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Recommendation for CD alternative for Festival Archive.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Recommendation for CD alternative for Festival Archive.

Hi Chaps

For 10 yrs Ive been recording/ archiving my local Festival of Contemporary Music .
CD has been the medium I delivery to the Administrators
Im on Pro Logic, how should I deliver my stereo tracks in 2021 ?
Want a physical medium , not a sharing web site.
Do about 12-14 cds per fest.

Roger
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
USB memory sticks, aka thumb drives, are cheap as chips these days...probably buy a job lot of 8 or 16GB ones for almost as cheap as a CD-R no?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #3
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
My wife's company bought a bunch of cheap USB thumb drives and had their company logo imprinted. Two of the two that I used to deliver photos to them were corrupted. After that, I only gave them genuine Sandisk USB drives.

If it weren't for the number of photo files and the size of each file, I would have uploaded the photos to them instead.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #4
Gear Nut
Not what you want to hear but,


FWIW. I've not seen a cd in years (many years!) +computers don't have readers/recorders anymore and they don't have usb ports either ???

Clouds are the thing, I keep all my masters on physical thunderbolt drives here at the studio/home 2-3 TB is the size of a phone or smaller .....and I send as many people a copy of the file ...

Ray
Old 2 weeks ago
  #5
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
It's a tricky minefield.....storage against future shock, obsolescence, non-readability, data degradation. Depending on the CD-R designation, if you get more than 8-10 years of future playability (of the discs themselves...let alone the players) you're doing well !

I say keep doing the CD's....but start sagely supplementing them, as below....

SD cards and USB thumb drives might do better, as long as SD slots in hubs and computer frames persist....but they're small enough to easily lose (or accidentally write-over !) Hard to label or write on too. However, that's not really your problem...after the data has left your hands, it's really a case of "receiver beware"

Safest bet (for data longevity) is storing it on multiple media, so the Festival Admins have several sources to access later (and generally advise to re-copy the entire cumulative archive every 5 years....to the 'next new storage medium')

Are volatile storage systems, like SD, USB thumb and SSD drives going to fare better than spinning HDD and CD-R long term ? Whose crystal ball gazing skills are working best....in the meanwhile spread the risk across as many of the above media as the Admins can afford (and storage has never been cheaper, so it's easy to justify !)

Advise the Admins to keep that data storage shoebox well labelled, store it in a cool dry cupboard....and re-copy it all every 5 years. They can even write that latter policy into their constitution ! (if they're the sort of organisation that even has a future archival orientation ?)

I see vinyl's even a 'happening thing' again....maybe they could a boutique pressing run annually, if they're well-enough heeled ? LP records, left unplayed in that same cool dark cupboard, will probably outlast all the digital media....

Last edited by studer58; 2 weeks ago at 01:37 AM..
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayS ➑️
Clouds are the thing, I keep all my masters on physical thunderbolt drives here at the studio/home
Clouds are 'a' thing now, but only 'the' thing for as long as the Admins choose to maintain their subscription to the current cloud provider....I certainly wouldn't want it to be the sole repository, so spreading the data across several physical and cloud storage platforms is safest bet.

As for Thunderbolt being a viable connector type into the future...that's only as likely as Apple not changing its mind and adopting a new (non backward compatible) transfer protocol and connector. FWIW I'm still keeping FireWire alive as long as I can, which makes me a confirmed Luddite dinosaur!

Thunderbolt(s) ....and how many iterations have we had already ?....are likely to exceed FireWire's lifespan, but that's not sayin' much !
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #7
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➑️
Clouds are 'a' thing now, but only 'the' thing for as long as the Admins chose the maintain their subscription to the current cloud provider....I certainly wouldn't want it to be the sole repository, so spreading the data across several physical and cloud storage platforms is safest bet.

As for Thunderbolt being a viable connector type into the future...that's only as likely as Apple not changing its mind and adopting a new (non backward compatible) transfer protocol and connector. FWIW I'm still keeping FireWire alive as long as I can, which makes me a confirmed Luddite dinosaur!



