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Orchestra/choral records done with omni stereopair with APEs only
Old 26th May 2021
  #31
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
If the mics are 1.7m apart and the bass comes completely from one side of the hall, the cancelling frequency between the two mics would have been around 100Hz, not 63Hz.

So, where does the cancellation come from, if there is one? I didn't investigate it myself.
Old 27th May 2021 | Show parent
  #32
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didier.brest's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest ➡️
Indeed there is a strong 63 Hz tone in the time interval of your screenshot (see attached spectrum plot) with perfect phase opposition between L and R channels. Too perfect for being acoustic: see attached screenshot showing the stereo track and below the sum of its left and right channels.
Not perfect phase opposition at all. The vertical scales in my previous screenshot were not the same for the stereo track and the mono track...

Here attached screenshot with the same scale.
Attached Thumbnails
Orchestra/choral records done with omni stereopair with APEs only-capture-2.jpg  
Old 27th May 2021 | Show parent
  #33
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo ➡️
If the mics are 1.7m apart and the bass comes completely from one side of the hall, the cancelling frequency between the two mics would have been around 100Hz, not 63Hz.

So, where does the cancellation come from, if there is one? I didn't investigate it myself.
Yes, I agree with you. Orgeltonmeister told us the AB was 1.7m an myself I found a delay of 5ms, so just a big phase-shift not a real phase opposition, so no real cancel in mono, but at least a big mitigation (see the 3rd track, same vertical zoom than the two first tracks (original file)) and this phased sound in stereo on headphones.

And I agree with Orgeltonmeister that it's not a real problem on speakers.
Attached Thumbnails
Orchestra/choral records done with omni stereopair with APEs only-capture-d-ecran-2021-05-27-113003.png   Orchestra/choral records done with omni stereopair with APEs only-capture-d-ecran-2021-05-27-120801.jpg  
Old 27th May 2021 | Show parent
  #34
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DAH's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm ➡️
Yes, I agree with you. Orgeltonmeister told us the AB was 1.7m an myself I found a delay of 5ms, so just a big phase-shift not a real phase opposition, so no real cancel in mono, but at least a big mitigation (see the 3rd track, same vertical zoom than the two first tracks (original file)) and this phased sound in stereo on headphones.

And I agree with Orgeltonmeister that it's not a real problem on speakers.
I agree in the headphones it SOUNDS a bit phasey in the center.
Old 27th May 2021 | Show parent
  #35
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didier.brest's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Maths can help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm ➡️
so just a big phase-shift not a real phase opposition, so no real cancel in mono, but at least a big mitigation

The fft of the section starting at 21.7 s and ending at 22.1 s peaks at 62.3 Hz, where the phase advance of the R channel with respect to the left one is 1.99 rd = 114°, which corresponds to 1.74 m sound travel length. At this frequency and for this phase gap, mono summing of L and R channels would have +0.8 dB gain for equal L and R levels. No mitigation but about 5 dB loss with respect to in-phase summing. Attached copy of the Matlab command window for interested people, if any...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm ➡️
see the 3rd track, same vertical zoom than the two first tracks (original file))
Different from attached Audacity screenshot.
Attached Thumbnails
Orchestra/choral records done with omni stereopair with APEs only-capture-2.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: txt andante.txt (569 Bytes, 6 views)

Last edited by didier.brest; 27th May 2021 at 09:28 PM..
Old 28th May 2021
  #36
0VU
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
From 1985-1992, Denon recorded a set of Mahler Symphonies with Eliahu Inbal conducting Frankfurt Radio SO. It was mostly recorded with one pair of B+K 4000 series omnis.
Old 5th June 2021 | Show parent
  #37
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DAH's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I tried OSS-like 16-17 cm AB with a flat round pad used as a Jecklin disc - so far like the results more than APEs.
Seems like OSS is a relatively recent mic technique so I assume only new labels have material recorded using it. I heard Barry Diament uses it. Wonder if it is suitable as the main pair. And when DIYing the disc, what absorption parameters/materials to look for.

