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Live broadcast audio standard level
Old 30th April 2021
  #1
Here for the gear
 
Live broadcast audio standard level

I have been doing studio recording for 20+ years. I have been doing live sound at a church for several years. But it recently went live broadcast. We just got some more money are are doing the broadcast right now. What is the standard level for output from audio for Church broadcast. I read online that mix peak should be -1db to -3db. Though specifically I really heard people saying -1db or -2db should be peak. Then -21.x ish should be LUFS. I am using 48k 32 bit float for the extra headroom. We are then sending this to the video computer through
ReaStream

https://www.reaper.fm/reaplugs/

Yeah, I know it is a free plugin but it works great and it was the best way we could find to send it to the computer. All the signal gets pushed down to 48k 24 anyways.
Old 30th April 2021
  #2
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Knowing it will be converted there are often changes to peak values, which I've only seen as high as 0.7dB. ReaStream is a perfectly valid tool for its purpose, just like OBS, which is also free.

However there may be further processing to the audio stream by the streaming platform itself. For example I found I had to set a max of -6dB for Vimeo or else it triggers their compressor which has unsuitable attack/release for music content, probably intended for dialog. You really have to evaluate the user end of the platform to assess what's going on.
Old 30th April 2021
  #3
Here for the gear
 
The first steam goes to Twitch, then it gets sent from Twitch to Facebook. Eventually it goes to youtube later in the day but not live. We are using OBS. We were going to go to V-mix. But OBS seem to be working perfectly fine. The video guy just found out the version of V-mix we would need is $1000 or so. And the specs are exactly the same as OBS so we might just stick with OBS for the foreseeable future.

If we are running to Twitch and Facebook for live (then eventually to youtube for live). How would we go about setting the level for each? Or should we just set the lowest level for one and send that to everything.
Old 30th April 2021
  #4
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🎧 10 years
Studio recording is a one trick pony while you are describing a three way application. For starters a professional approach would be to organize all of your inputs with stems to be controlled by DCAs and then groups if additional embellishment is needed. The reason for this is that most, if not all, FOH mixes are unsuitable for recording, streaming or broadcasting. The ability to have properly mixed pre amp outputs with out the ubiquitous room adjustments creates a fast track to the multiple deliveries you have described. I have been doing this type of work for 5 decades and trust me when I tell you there are no suitable short cuts: set it up right initially and avoid a lot of problems down the road.
Hugh
Old 1st May 2021 | Show parent
  #5
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse ➡️
Studio recording is a one trick pony while you are describing a three way application. For starters a professional approach would be to organize all of your inputs with stems to be controlled by DCAs and then groups if additional embellishment is needed. The reason for this is that most, if not all, FOH mixes are unsuitable for recording, streaming or broadcasting. The ability to have properly mixed pre amp outputs with out the ubiquitous room adjustments creates a fast track to the multiple deliveries you have described. I have been doing this type of work for 5 decades and trust me when I tell you there are no suitable short cuts: set it up right initially and avoid a lot of problems down the road.
Hugh
Yeah, that makes sense. I see how that can work. Thanks for the tips. I can make that work.
Old 1st May 2021
  #6
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huub's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
If it's not going through a traditional broadcaster it is not necessary to aim for -23LUFS.
In fact for streaming only I would aim a bit higher, more like towards -16LUFS.
That way you're in the same ballpark as youtube.
-16 LUFS is actually hard to reach during actual live broadcast without heavy processing.
Old 1st May 2021 | Show parent
  #7
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by huub ➡️
If it's not going through a traditional broadcaster it is not necessary to aim for -23LUFS.
In fact for streaming only I would aim a bit higher, more like towards -16LUFS.
That way you're in the same ballpark as youtube.
-16 LUFS is actually hard to reach during actual live broadcast without heavy processing.
Thanks, let me see what I can get it to tomorrow with LUFS.
Old 1st May 2021 | Show parent
  #8
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse ➡️
Studio recording is a one trick pony while you are describing a three way application. For starters a professional approach would be to organize all of your inputs with stems to be controlled by DCAs and then groups if additional embellishment is needed. The reason for this is that most, if not all, FOH mixes are unsuitable for recording, streaming or broadcasting. The ability to have properly mixed pre amp outputs with out the ubiquitous room adjustments creates a fast track to the multiple deliveries you have described. I have been doing this type of work for 5 decades and trust me when I tell you there are no suitable short cuts: set it up right initially and avoid a lot of problems down the road.
Hugh
After struggling with all sorts of crazy strategies for live streaming while doing FOH, I finally got my head around the concept you described. One of my very good friends broke it down for me and included using the matrix in a different way than I had been. I can’t believe that I didn’t do it this way until now. Everything sounds so much better and I finally feel like I can handle situations without worrying all of the time. I’m now using almost no eq on channels or busses, and just two very tiny cuts on the main system output, which is one of the matrix outputs. This has been such a revelation and in the past few weeks, I’m finally not fighting PA systems but letting them work for
me.

