb for Christmas and was putting it on everything! I ended up using a pair of ribbons, and found a local recording studio that lent me some of those semi-circular things to place behind microphones for getting rid of the room sound if you’re recording in a bedroom or similar. It looked bizarre but it worked, and it sounded lovely"


Here's what they look like: https://djcity.com.au/product/se-ele...CABEgLMVfD_BwE

However those barriers are a little large and visually intrusive, and I'm wondering if anyone has used the more typical (and considerably smaller) orchestral players' acoustic shields behind a fig 8 mic, like a mini-gobo, to achieve similar screening reduction ?

This is the sort of product I'm thinking of: https://goodear.com.au/goodear/acoustics/orchestras/

You could probably DIY a version of quite light weight, using an aluminium or plastic curved base, and then cover it with foam and fabric, attaching it behind the mic with an L bracket.

Last edited by studer58; 11th August 2021 at 06:49 AM..
Old 11th August 2021 | Show parent
  #26
Lives for gear
 
king2070lplaya's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildplum ➡️
I am not so sue about this (omnis angled 90 degrees).
Here's a direct quote from him:
"I have been having more success (with modern mic types) using a four-mic phased array on a wide stereo bar - two omnis at about 66cm (26-26.38") or 67cm, angled out, then two subcardioids inside the omnis at about 46cm (18.5")  or 47cm overall spacing, again angled out. I balance one pair against the other pair and usually end up with one of the pair dominating by 6dB."

Seems at least sometimes has both the omns and the subs "angled out".
I used to have some good photos of Tony's setups with both Rode NT6's and Schoeps w/ active cables, and for both setups they seemed to be 90 deg on both pairs, maybe a little more splayed out on the omnis. FWIW
Old 11th August 2021
  #27
Gear Maniac
 
Indeed, in interviews and posts TF has many times referred to the angles of both pairs as simply: 'angled out', and that spacings and angles should be thought of as "starting points". He's in general not a very dogmatic fellow.

But in the many photos I've seen of his use of the array, both pairs are angled the same, and has specified his preferred inner pair are cards or sub-cards at 46-47cm apart and angled 90 degrees.
Old 11th August 2021 | Show parent
  #28
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
Indeed, in interviews and posts TF has many times referred to the angles of both pairs as simply: 'angled out', and that spacings and angles should be thought of as "starting points". He's in general not a very dogmatic fellow.

But in the many photos I've seen of his use of the array, both pairs are angled the same, and has specified his preferred inner pair are cards or sub-cards at 46-47cm apart and angled 90 degrees.
As Tony mentioned in his interview with Greg (‘Simmosonic’) Simmons linked above…. post no.22 (which is essentially the transcript of the Vimeo vid below…)

TF: “The four-way phased array… all mounted on a wide stereo bar, 66.7cm apart for the omnis on the outside with a pair of cardioids in between.

GS: How do you configure the cardioids?

TF: I started out with ORTF and subsequently NOS, but those spacings didn’t work in the array because I wanted it to deliver ‘reach’. Keeping the angle between the mics at 90°, as for NOS, I tried dividing my 66.7cm omni spacing by the Golden Ratio number of 1.618 and arrived at 41.2cm, and there it has stuck !”

You can see Tony F chatting about it with Greg here: https://vimeo.c om/183269103

I wonder if we’ll ever see a production model of the Rode TFM50 tube omni prototypes that TF was using for this Beethoven 9th/Sydney Opera House recording, around 5 years ago….?

Last edited by studer58; 11th August 2021 at 10:42 AM..
Old 11th August 2021 | Show parent
  #29
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
TF mentioned in this interview with you that the guy from BBC Wales (and also Onno Scholze from Phillips) used a modified TF 4 mic array, with 4 omnis. Presumably you'd still get the forward gain, but it's hard to see how they wouldn't sound too 'washy' and over-ambient...compared with one of the pairs being cardioid/wide-card ?

Interesting idea though ....I could imagine them working if the central omni pair had APE spheres on, to lend a bit of directionality higher up the frequency spectrum ?

Nice to read his praise for the Rode NT-6 in this capacity, and his notice of them holding up well against comparison with 'the usual suspects'

Also in the above interview, TF mentions using Reflexion type barriers to screen out some of the rear pickup from his 'other Faulkner phased array'....an 8" spaced pair of ribbons, used to reduce an over-reverberant acoustic via the nulls of the mics.

"About five years ago somebody wanted me to go and record four hands piano, Schubert’s Three Marches Militaires, in a small chapel near Bordeaux. Lovely job to have, and lovely wine around there, but the chapel’s reverb was about 4.8s long without an audience in the room. With four hands on a piano playing Three Marches Militaires it just sounded ridiculous; like I’d got a reverb for Christmas and was putting it on everything! I ended up using a pair of ribbons, and found a local recording studio that lent me some of those semi-circular things to place behind microphones for getting rid of the room sound if you’re recording in a bedroom or similar. It looked bizarre but it worked, and it sounded lovely"


Here's what they look like: https://djcity.com.au/product/se-ele...CABEgLMVfD_BwE

However those barriers are a little large and visually intrusive, and I'm wondering if anyone has used the more typical (and considerably smaller) orchestral players' acoustic shields behind a fig 8 mic, like a mini-gobo, to achieve similar screening reduction ?

This is the sort of product I'm thinking of: https://goodear.com.au/goodear/acoustics/orchestras/

You could probably DIY a version of quite light weight, using an aluminium or plastic curved base, and then cover it with foam and fabric, attaching it behind the mic with an L bracket.
Next time, Let me try this all omni TF array with APE. I will record Bartok Concerto for Orchestra at the end of August in Ningbo Symphony Orchestra.
Attached Thumbnails
Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-wei-xin-tu-pian-_20210811211431.png  
Old 11th August 2021 | Show parent
  #30
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhu Shijia ➡️
Next time, Let me try this all omni TF array with APE. I will record Bartok Concerto for Orchestra at the end of August in Ningbo Symphony Orchestra.
TF mentioned in his Greg Simmons interview that both the BBC Wales and Onno Scholze 4 omni mic versions had different spacing dimensions than his own 4 mic (omni/cardioid) array….it could be helpful to find out what those variations were ?
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