Last edited by DAH; 5th June 2021 at 08:15 PM..
Old 5th June 2021 | Show parent
  #38
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH ➡️
I tried OSS-like 16-17 cm AB with a flat round pad used as a Jecklin disc - so far like the results more than APEs.
Seems like OSS is a relatively recent mic technique so I assume only new labels have material recorded using it. I heard Barry Diament uses it. Wonder if it is suitable as the main pair. And when DIYing the disc, what absorption parameters/materials to look for.
Not really new... I have my MBHO Jecklin disk for 35 years !

Look here to learn how use it
http://www.josephson.com/tn5.html
Old 5th June 2021 | Show parent
  #39
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DAH's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm ➡️
Not really new... I have my MBHO Jecklin disk for 35 years !

Look here to learn how use it
http://www.josephson.com/tn5.html
That was about the first article I read while investigating the technique. 35 years is not much. By old I mean pre-digital era.
Old 6th June 2021 | Show parent
  #40
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH ➡️
That was about the first article I read while investigating the technique. 35 years is not much. By old I mean pre-digital era.
CD's were released 1983-4, so 35 years is effectively pre-digital...at least for home/hobbyist recordists who didn't get DAT tape recorders until late 80's or early 90's.
Old 6th June 2021 | Show parent
  #41
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DAH's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
CD's were released 1983-4, so 35 years is effectively pre-digital...at least for home/hobbyist recordists who didn't get DAT tape recorders until late 80's or early 90's.
CD is digital to me. I mean 60s-70s, before DDL in groove pitch computers and DMM vinyl.

Last edited by DAH; 6th June 2021 at 02:11 PM..
Old 6th June 2021 | Show parent
  #42
Already Blumlein mentioned small distance A-B with a baffle in between. As a reaction on the use of multi- microphone technique in the 1970s, Jecklin who worked at the Swiss Radio, started experimenting with OSS technique, that was probably in the mid seventees, maybe even earlier. I made my first Jecklin-type recording with my own-made disc somewhere arround 1981-2. I used a Revox A77 HS recorder, that was still the analogue era.
Old 6th June 2021 | Show parent
  #43
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
http://www.josephson.com/tn5.html
Old 6th June 2021 | Show parent
  #44
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DAH's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks all for the valuable input. Any practical/theoretical reasons to use parallel vs angled technique with Jecklin? Angled allows using just holders with no stereo bar, however I fear the focus on the sides might still create hollow center. Parallel seems to sound more even/balanced across the panorama.
Old 6th June 2021 | Show parent
  #45
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH ➡️
Thanks all for the valuable input. Any practical/theoretical reasons to use parallel vs angled technique with Jecklin? Angled allows using just holders with no stereo bar, however I fear the focus on the sides might still create hollow center. Parallel seems to sound more even/balanced across the panorama.
Which version of Jecklin Disc: old/historical with 16.5cm spacing; or new version with 36 cm spacing, and larger disc diameter ?

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/JecklinDisk.pdf

Don't you love 'standards'...there are so many of them to choose from
Old 6th June 2021 | Show parent
  #46
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DAH's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Which version of Jecklin Disc: old/historical with 16.5cm spacing; or new version with 36 cm spacing, and larger disc diameter ?

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/JecklinDisk.pdf

Don't you love 'standards'...there are so many of them to choose from
The old one - the picture seems to be more accurate and real at 15-17 cm
Old 6th June 2021 | Show parent
  #47
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH ➡️
The old one - the picture seems to be more accurate and real at 15-17 cm
`

I find the old one to be somewhat narrow in image width, and also unnaturally 'squeezed in' around the centre of the stereo picture.

If we can represent the ideally even spread of stereo width as follows, with underscore points A and E representing in the left and right speakers ie

A B C D E

Then the old, smaller spaced JDisc gives an image more like :

__ A B C D E __ ....but also with BCD closer to each other, in the centre, for the JDisc (small spacing)
Old 6th June 2021 | Show parent
  #48
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DAH's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
`

I find the old one to be somewhat narrow in image width, and also unnaturally 'squeezed in' around the centre of the stereo picture.