I never could understand how to get my gain to the right level without feeding back and without having faders in all sorts of weird spots, then having group faders, busses, etc, with all sorts of crazy amounts of gain being added or taken away. I know that was wrong, but didn’t know how to do it right. I’m pretty much self taught and really wish I had been able to intern and such when I was younger. Now at 46, I’m happy that people have been willing to share info with me.

So, now I have buses for each instrument group, vocals, speaking, miscellaneous, and fx, and those all go to the matrix, which goes to stream, recording, assisted listening, and main system. The big key was pulling the matrix sends on the system output back where needed, while the gain structure is still correct for sending to other places. Then using DCA’s to control fader groups. Now I’m rarely switching between fader layers anymore (digico sd9, Yamaha cl5, or behringer x32 in the different places I’m usually working), and also rarely even touching the DCA’s. The only channel faders I’m even touching are the vocal faders and that’s only to account for singers switching off from lead to background and so sometimes a blend adjustment is needed. No feedback either, full sounds, full sounds in wedges, therefore happier musicians!

This has also had a positive effect on my studio mixing. I’ve been practicing “top down” mixing there for a while, but I didn’t see that the same can be done with live sound.
Old 1st May 2021 | Show parent
  #9
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrufino1 ➡️
After struggling with all sorts of crazy strategies for live streaming while doing FOH, I finally got my head around the concept you described. One of my very good friends broke it down for me and included using the matrix in a different way than I had been. I can’t believe that I didn’t do it this way until now. Everything sounds so much better and I finally feel like I can handle situations without worrying all of the time. I’m now using almost no eq on channels or busses, and just two very tiny cuts on the main system output, which is one of the matrix outputs. This has been such a revelation and in the past few weeks, I’m finally not fighting PA systems but letting them work for
me.

I never could understand how to get my gain to the right level without feeding back and without having faders in all sorts of weird spots, then having group faders, busses, etc, with all sorts of crazy amounts of gain being added or taken away. I know that was wrong, but didn’t know how to do it right. I’m pretty much self taught and really wish I had been able to intern and such when I was younger. Now at 46, I’m happy that people have been willing to share info with me.

So, now I have buses for each instrument group, vocals, speaking, miscellaneous, and fx, and those all go to the matrix, which goes to stream, recording, assisted listening, and main system. The big key was pulling the matrix sends on the system output back where needed, while the gain structure is still correct for sending to other places. Then using DCA’s to control fader groups. Now I’m rarely switching between fader layers anymore (digico sd9, Yamaha cl5, or behringer x32 in the different places I’m usually working), and also rarely even touching the DCA’s. The only channel faders I’m even touching are the vocal faders and that’s only to account for singers switching off from lead to background and so sometimes a blend adjustment is needed. No feedback either, full sounds, full sounds in wedges, therefore happier musicians!

This has also had a positive effect on my studio mixing. I’ve been practicing “top down” mixing there for a while, but I didn’t see that the same can be done with live sound.
there are a few things which remain critical and never work equally well (such as amount of efx, use of eq, dynmaics, to compensate for instruments which are too soft or loud in the venue etc.) when having to provide a mix for broadcast at the same time as mixing foh from the same desk but using a clean layout and smart organisation of inputs and all sorts of outputs certainly make things easier if not possible in the first place...

