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Onno Pipe (4-mic) w/APEs?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1
Onno Pipe (4-mic) w/APEs?

Anyone tried the Onno 4-mic (2 pairs, one at 12", the other 10', on same bar) with APEs on all four mics?

I just tried it and was very pleased - seems to combine the detail and 'reach' of the tree, with the better imaging of the Onno. To my ears, on orchestra, the 4-mic array has almost binaural-like imaging on headphones, and great spaciousness and envelopment on speakers.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #2
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
Anyone tried the Onno 4-mic (2 pairs, one at 12", the other 10', on same bar) with APEs on all four mics?

I just tried it and was very pleased - seems to combine the detail and 'reach' of the tree, with the better imaging of the Onno. To my ears, on orchestra, the 4-mic array has almost binaural-like imaging on headphones, and great spaciousness and envelopment on speakers.
Since you've provided so few details about microphone type, pattern, brand etc perhaps you could use this calculator linked below to determine whether the SRA of both pairs provide complementary imaging with one another ...and supply the missing mic information as above....so that people here are equipped to answer your opening question (on an apples with apples basis) ? How do you support a 10' (feet ?) bar (at what height ?) in the air ...

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/HejiaE.htm
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3
I thought most here were familiar with the 'Onno Pipe', or 'Onno Bar',that Onno Scholze used on many of his Phillips recordings - there are a couple of threads that talk about it. m donahughe uses/has used it.

It was four DPA 4006 on a single bar with the center L/R pair 12" apart, and the outer pair 10' apart, all angled about 90 degrees and panned hard left/right. Usually one pair or the other dominates; would imagine the middle pair most of the time, that's what I did.

I tried it w/40mm APEs on a violin concerto rehearsal, and didn't need a spot on the violin.

I didn't specify pattern because one only uses APEs on omnis.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #4
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Thanks for the additional detail....I'm not sure the traditional Michael Williams or Eberhard S tables are applicable for SRA when APE's are used, as there would likely be a frequency selective skewing of perceived directionality ....so you'd set the distances and spacings empirically for best matching between pair images ...or simply trust Onno, since he put the ground work in decades ago.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #5
Lives for gear
 
king2070lplaya's Avatar
I’m a big fan of many recordings made w traditional ONNO, though I’ve never tried it myself. Would love to hear this adaptation sometime.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #6
Gear Head
 
Wavefront's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
Anyone tried the Onno 4-mic (2 pairs, one at 12", the other 10', on same bar) with APEs on all four mics?

I just tried it and was very pleased - seems to combine the detail and 'reach' of the tree, with the better imaging of the Onno.
I have been curious to try this technique at some point, or possibly with an alternate center pair, but taking the overall approach of a single stand which also supports much more widely spaced outer microphones in a similar way.

I remember some details about various carbon fibre tubing etc. from another "Onno thread" -- Might I inquire what stand/bar/support approach you took when trying it recently?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #7
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mpdonahue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
I thought most here were familiar with the 'Onno Pipe', or 'Onno Bar',that Onno Scholze used on many of his Phillips recordings - there are a couple of threads that talk about it. m donahughe uses/has used it.

It was four DPA 4006 on a single bar with the center L/R pair 12" apart, and the outer pair 10' apart, all angled about 90 degrees and panned hard left/right. Usually one pair or the other dominates; would imagine the middle pair most of the time, that's what I did.

I tried it w/40mm APEs on a violin concerto rehearsal, and didn't need a spot on the violin.

I didn't specify pattern because one only uses APEs on omnis.
I suspect that 12" apart for the center pair is a little wide. The trick here is that Onno always had the ends of the XLR touching each other, with a 90 angle between the mics.
99% of the time, silver grids and no balls. On occasion, he would use black grids, but this made it very hard to get the correct placement and always necessitated a more height. The real trick to this array is finding the correct placement. 6" front to back can make a huge difference on the precision of the image. I always liken it to pulling focus on a camera with a fixed lens. when it is right, it snaps into focus.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8
Lives for gear
 
surflounge's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
OHNO Bar
Old 4 weeks ago
  #9
I used three telescoping pcs of carbon fibre tube from Tap Plastics, mounted on a heavy duty light stand.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #10
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king2070lplaya's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
I used three telescoping pcs of carbon fibre tube from Tap Plastics, mounted on a heavy duty light stand.
, can you share a link to what product you’re using? I’m trying to put together a carbon fiber tree, would like to know what’s available in terms of collapsible or threaded CF.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #11
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tourtelot's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I don't know if I'd use carbon fiber for a tree (I use it for my home-made low-profile "Schoeps tubes") but I do know that a 1 1/2" long 3/8-16 Socket Set Screw Cup Point "set-screw" will fit perfectly inside this CF tubing. I glue them in with two-part epoxy and they have shown no signs of coming lose.

Here's the link for the CF tube:

https://www.clearwatercomposites.com...on-fiber-tube/

D.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #12
They are just generic carbon fibre tubes - Tap Plastics sells them in various lengths and diameters. The outer tubes are the next size smaller dia. than the center; they're nested about a foot and a half into the center one. The center tube's been pinched slightly with pliers to create a friction fit with the outer ones (low tech!). Used an electrical conduit coupler with a horizontal hole drilled through it, to attach the tubes to the stand.

