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Immersive Audio and Object Based Mixing
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
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JCBigler's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Immersive Audio and Object Based Mixing

Is anyone here working in immersive audio, whether for classical or other types of location recording/performance yet?

There are the big three systems for live sound: L-Acoustics L-ISA, Meyer Sound's SpaceMap Go, and D&B Audiotechnik's Soundscape, and Dolby Atmos for recording which all offer object based mixing, as well as the psycho acoustics of immersive audio.

I've toured with the L-ISA system. Probably the only touring theatre show to do so yet. And I've used SpaceMap as part of Meyer's D-mitri system. Which has me looking hard into the Atmos system for recording work. All of them really offer a paradigm shift in the way we think about both collecting, organizing and outputting our audio projects.

In my tiny little world, in thinking about the possibilities of immersive audio for classical music; I think there could be some interesting artistic opportunities by shifting the perspective of the listener, and putting them inside the orchestra or band, rather than maintaining the FOH perspective of the traditional listening environment. Obviously, it would be an adjustment for the listener, but could provide a unique experience.

Are any of you working in immersive audio yet? What have been your thoughts and experiences with it? And where do you see it going in the future?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
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🎧 10 years
Inside the orchestra is a listening perspective I'm happy to leave to the orchestral conductor, though I can appreciate the experience might be novel and engaging ?

Presumably a single Soundfield/Rode/Zylia type of device would achieve this by being located directly above the conductor...or perhaps even forward of that position, via a boom arm ?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #3
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler ➡️
Is anyone here working in immersive audio, whether for classical or other types of location recording/performance yet?

There are the big three systems for live sound: L-Acoustics L-ISA, Meyer Sound's SpaceMap Go, and D&B Audiotechnik's Soundscape, and Dolby Atmos for recording which all offer object based mixing, as well as the psycho acoustics of immersive audio.

I've toured with the L-ISA system. Probably the only touring theatre show to do so yet. And I've used SpaceMap as part of Meyer's D-mitri system. Which has me looking hard into the Atmos system for recording work. All of them really offer a paradigm shift in the way we think about both collecting, organizing and outputting our audio projects.

In my tiny little world, in thinking about the possibilities of immersive audio for classical music; I think there could be some interesting artistic opportunities by shifting the perspective of the listener, and putting them inside the orchestra or band, rather than maintaining the FOH perspective of the traditional listening environment. Obviously, it would be an adjustment for the listener, but could provide a unique experience.

Are any of you working in immersive audio yet? What have been your thoughts and experiences with it? And where do you see it going in the future?
i have some experience recording and mixing in surround and immersive formats, in various genre, in studio and live situations (and with installations).

imo there's a fundamental difference between live and any other situation: 'immersive' in live sound first and foremost aims at enabling a much larger part of the audience to get directional cues (thanx to the far larger overlap between hangs) and allows for more freedom in term of panaroma choices than when using conventional l/r or l/c/r hangs; for this, one does not need a immersive processor but can use conventional 5.1

the 'immersive part' (height and/or side/rear channels) then is icing on the cake and - as long as we're talking 'static' mixing - one doesn't need to work with 'objects' either but can use dedicated buses/subgroups/stems/auxes/matrices or another 5.1 bus (maybe 'downsized' to 4.0/'quad') - a joy stick then allows for simple panning of sources within the immersive soundfield created by height, side or rear speakers.

___


in terms of applications for different genre, i find immersive formats pointless for classical music: of course the effct can be pretty overwhelming/fascinating, especially for an unexperienced listener - personally, i hate flying violins above my head and swirl around in the surround/immersive soundfield though...

also, i'm not buying into dolby's ponzi scheme and much rather stick to my core production format of choice which in all situations remains to be 5.1 (as it's by far the most widely adopted surround format).

___


as much as i like using d&b's and l'acoustics' processors, i prefer not getting tied to one manufacturer and lately have been using astro spatial's sara processor.

and there's an issue of efx devices: so far, i do not know any other device than tc's reverb 24 which allows to create a convincing 3d soundfield; orville h9000 might come up with new algorithms but so far, the tc remain unchallenged (but doesn't get supported anymore - nevertheless, i bought one a few months ago). maybe a different story in terms of plugins; i simply dunno as i'm working on desks...

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 3 weeks ago at 11:14 AM..
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Inside the orchestra is a listening perspective I'm happy to leave to the orchestral conductor, though I can appreciate the experience might be novel and engaging ?

Maybe for some of Karlheinz Stockhausen's workhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlheinz_Stockhausen


Coincidentally, I had an originally scheduled fall 2021 Asian tour of Carmina Burana in immersive "live" . Orchestra and singers all over the venue, soloists in front loggias , choir in the balconies behind audience that type of thing...now on the back burner ... The recording and live amplification would have been a welcomed challenge in these "unusual" times....

Tomorrow I'm working on an immersive video production , as Studer58 suggested we're using an ambeo mic ..and some(lots of ) spots...

