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Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #61
Gear Maniac
 
Interesting, yes?

A bit off- topic, but has anyone tried the '4-mic' tree that Wilkie, Dunkerley and others used in the later years, instead of the 3-mic 'T' plus flanks ('5-mic tree') - or even just the center pair, spaced 3' and panned in a bit to fill the hole on the middle? Though they refer to it as a '4-mic tree', it's really just a spaced pair with flanks. It's interesting that TF prefers 27" with no panning vs 3' panned in a bit. I would imagine he's willing sacrifice a small amount of extra time-delay width, for a complete lack of combing.

I tried it on a choir many years ago, but I idiotically filled the hole, not by panning L/R in slightly, but by summing the two on a separate mixer channel, then mixing this (massively comb-filtered) mono to the center. Need I even describe what it sounded like? Dumbell !!
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #62
Lives for gear
 
king2070lplaya's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
Interesting, yes?

A bit off- topic, but has anyone tried the '4-mic' tree that Wilkie, Dunkerley and others used in the later years, instead of the 3-mic 'T' plus flanks ('5-mic tree') - or even just the center pair, spaced 3' and panned in a bit to fill the hole on the middle? Though they refer to it as a '4-mic tree', it's really just a spaced pair with flanks. It's interesting that TF prefers 27" with no panning vs 3' panned in a bit. I would imagine he's willing sacrifice a small amount of extra time-delay width, for a complete lack of combing.

I tried it on a choir many years ago, but I idiotically filled the hole, not by panning L/R in slightly, but by summing the two on a separate mixer channel, then mixing this (massively comb-filtered) mono to the center. Need I even describe what it sounded like? Dumbell !!
I’ve used the 4 mic tree a good bit, and I like the sound of it, though it can be tricky to get just right. I posted a track I used it for in the Decca book thread, “Shadow Light” from the New Orchestra of Washington’s “Bespoke” CD.

I think JD’s output of orchestral recordings from around the time of Wilkie’s retirement in ‘80 through his EMI discs with Argerich and Dutoit speak to the efficacy of the technique in his hands, which was used for most of those recordings. Simon Eadon also used that technique for much of his orchestral oeuvre from the 90’s until his recent retirement, also masterfully operated.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #63
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
I tried it on a choir many years ago, but I idiotically filled the hole, not by panning L/R in slightly, but by summing the two on a separate mixer channel, then mixing this (massively comb-filtered) mono to the center. Need I even describe what it sounded like? Dumbell !!
Given the situation described, you might have obtained a better (but not optimal) result by replacing the centre pair with a single mic, to give an equi-spaced trio, as used in previous decades by Mercury (Wilma Cozart Fine), RCA and others. This method works well for wind orchestras….not sure about choral…though you can tend to get 3 pools of sound rather than a ‘coherent front line with depth’ At the least you would have avoided the comb-filtered mono centre
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #64
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Without naming the array as it is typically referred to here, the new Decca Classical Recording Techniques book describes the following (in the section related to ‘String Quartet In Concert’):

“ Where it is not possible to use an arrangement like the one in Figure 12.3, mounting all four microphones on a single wide bar would be a workable compromise. The omnis will be at the outer end of the bar at 60–70 cm (2′ to 2′4″) apart, with the ORTF-type pair in between them. The rig should be placed to get the best sound from the omni pair, even though this will place the ORTF pair a bit too close to the players. The width of the image on this pair will now be a little wider than before (because it is closer and the players take up more of its stereo recording angle). They could be angled a little further inwards to compensate”

‘ORTF-type’, as a description, of course opens the door to all of the near coincident directional mic creations this thread and others have been examining
I've seen 4-on-a-bar setups pop up in plenty of other contexts 'over the pond' as well, including vocal ensembles; seem to recall something like this on a Kings Singers session done by Floating Earth, for live chamber music broadcasts at Wigmore Hall (BBC?) and also on Voces8 session work at Abbey Road. I don't think it's that unusual. If you have the channels, and a Manfrotto bar with enough clamps, why not. Options!
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #65
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Given the situation described, you might have obtained a better (but not optimal) result by replacing the centre pair with a single mic, to give an equi-spaced trio, as used in previous decades by Mercury (Wilma Cozart Fine), RCA and others. This method works well for wind orchestras….not sure about choral…though you can tend to get 3 pools of sound rather than a ‘coherent front line with depth’ At the least you would have avoided the comb-filtered mono centre
Wouldn't have been necessary - quite a small choir, only 12 voices. The balance/coverage was fine with just the spaced pair, just timbrally it was compromised by the combed center fill.

I do a great deal of listening on headphones; as great as the M3 approach sounds on speakers, I've never cared for it on 'phones. That's what I love about the 4-omni ONNO - works equally well for spkr and 'phones listening.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #66
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya ➡️
I’ve used the 4 mic tree a good bit, and I like the sound of it, though it can be tricky to get just right.
Can you please expand on that a bit -- what makes it tricky to get just right? Said another way, what adjustments are you making to the array to get it to be just right?
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #67
Gear Maniac
 
Always wondered that about mpdonahue's similar comments about the 4-mic 'Onno bar' - never explains what's difficult about 'getting it right'.