I doubt carbon fibre would take threads - it's very splintery, like fiberglass.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #13
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Shown before, but this is an example of a suspended 7/8" CF tubing surround array from tourelot's clearwatercomposits.com wide range of products.

Tom
Attached Thumbnails
Onno Pipe (4-mic) w/APEs?-pasadena_array1.jpg   Onno Pipe (4-mic) w/APEs?-pasadena_array2.jpg  
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #14
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya ➡️
, can you share a link to what product you’re using? I’m trying to put together a carbon fiber tree, would like to know what’s available in terms of collapsible or threaded CF.
The Rode Micro Boom Pole Pro has male and female metal ferrule 3/8" threads on each sub-segment's end, so (even if you decide to cut, extend, telescope/nest them), the threading part is already taken care of ! Just slide or slice off the foam handgrips...and quite reasonably priced, looks elegant rather than DIY...

https://youtu.be/JXdF_2KjNU0 <<<. the second item shown here...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1Fc2hQENOCg

Last edited by studer58; 4 weeks ago at 04:50 AM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #15
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
This is my main system for recent years.
Mics are Sanken CO100k's.
Placement is critical.
Sounds great.

However the picture below shows the very last time I used this 3 meters long carbon fiber pipe. For now side mics sits on separate stands.
It was not very stable and easy/fast to mount.

Norm
Attached Thumbnails
Onno Pipe (4-mic) w/APEs?-screen-shot-2021-07-01-09.02.21.jpg  

Last edited by [email protected]; 4 weeks ago at 07:36 AM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #16
I guess I should have re-phrased the question that was the point of my original post:

"Raise you're hand if you've tried the 4-mic Onno array with APEs on all 4 mics."

If so, share your reactions. If not, have you a well reasoned technical explanation of why this would not be recommended?

For those emphasizing how critical positioning is with this array, have you a well reasoned explanation why that would be any more the case with this array than any other omni array? It's been my experience that positioning is critical with any omni array - Decca Tree, M3, AB, etc.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #17
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
i did (get to try pretty much any of the more well-known techniques)...

...but neither liked onno any better than other approaches nor ape's (in general i have to admit) - at least not in those halls i got to try it which were more on the reverberant side though.

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 3 weeks ago at 11:10 PM.. Reason: deleted some off-topic comment
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #18
dtf
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
I guess I should have re-phrased the question that was the point of my original post:

"Raise you're hand if you've tried the 4-mic Onno array with APEs on all 4 mics."

If so, share your reactions. If not, have you a well reasoned technical explanation of why this would not be recommended?

For those emphasizing how critical positioning is with this array, have you a well reasoned explanation why that would be any more the case with this array than any other omni array? It's been my experience that positioning is critical with any omni array - Decca Tree, M3, AB, etc.
Hi,

I have used the "OHNO bar" extensively over the past 20 years on orchestras, chamber music ensembles and solo instruments.

I have had the best results without the APEs but did use them (50mm) rather often on the middle pair when I needed more reach towards the rear of e.g. an orchestra with choir. In such situations, the mics remained 90 deg but looked straight ahead whilst the outer mics might have looked down into the strings.

I only remember Onno telling me once that he used APEs on all mics. If I am not mistaken, it was during the recording of Gardiner's Symphonie Fantastique which involved a lot of TV-cameras and using the APEs he was able to hang his mains a bit higher than usually.

As Mark pointed out, the system relies on a lot of experience and I have only recently started feeling confident on how to use it...

Interesting, perhaps, is that even though it is intended as 4 mics on a straight line and all at the same height, the system does lend itself quite well to changes - moving the middle pair a bit to the front or lowering it, for example, can help a lot with smaller ensembles.

Hope that was interesting.

Dirk
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #19
dtf
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] ➡️
This is my main system for recent years.
Mics are Sanken CO100k's.
Placement is critical.
Sounds great.

However the picture below shows the very last time I used this 3 meters long carbon fiber pipe. For now side mics sits on separate stands.
It was not very stable and easy/fast to mount.

Norm
Hi Norm,

Thanks for the picture, I built a similar setup/mount and it was usually terrifying as it was super shakey and flimsy but somehow nobody got killed... :-)

I did make a really nice solution for hanging which was made up from 3 PVC pipes (thick one in the middle, two thinner ones on each side).

I always use 3 large stands with booms during sessions, but live it is a tricky system to set up... attached is a picture from a session in Versailles, earlier this month.

Best,
Dirk
Attached Thumbnails
Onno Pipe (4-mic) w/APEs?-ohno_versailles.jpg  
Old 3 weeks ago
  #20
@ dtf - Thanks, that's what I was looking for. The angling towards the back w/APE makes perfect sense.

What were you recording in Versailles?
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #21
dtf
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
@ dtf What were you recording in Versailles?
We recorded a baroque opera with an orchestra that mainly consisted of an enlarged continuo section - quite exciting!

The interesting thing about that stage is that the floor has an elastic property (it must have something to do with Louis IVX's love for dance), so my 3 large stands with booms kept swinging in the beat of walking musicians... every morning, I was afraid to walk into the theatre and find our mics on the floor, but the stands were sturdy enough (thank you K&M).

All the best,
Dirk
Old 3 weeks ago
  #22
Yikes !!
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #23
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtf ➡️
Louis IVX's
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