D. how expensive is the SARA ? vs the meyer or l'acoustics?

ray
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #5
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
no idea on sara's price 'cause so far, i got to rent it from a theater which has been using it but on few selected productions...
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
no idea on sara's price 'cause so far, i got to rent it from a theater which has been using it but on few selected productions...
thanks D..


found this a few days ago when researching a similar subject ..:https://www.researchgate.net/publica...for_Live_Audio

Ray
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #7
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JCBigler's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayS ➡️
D. how expensive is the SARA ? vs the meyer or l'acoustics?

ray
The list price on the L-ISA processor is about 30 grand. Meyer's new SpaceMap Go is a free firmware update to their Galaxy processors. Last time I checked the Galaxy 816 was like, 12 grand ish? Their full SpaceMap system is Part of their D-Mitri line and is closer to the L-ISA processor in price.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #8
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JCBigler's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Presumably a single Soundfield/Rode/Zylia type of device would achieve this by being located directly above the conductor...or perhaps even forward of that position, via a boom arm ?
Is the Soundfield/Ambisonic stuff actually an immersive audio system though? Or is it more just an extension of surround sound? You can't really position the various mic elements the way you can in a true immersive audio system.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #9
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler ➡️
Is the Soundfield/Ambisonic stuff actually an immersive audio system though? Or is it more just an extension of surround sound? You can't really position the various mic elements the way you can in a true immersive audio system.
it isn't - it's your typical first order ambisonic mic which has many benefits but also some limitations: typically, the height information is very limited (for technical reasons/design limitations) - also, the technology predates what became known as immersive audio (or even object based mixing) by a few decades.

nevertheless, it's a very capable technology and i've been using three different ambisonic mic systems (soundfield sps-200, schoeps double m/s, pair of oc-818's) plus double ortf for the height channels for 7.1.4 with great results (although i do prefer widely spaced surround rears, no matter what format i'm working in)...
Old 1 week ago
  #10
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🎧 5 years
Today, L-Acoustics announced their new L-ISA Studio software, a software only version of their L-ISA immersive mixing system that runs on a laptop, complete with their proprietary room engine (reverb), and a binaural renderer for mixing on headphones or IEMs. You can apparently select which PA system you want to mix for and it will adjust the curve of your IEMS if you are using the Contour XO in-ear monitors from L-Acoustics (designed by JH Audio). You can set up 5.1, 7.1, and 7.1.4 mixing, as well as just 12.0.0.

I haven't had a chance to play with it yet. But the first version of the room engine that I used on tour with the Blue Man Group with the full L-ISA processor was fantastic. There is also an L-ISA Source control plugin for AAX, VST3 and AU for use in your DAW.

It's a subscription model, with yearly, 3-month, and monthly options. Not too bad and just a bit above what the Dolby Atmos Produciton Suite costs. (Though DAPS is a one time fee, so there's that). It's Mac only right now, but I would assume that a Windows version is coming, since the full L-ISA Control software also runs on Windows.

https://www.l-acoustics.com/products/l-isa-studio/

https://youtu.be/MAUozU6ylrk
Old 1 week ago
  #11
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🎧 10 years
I've dabbled a bit - mostly exploring the binaural and 360 video possibilities.

Ambisonic mic's are immersive in nature: they capture the 360-degree soundfield; but it is single point of capture, coincident. This is good and bad. I certainly would not rely on just one ambisonic mic to make a compelling immersive capture - especially not a first-order mic like the Soundfield's, Rode, or Sennheiser offerings.

I like my Soundfield, and it is certainly handy to have around, but it will not make me retire my Schoeps any time soon. It is indispensible for 360 production, but it cannot carry the whole thing on its own: I need spot and ambient mic's to really make it work.

The higher-order mic's are better, though again, I'd not rely on a single mic to make a compelling immersive capture. The Eigenmic is to me the best of the lot. The Zylia 6DoF system looks very compelling too - especially for the price. My issue with these is their reliance on proprietary software.

I've found these things work best when (a) you are not looking to replicate "reality" - reality is not generally what it is cracked up to be, IMHO; and (b) the production is designed from the ground up to be immersive: the concept, repertoire, ensemble, and setup should all support something that will be compelling to experience immersively.

I've been mostly working in Dolby Atmos, Facebook 360, IEM, and DearVR environments. I feel like there is a lot of potential here that is not being explored, for all styles of music.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #12
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler ➡️
Today, L-Acoustics announced their new L-ISA Studio software, a software only version of their L-ISA immersive mixing system that runs on a laptop, complete with their proprietary room engine (reverb), and a binaural renderer for mixing on headphones or IEMs. You can apparently select which PA system you want to mix for and it will adjust the curve of your IEMS if you are using the Contour XO in-ear monitors from L-Acoustics (designed by JH Audio). You can set up 5.1, 7.1, and 7.1.4 mixing, as well as just 12.0.0.

I haven't had a chance to play with it yet. But the first version of the room engine that I used on tour with the Blue Man Group with the full L-ISA processor was fantastic. There is also an L-ISA Source control plugin for AAX, VST3 and AU for use in your DAW.

It's a subscription model, with yearly, 3-month, and monthly options. Not too bad and just a bit above what the Dolby Atmos Produciton Suite costs. (Though DAPS is a one time fee, so there's that). It's Mac only right now, but I would assume that a Windows version is coming, since the full L-ISA Control software also runs on Windows.

https://www.l-acoustics.com/products/l-isa-studio/

https://youtu.be/MAUozU6ylrk

WOW thanks BJ, that looks like an awesome product , I was preping a show in Flux , but this opens up so many other possibilities...

Ray
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #13
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JCBigler's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayS ➡️
WOW thanks BJ, that looks like an awesome product , I was preping a show in Flux , but this opens up so many other possibilities...

Ray
Would love to hear what you think about it if you end up using it for a project. I'm eyeballs deep in an opera this week so won't get to demo it until next week.
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