Like I said I have not seen a "physical" media in years.....YMMV. I don't make the rules .....I still have reels, ( 2" in many cases) mindiscs ,dats, (I can'T find a decent machine to play these on anyways.) cds, dvd you name it .....back-ups of everything, as well as all manners of hard drives, firewire, usb and older ide sata etc... and yes thunderbolt...I'd still prefer real hardware in the studio but, hey! they want x y z plug ins...I'm older than the people that i work for and so are you I might think. . i just adapted, I do long for the time when I purchased an LP it was in my collection ! but my wife doesn't miss those times

Ray
Old 2 weeks ago
  #8
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
If it weren't for CDs the arts org I work for would have lost a great many original scores and performance edits of those scores. The people who worked on those shows moved on years ago, there has been a lot of turnover in staff and a general feeling of not caring so much about the past until an old show suddenly becomes the focus of the creative's attention. CDs can be written on and put in albums on a shelf. There is endless confusion over naming and location of files on the org's Google Drive, to the point that often former employees have to be contacted to see if they preserved the music themselves. All the USB sticks I've handed over have disappeared. Same with hard disks. The shows that have been done since they stopped using CDs for storage are in danger of being lost, or at least misplaced. The truth is that archiving is boring niggly work, that everyone wants someone else to do for them. The alternative to CD delivery is to send copies to as many people as possible and archive the files yourself. But part of every job now is the speech that I don't guarantee that my files will be readable x number of years from now: the client's archiving is the client's problem.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #9
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
There have been a few brave (?) CD-R mfrs who stated their discs were "long term archival " quality. Kodak's 100 year guarantee comes to mind...I think I have one of those which was burned maybe 15 yrs ago...must give it a spin to check !

The point being that any medium using an embedded photochemical dye as the encoding mechanism has to be at least 'suspect' in terms of longevity, and probably on the same continuum as any of the tape species...? Not to mention that storage conditions (temperature variations, light intrusion at the very least) are going to play a part.

Anybody here remember the infamous 'CD rot' that afflicted the aluminium layer of early runs of Decca CDs ?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #10
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RightOnRome's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
cassette's!







I have a CD burner in my rig .. I cant give the CD's away... I have actually been thinking about removing it finally ..crazy ...

your best bet is usb sticks or cloud
Old 2 weeks ago
  #11
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tourtelot's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
We still present our clients with CDs after every performance. I know. Old skool. But they are, like some have said, a ubiquitous media. Most of the people that I work for would look at me like I had grown a second head if I handed them a thumb drive.

Now some clients, festivals and such, have a very specific "cloud solution" in place; artist have access to their own work but no others, the material is backed up by the festival organizers on their choice of media or shuffled to another cloud. But good management skills are need to do such a thing. A DIT (that's "movie" for Digital Information Technician) needs to be in place to make all of it work. Community groups don't have the money, or the interest, to have such a person in place for four performances a year. Hence, the Alesis MasterLink still goes out on every job I do, along with some nice printed CDs.

Our backups are, typically, on spinning drives but I am moving to SSDs; not actually certain whether that is a more robust solution or not. I am not, personally, a fan of cloud-based storage, even as I have a cloud-based backup of my HDD backups (I know!). Too far out of direct control, and I have never needed to retrieve anything from my cloud, and only a scant few times from my drives.

After one year, I offer the client the files, and if they don't want them, I am done with my archival responsibility. Although (and don't tell anyone) I never erase the drives. Hard disk space is cheap. But if one of my drives from 10 years ago doesn't spin up, so sorry Charley.

D.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #12
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot ➑️
We still present our clients with CDs after every performance. I know. Old skool. But they are, like some have said, a ubiquitous media. .
A thought I've had for several years is "what are these folks going to do when their faithful old CD player dies" I suspect many of them use their home hifi player solely...and wouldn't even be aware that tower computers, new cars and laptops haven't had CD drives onboard for several years now.

I got something of an answer when I saw a 'plays everything' player on sale for less than $100 in a major home electronics retail store last week. This thing will accept BluRay, DVD, DVD-R, CD, CD-R, maybe even USB sticks and SD card (for photos)

As long as this sort of catch-all device remains on retailer shelves...and it's reasonable to expect this sort of device will be the (only) replacement available as people's dedicated players die of old age....then disc replay will be possible for another decade or so, at least ? The reading lasers and transports, as always, have finite lives, however...

I have a suspicion we're hurtling ever-forward to an unfolding future of increasing data fragility and transience....whatever you might think of printed books, tape, vinyl etc. Encoding it across various media, cloud sites and 'multiple safekeepers' seems like prudent practice.

Hopefully, post climate apocalypse, there might be people interested enough to join up the dots as to who's stored what, and where...and that it'll still be of musical validity and replayable ?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #13
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
It's a bit of an interesting conundrum that the latest media storage may turn out to be the least reliable for long term preservation.