Curious entry in this publication (page 17): http://www.medien.ifi.lmu.de/fileadm...-page-7-14.pdf

'OHNO' ?
Attached Thumbnails
Need some help with the 4 Microphone "Faulkner" Array-ohno.png  
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #68
Lives for gear
 
king2070lplaya's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson ➡️
Can you please expand on that a bit -- what makes it tricky to get just right? Said another way, what adjustments are you making to the array to get it to be just right?
There’s more variables than a typical “AB-and-Outriggers” setup, in that all 4 mics must be balanced perfectly to create the cohesive, powerful, but artificial stereo image . And because you don’t start with a bonafide stereo pair in the middle to build the image on, it’s really easy to make the sound of the ensemble fall apart, becoming too narrow and cluttered, too wide and indistinct, etc. in a way that typically won’t happen when you have a hard-panned pair of mics as the basis of your sound. Outriggers too wide? Middle pair too narrow, or too far back from the front of the ensemble? All these variables can cause the image to fall apart.

My best success was with following JD’s specs for placement and panning, and then tuning the width by ear. I also don’t love the sound when using this technique on other large ensembles (non-orchestral choir, concert band), I find it’s something of a specialized technique for creating a beautiful string sound, which blends nicely with spots placed in the Decca way.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #69
Gear Maniac
 
I'm not aware of Dunkerley having used the Onno 4-mic (?). Are you referring to the '4-mic tree': 3' inner pair panned in a bit, plus outriggers? This is quite a different animal than the Onno bar.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #70
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king2070lplaya's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
I'm not aware of Dunkerley having used the Onno 4-mic (?). Are you referring to the '4-mic tree': 3' inner pair panned in a bit, plus outriggers? This is quite a different animal than the Onno bar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
Interesting, yes?

A bit off- topic, but has anyone tried the '4-mic' tree that Wilkie, Dunkerley and others used in the later years, instead of the 3-mic 'T' plus flanks ('5-mic tree') - or even just the center pair, spaced 3' and panned in a bit to fill the hole on the middle? Though they refer to it as a '4-mic tree', it's really just a spaced pair with flanks. It's interesting that TF prefers 27" with no panning vs 3' panned in a bit. I would imagine he's willing sacrifice a small amount of extra time-delay width, for a complete lack of combing.

I tried it on a choir many years ago, but I idiotically filled the hole, not by panning L/R in slightly, but by summing the two on a separate mixer channel, then mixing this (massively comb-filtered) mono to the center. Need I even describe what it sounded like? Dumbell !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson ➡️
Can you please expand on that a bit -- what makes it tricky to get just right? Said another way, what adjustments are you making to the array to get it to be just right?


All of my responses To the above query’s were regarding the 4 mic Decca Tree setup.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #71
Gear Maniac
 
Roger !

My fault for steering this off-topic.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #72
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
It might interest some here that the Faulkner 4 mic array is available as a lightweight 3D printed bar (PAM = Phased Array Mount) with integral mic holders (so you'll be shock mounting the whole bar at the central cylindrical member joint, with something like a Shure donut....or, in the case of the Sennheiser bar, the Rycote INV-7HG mkIII)


It's available for the Line Audio, MKH8020/8040 and Schoeps CMC family (with active cables) .... but since the mic clamps are flexible 3D print plastic, I doubt you'd have problems using any of the 'typical suspects' SD mics ?

As the mfr description outlines, some user assembly is required, to facilitate economical shipping....but it's low level/difficulty assembly, epoxy glue and finishing paint mostly.

The reason it doesn't appear on a general search of the SRS product page is that it's a low volume, built to order item.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/YF...i=user-profile
https://www.shapeways.com/product/AP...i=user-profile
https://www.shapeways.com/product/8V...i=user-profile

Last edited by studer58; 1 week ago at 09:26 AM..
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #73
Gear Maniac
 
ronmac's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I have a couple of the SRS mounts for XY and ORTF and find them excellent pieces of kit to ease quick, repeatable setups.

I would expect that the 4 mic array solution to be similar in construction and utility. Where it falls short, imo, is not allowing flexibility in spacing mics, often required for "focusing" in a variety of scenarios.

Tony F often adds the caveat "it is a good starting point" when describing the positioning and spacing of the mic array.

For more flexibility in spacing I have been using the 15mm rod components commonly used in camera world, along with a variety of clamps that are designed to offer 360 degree positioning.

https://www.smallrig.com/smallrig-ro...-pcs-1659.html

https://www.smallrig.com/clamp-mount...lamp-1124.html

https://www.smallrig.com/smallrig-si...block-860.html
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #74
Here for the gear
 
I use smallrig gear and have used clamps like the smallrig. The rubber face pad is glued to the arms and loosens over time, and sags and twists on the rod.