___


if i have to hit a specific lufs target, i'm using a jünger broadcast processor on one of the matrices.
Old 1st May 2021 | Show parent
  #10
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
there are a few things which remain critical and never work equally well (such as amount of efx, use of eq, dynmaics, to compensate for instruments which are too soft or loud in the venue etc.) when having to provide a mix for broadcast at the same time as mixing foh from the same desk but using a clean layout and smart organisation of inputs and all sorts of outputs certainly make things easier if not possible in the first place...

___


if i have to hit a specific lufs target, i'm using a jünger broadcast processor on one of the matrices.
Right. By doing it the way he showed me though, I’m able to send different amounts of each group to each matrix so the drums can be full on fit the stream and barely in the house (it’s a jazz church service), etc. It stays pretty consistent. Definitely not quite the same as having a dedicated broadcast mixer but much better than what I was doing before.

Prior to 3 weeks ago, I had a separate aux mix that was the mix that went to the matrix, which was then sent to stream, recorder, upstairs, etc. But it was at the mercy of my FOH mix with incorrect gain structure and all sorts of crazy eq to fight feedback on the grand piano, etc. I knew those things were wrong but couldn’t figure out any other way to do it. That left all of my channels sounding too thin. I even tried running a prefaced and postfader mix in parallel, which was interesting but not good...

Now I’m realizing how good a properly tuned system is and what that does for the rest of the chain. I was making so many little adjustments to graphic eq before and also channel eq, plus multiband comps, compression, dynamic eq, and on and on. The more I did the more I got lost in the sauce. Now I have templates for all of the mixers I use and it’s made things so much easier. At the new performing arts center where I’m doing FOH, the band was so happy on opening night, as were the people who hired me, which then makes me very happy. That’s a d&b/ cl5 setup and it was cool to do the same thing on a different mixer.

Anyway, this is probably old news to all the vets, but it really was life changing for me. I always want to learn more though so I keep getting better. No touring for me due to some health conditions, but I want to be the best “house guy” I can be so anyone who comes in gets what they need and has a great show, whether I’m doing FOH or assisting a visiting engineer.

Oh, and I have no idea what the junger broadcast processor is but I’ll be looking it up!
Old 2nd May 2021 | Show parent
  #11
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrufino1 ➡️
(...) Now I’m realizing how good a properly tuned system is (...)

Anyway, this is probably old news to all the vets, but it really was life changing for me. I always want to learn more though so I keep getting better. No touring for me due to some health conditions, but I want to be the best “house guy” I can be so anyone who comes in gets what they need and has a great show, whether I’m doing FOH or assisting a visiting engineer.
excellent!


Quote:
Oh, and I have no idea what the junger broadcast processor is but I’ll be looking it up!
that's the one i was referring to:

https://www.junger-audio.com/en/prod...on-and-options
Old 2nd May 2021 | Show parent
  #12
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
excellent!


that's the one i was referring to:

https://www.junger-audio.com/en/prod...on-and-options
Oh cool, We’ll have to look into that.
Old 2nd May 2021 | Show parent
  #13
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
excellent!


that's the one i was referring to:

https://www.junger-audio.com/en/prod...on-and-options
I looked that hardware up. They make a vst version of that now. Flux makes it. Probably not the same but similar.

https://www.flux.audio/project/junge...o-level-magic/
Old 2nd May 2021 | Show parent
  #14
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by a.fumco ➡️
I looked that hardware up. They make a vst version of that now. Flux makes it. Probably not the same but similar.

https://www.flux.audio/project/junge...o-level-magic/
the hardware processor can get bumped up to do a few more things (version 'flex') but the basic 'level magic' algorithm is the same in the jünger/flux plugin - my entire rig is hardware based though...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #15
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I haven't gone through the entire thread, so I'm not sure if this was mentioned, but since it's not a network feed, I would set my levels closer to the YouTube standard of -16LUFS.
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