Maybe we should print the waveforms from our DAWS on paper to be able to re-scan and reinput when all the digital media fails.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #14
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tourtelot's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks ➑️

Maybe we should print the waveforms from our DAWS on paper to be able to re-scan and reinput when all the digital media fails.
2053. Monk-scribes toiling over parchment with quill pens transcribing the wave-forms of a Bach Cantata recorded on an SD card in the early 2020's.

D.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #15
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot ➑️
2053. Monk-scribes toiling over parchment with quill pens transcribing the wave-forms of a Bach Cantata recorded on an SD card in the early 2020's.

D.
....cursing and muttering all the while "why did those bastards have to record everything in 24/96....what's wrong with 8 bit, so much more data for us to transcribe "
Old 2 weeks ago
  #16
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
I have an Edison Home Phonograph, maybe thats a contender
No inner groove distortion on that bad boy.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #17
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 ➑️
I have an Edison Home Phonograph, maybe thats a contender
No inner groove distortion on that bad boy.
Are you saying this reflects the vintage of your festival administration ?

It makes eminent sense to span the eons with redundant safety copies...
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #18
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 ➑️
I have an Edison Home Phonograph, maybe thats a contender
No inner groove distortion on that bad boy.
The Edison technology was clearly superior to the Victor gramophone and yet the latter won the market war...a bizarre scanario later repeated in the Betamax versus VHS contest.

FWIW, I still buy vinyl and 1/4" tape (still record on tape from time to time), burn CDs, still play many CD-R over 10 years old, and generally eschew 'the cloud' except for transferring files to others at their request. I believe CDs are still the best storage medium for digital music but for large scale digital data archiving - think governments - I have read that computer tape is still king.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #19
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad ➑️
I believe CDs are still the best storage medium for digital music but for large scale digital data archiving - think governments - I have read that computer tape is still king.
I believe some of those former 'kings of tape' manufacturers may have taken a backward step in recent years: https://www.scotchbrand.com/3M/en_US...3786499&rt=rud
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #20
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad ➑️
The Edison technology was clearly superior to the Victor gramophone and yet the latter won the market war...a bizarre scanario later repeated in the Betamax versus VHS contest.

FWIW, I still buy vinyl and 1/4" tape (still record on tape from time to time), burn CDs, still play many CD-R over 10 years old, and generally eschew 'the cloud' except for transferring files to others at their request. I believe CDs are still the best storage medium for digital music but for large scale digital data archiving - think governments - I have read that computer tape is still king.
Same here. My thoughts: So what happens when the company running the cloud goes bankrupt and you can no longer access your files. What happens if they have some power problems and the whole place stops and corrupts the data or they have a fire and...

I would rather have my CDs and backups stored locally.

When I was doing more local recordings for groups I gave them two CDs one to play and one to archive, I also kept a CD and archived their concerts on our backup drives. Never had a problem. Today I would probably give them a CD and a backup on a thumb drive. I would still keep their concerts on our backup drives and make a CD for our archives. Call me old fashion but it works...
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #21
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edva's Avatar
 
26 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➑️
.......

Hopefully, post climate apocalypse, there might be people interested enough to join up the dots as to who's stored what, and where........
Hmmm, on that note, my guess would be the social apocalypse will arrive before the climate apocalypse.
Saw an article today that some professors at Oxford university believe Mozart and Beethoven, along with notated music, should be cancelled. Why? Because they happened to be alive at a certain time in history, and, well, I won't post the rest of the "reasoning", but the whole thing is beyond imbecilic, IMHO, and a harbinger of what is to come. Possibly of course, no one really knows what tomorrow will bring.
Back on topic, I still have clients asking for CD's, some thumb drives, but the majority just want the files sent to them electronically. As for myself, I keep multiple backups on HD and SSD.
YMMV. Good luck.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #22
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king2070lplaya's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by edva ➑️
Hmmm, on that note, my guess would be the social apocalypse will arrive before the climate apocalypse.
Saw an article today that some professors at Oxford university believe Mozart and Beethoven, along with notated music, should be cancelled. Why? Because they happened to be alive at a certain time in history, and, well, I won't post the rest of the "reasoning", but the whole thing is beyond imbecilic, IMHO, and a harbinger of what is to come. Possibly of course, no one really knows what tomorrow will bring.
Back on topic, I still have clients asking for CD's, some thumb drives, but the majority just want the files sent to them electronically. As for myself, I keep multiple backups on HD and SSD.
YMMV. Good luck.
I find this take on social decline and censorship to be pretty HUAC.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #23
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
do you all keep copies of projects, files and folders, older computers, os and interfaces, containing recording sessions, edits, stems, mixes and masters?!