If we can represent the ideally even spread of stereo width as follows, with underscore points A and E representing in the left and right speakers ie

A B C D E

Then the old, smaller spaced JDisc gives an image more like :

__ A B C D E __ ....but also with BCD closer to each other, in the centre, for the JDisc (small spacing)
My point of reference is in headphones, the preference and opinion for from speakers might be different, have not tested yet. And the chances are, will not in the near future. Also, for me it is not about panorama distortion/compression, but rather the focus and coherence (close to) in centre.
Old 7th June 2021 | Show parent
  #49
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH ➡️
My point of reference is in headphones, the preference and opinion for from speakers might be different, have not tested yet. And the chances are, will not in the near future. Also, for me it is not about panorama distortion/compression, but rather the focus and coherence (close to) in centre.
Given those parameters and preferences, and for binaural headphone listening in general, original width Jecklin Disc recording is probably your ideal stereo array !
Old 7th June 2021 | Show parent
  #50
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mljung's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0VU ➡️
From 1985-1992, Denon recorded a set of Mahler Symphonies with Eliahu Inbal conducting Frankfurt Radio SO. It was mostly recorded with one pair of B+K 4000 series omnis.
...and the 4th symphony was made with two B&K 4006 (or 4007) omnis only - no spots ;-) - probably freefield grids.
Found it on YouTube (though not HD) - still sounds fine and spacious, huge dynamics. Some splash in the highs and congestion in some of the tuttis, probably not helped by the YouTube comresssed sound-format.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REH5bQjuVqU
::
Mads
Old 7th June 2021 | Show parent
  #51
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Given those parameters and preferences, and for binaural headphone listening in general, original width Jecklin Disc recording is probably your ideal stereo array !
Here a sample of what can be an orchestra recording with MBHO Jecklin disk and MBHO mics (old DAT recording...)
Attached Files

Orchestre dsk Jecklin.mp3 (2.16 MB, 439 views)

Old 7th June 2021 | Show parent
  #52
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mljung's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm ➡️
Here a sample of what can be an orchestra recording with MBHO Jecklin disk and MBHO mics (old DAT recording...)
Nice - pretty dry acoustics, but still alive (theater like). MBHO don't come up aften here - do you still have and use them (if they're yours)? What are your experience, compared to to other omnis?
::
Mads
Old 7th June 2021 | Show parent
  #53
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mljung ➡️
Nice - pretty dry acoustics, but still alive (theater like). MBHO don't come up aften here - do you still have and use them (if they're yours)? What are your experience, compared to to other omnis?
::
Mads
This was recorded in a little theater. I always have the Jecklin disk, but not the mics. Mine were old and the matching changed. I prefer the sound of my OM1.
But I know someone how released commercial CDs fot more than 30 years and most were recorded with MBHOs and some with the disk.
Old 7th June 2021 | Show parent
  #54
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mljung's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm ➡️
This was recorded in a little theater. I always have the Jecklin disk, but not the mics. Mine were old and the matching changed. I prefer the sound of my OM1.
But I know someone how released commercial CDs fot more than 30 years and most were recorded with MBHOs and some with the disk.
OM1 are nice little mics, very natural. I have other fine omnis, such as dpa 4006. Still OM1 have their own thing, a wonderful relaxed sound.
::
Mads
Old 4 weeks ago
  #55
Gear Nut
 
40mm APE omnis at 26-27", angled approx. 90 degrees - many, many great recordings by Tony Faulkner: good enough for him, good enough for me. Sounds equally well on speakers and headphones. Of course, he has the added benefit of using the magical M50s, but any good diffuse-field omni in 40mm APEs will get you most of the way there. A great many of Mark Aubort's recordings on Nonesuch were simple AB; wider-spaced and no APE (Schoeps 221b in omni mode). On larger orchestras, he often added outriggers.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #56
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DAH's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by k brown ➡️
40mm APE omnis at 26-27", angled approx. 90 degrees - many, many great recordings by Tony Faulkner: good enough for him, good enough for me. Sounds equally well on speakers and headphones. Of course, he has the added benefit of using the magical M50s, but any good diffuse-field omni in 40mm APEs will get you most of the way there. A great many of Mark Aubort's recordings on Nonesuch were simple AB; wider-spaced and no APE (Schoeps 221b in omni mode). On larger orchestras, he often added outriggers.
Did a quick test walking around with a smallish jembe-like tourist drum recorded with 40 mm APEs and 90 degrees at about 60-70 cm just to check the recording angle and the stereo distortion. Like the results, thanks for the info!
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