I have also used the smallrig rod clamps, and those hold tight and stay as positioned.
Old 1 day ago
  #75
Gear Head
 
I am actually using this method to record a symphony and a piano concerto tomorrow - I was wondering what the panning should be ? is everything hard?

I have 6 mics and only two stands at this point

thinking a decca tail with DPA 4015

then the 4 mic array 4006's and 4011
Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #76
Lives for gear
 
king2070lplaya's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pickett ➡️
I am actually using this method to record a symphony and a piano concerto tomorrow - I was wondering what the panning should be ? is everything hard?

I have 6 mics and only two stands at this point

thinking a decca tail with DPA 4015

then the 4 mic array 4006's and 4011
All mics hard L and R.

That setup should work well for you!
Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #77
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya ➡️
All mics hard L and R.

That setup should work well for you!
thanks. what about the decca tail pair?
Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #78
Lives for gear
 
king2070lplaya's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pickett ➡️
thanks. what about the decca tail pair?
Those too! L and R.
Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #79
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pickett ➡️
thanks. what about the decca tail pair?
In the case of piano concerto with symphony orchestra, listen to the 'space' the piano occupies within the stereo image produced by your 4 mic array, then pan the tail mics appropriately to match that same piano image size.
You don't want the tail pair image 'fighting against' that created by the mains....but you may also get a slightly too wide and diffuse piano image from the mains (and also a little off centre....inexplicably!) so the tail pair can act to give the piano contextually correct image presence in the final mix....and this might end up being a little more centred also. Your ears will guide you...the end goal being a credible, satisfying image of all components
Old 9 hours ago | Show parent
  #80
Gear Maniac
 
Just found another interesting quote by TF on the R/E/P Comminity, about the specific mics he prefers, in the context of what comes close the sound of his M50 pair when their use is not practical:

"For these concerts I have been using a 27" carbon fibre bar with a foursome of two subcardioids (Schoeps CCM21 or Neumann KM183) flanked by two omnis (Schoeps CCM2h or Neumann KM130). The overall colour with the omnis at -6dB in the mix is not so different from the M50s (although a bit drier), and the bass extension with the CCM2h omnis is great."

I love how he identifies himself on that forum as 'Newbie'.
Old 8 hours ago | Show parent
  #81
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
Just found another interesting quote by TF on the R/E/P Comminity, about the specific mics he prefers, in the context of what comes close the sound of his M50 pair when their use is not practical:

"For these concerts I have been using a 27" carbon fibre bar with a foursome of two subcardioids (Schoeps CCM21 or Neumann KM183) flanked by two omnis (Schoeps CCM2h or Neumann KM130). The overall colour with the omnis at -6dB in the mix is not so different from the M50s (although a bit drier), and the bass extension with the CCM2h omnis is great."

I love how he identifies himself on that forum as 'Newbie'.
The KM183 is conventional omni...same for KM130. KM100 body with AK43 capsule fits the bill for sub cardioid. Both KM130 and KM183 have HF bump rises in the 8-10k region
Old 8 hours ago | Show parent
  #82
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
The KM183 is conventional omni...same for KM130. KM130 with AK43 capsule fits the bill for sub cardioid.
Thanks for catching that - typo on my part; he actually said KM143, which they call 'wide cardioid'.
Old 8 hours ago | Show parent
  #83
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I get clearer results with 4 on a bar if I high pass the wide-cardioids and low pass the omnis at about 100-120 Hz. You get each pair contributing within its best performance zone ....while they also 'get out of each other's way' in terms of unnecessary overlap....maybe due to less comb filtering between the pairs ? I don't find I particularly require the 'forward combined gain' aspect of running the 2 pairs together 'full range'...gain being non-problematic with modern mic preamps
Old 7 hours ago | Show parent
  #84
Gear Maniac
 
I've thought of trying that myself; good to hear from someone who has.

The forward gain sure helps in less than ideal halls, though, especially when I've gone the other direction with middle pair, and used hypers.

When TF refers to 'forward gain', he's not talking about overall gain, but that sounds in front of the array are picked up at a higher level than sounds to the sides, because in front they arrive at the mics at much the same time, whereas sounds to the side are staggered in time arrival; they don't 'add up'.
Old 5 hours ago
  #85
Gear Head
 
ok so ta-da here is my recording

I believe it is far from a great one but its decent for my first try

this is just the faulkner array 4 mics 4011 and 4006 (gold cap)
into my zoom

open to notes and suggestions - i had limited time and really couldnt hear anything in my headphones cuz the orchestra was so loud and i only had 25 feet of xlr

i think i could have got closer (or higher?) - orchestra could be louder and cleearer

https://hollywoodscoring.box.com/s/8...y7m1ag5a4kdkya

in general it was a confusing experience - not as clear cut as i might have thought
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