i never wanted to become an archivist and therefore never offered to keep anything for any longer than one year after completition of a project (or in some cases: my involvement into projects) but mostly got the right to keep things (for my own pleasure and entertainment; certainly not for release/commercial use) for as long as i want.

that said, i admit that i do still have some 2", 1/2", 1/4" tapes, floppy discs (!), scsi-discs, cd's, dvd's, mdm-tapes, dat's, mini discs, cassettes and whatnot somewhere on a shelve! i'm sure i'll never even try to retrieve any data...




[maybe steve remote could tune in? afaik he is meticulously documenting things - i never did: there were times i was too busy (2000 shows in 5 years) or conditions would simply not allow for it (working in areas of conflict/war zones)]

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 2 weeks ago at 04:10 PM..
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #24
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➑️
do you all keep copies of projects, files and folders, older computers, os and interfaces, containing recording sessions, edits, stems, mixes and masters?!

i never wanted to become an archivist and therefore never offered to keep anything for any longer than one year after completition of a project (or in some cases: my involvement into projects) but mostly got the right to keep things (for my own pleasure and entertainment; certainly not for release/commercial use) for as long as i want.

that said, i admit that i do still have some 2", 1/2", 1/4" tapes, floppy discs (!), scsi-discs, cd's, dvd's, mdm-tapes, dat's, mini discs, cassettes and whatnot somewhere on a shelve! i'm sure i'll never even try to retrieve any data...




[maybe steve remote could tune in? afaik he is meticulously documenting things - i never did: there were times i was too busy (2000 shows in 5 years) or conditions would simply not allow for it (working in areas of conflict/war zones)]
I'd like to but can't. Not enough time, space, will and too forgetful. I do what I can but clients are told that ultimately their project is their project. That doesn't keep them from coming back at me years after delivery looking for elements, and in general so far I've been lucky to find what's needed. But there have been a few times in which I had to tell them that for one of a number of reasons their project cannot be retrieved. I'm now old enough to realize that not only is there an issue around how long I need to keep projects viable within my own studio, there are also issues around the eventual closure and selling off of my studio and my departure from the business, the area, life, and so on. This is why producers of really expensive projects (like Hollywood movies) go to extreme lengths to archive their productions for the salt mines.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #25
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edva's Avatar
 
26 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya ➑️
I find this take on social decline and censorship to be pretty HUAC.
Somewhat conspiratorial reply.
At any rate, perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps those clamoring for a cultural revolution will succeed, and we will all be the better for it.
Kind of a great leap forward, one might say.

Sorry for the OT, won't reply further.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #26
Gear Guru
A 3 cent CDR is cheaper than a flash drive. Offer both if you like, but charge more for the drives.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #27
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams ➑️
A 3 cent CDR is cheaper than a flash drive. Offer both if you like, but charge more for the drives.
Working on that sort of a margin, I guess these discs are out of the question for your purposes:

https://www.amazon.com/Archival-100-.../dp/B004QPE4IO

https://www.adorama.com/alc/kodak-cl...ast-100-years/
Old 2 weeks ago
  #28
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RobAnderson's Avatar
 
15 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
I generally deliver both on CD (if customer requests) AND online (box.com, dropbox, google drive, wetransfer, etc. - again, depending on client preference).

CD-R's are not permanent, unlike their hard-pressed CD cousins (and even then...). I attempt to keep archives here, but HDD's age and I can't keep everything forever.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #29
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
FWIW, some time ago, I started including printed instructions with my CD/DVDs that the media has a limited lifespan, shorter if placed in sunlight, humidity or non-temperature controlled conditions, and recommending that the customer copy the CD/DVD onto other storage and back it up appropriately. I began doing this simply because I want the customer to think about how they can best preserve their media in their own situation because I think that's their best option if they seriously intend to keep it for a long time.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #30
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
The following article makes a compelling case for storage of valuable media in more than one location.

Irrespective of the assurances and legal razzmatazz by Universal Music Group, the exhaustive 'pink list' at the end of the piece makes for a sobering reminder of what was at stake on June 1st 2008, when that worker fired up his blowtorch...little did he know the little that he knew, on that fateful day....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008...l_Studios_fire

Last edited by studer58; 2 weeks ago at 03:32 AM..
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