Quantcast
Jecklin or 4 mic array for string quartet ? - Page 3 - Gearspace.com
The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Jecklin or 4 mic array for string quartet ?
Old 23rd January 2021 | Show parent
  #61
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot ➡️
So just to get this straight, we are now okay with video telling us where to put our mics? We are using noisy lavalieres instead of better sounding mics because someone behind a camera tells us so? I thought I was done with that when I left the motion picture business. Never a happier day in my life. Ugh.

D.
More a case of coexistence and compromise perhaps ? The situation I faced (see pic above) was one of the cameras needing to be both central and further back than the main mic stand....which then entails either a long boom arm for the main pair, or alternate stand placement to either side of the front row players (and a boom arm)

Another option, mentioned earlier in this thread, is a pair of stands, behind the backs of both 1st vln and cello, suspending a long rod or cable/rope to which are attached a main pair...like an overhead bridge, out of camera shot.

Relative invisibility is possible, with some ingenuity and stand-hardware, rather than defaulting to PZM as necessarily the first option ?
Old 23rd January 2021 | Show parent
  #62
Lives for gear
 
tourtelot's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I have both an 18' boom arm and a 14' "trapeze" that goes between two stands. Both are okay for most smallish groups but I find, hilariously, that after all the folks that want the stands out of the frame, both "solutions" cast really distracting "boom" shadows from the always directly overhead lights. No one but me seems to notice. Of course, the soloist always must stand so the the shadow flits across his/her face for the whole performance.

D.
Old 23rd January 2021
  #63
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Only for video shoots Doug
Not for proper recording.
Most watch on phones anyhow...
Old 23rd January 2021 | Show parent
  #64
Lives for gear
 
tourtelot's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I have some sense that the video presentations that we are seeing due to COVID will become the "norm".

D.
Old 23rd January 2021
  #65
Gear Nut
Interestingly enough this post :Solo Pedal Harp

features a beautiful video with plenty of mics :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK7VItt-E6M


Ray
Old 23rd January 2021
  #66
Gear Maniac
Doug you have a proper background in the movies, would you mind edumacating the rest of us about how you approach that 18' boom job?

I maxed out at a little more than 10' on this piano trio video/recording yesterday, by putting an Avenger arm on a rolling Matthews 'Mombo Combo' stand, extended with about 4' of carbon fiber pipe fitted with normal Manfrotto 154 bits to a (steel!!) baby pin at the end of the Avenger. It worked well, the mains were invisible in all four cameras. But that was a trio... I have a 12-piece chamber group next month and 20' ish reach would be really helpful for that.

Are you building what they call a 'Menace arm' with speed rail, ratchet straps, sandbags... the works?
Old 23rd January 2021
  #67
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
If they want it' invisible' they should pay for the full Schoepes solution or do it to playback properly
Old 23rd January 2021 | Show parent
  #68
Lives for gear
 
tourtelot's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klimermonk ➡️
Doug you have a proper background in the movies, would you mind edumacating the rest of us about how you approach that 18' boom job?
Well, yes sort of. Lots of sand bags, a long cage-type boom holder, a steel three-riser stand (10' off the ground) and an 18' carbon fiber boom pole. There is quite a bow in the boom pole, but I've seen it worse with a Sennheiser MKH816 in a zeppelin and a high wind covering. I actually used to have a first-call boom operator who was a master with this setup. Quite impressive she was.

It probably only goes out about 16' with two feet of counter-weight. It will "safely" hold a pair of SDCs.

Do I get nervous putting it up? Yes. It's tricky, wonky, hitchy, wobbly. All those things. Do I have concerns once it is up, locked into place, counter-weighted? No, not really. Is it my first choice of mounting a pair of mics? Nope. Do I use it often? Nope. But, knock on wood (and I am VERY careful), it has always worked as it should without any oh my gods.

https://cinequipt.com/products/k-tek-boom-pole-holder/

I also have an all-steel setup that I use to hang my Decca Tree over the conductor's podium. No fear with that rig (still lots of sand bags) but it doesn't boom out very far and I run the boom part out diagonally, not horizontally.

D.
Old 23rd January 2021
  #69
Gear Maniac
Good to know about that KTek, Doug... That is a serious piece of kit. I tested a lesser quality boom pole holder with my EXTREMELY long Gitzo boom (Series 4 seven section), and as I added load the weld on the little pin started to rip apart. After disassembling everything, I took off the rubber protective coating to find a VERY inferior Tee weld hiding underneath. Immediately bought an Avenger boom.

Am I nuts to contemplate a full malice arm? I do over think things at times!!

Last edited by Klimermonk; 23rd January 2021 at 11:35 PM.. Reason: Spelling
Old 24th January 2021 | Show parent
  #70
Lives for gear
 
tourtelot's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klimermonk ➡️

Am I nuts to contemplate a full malice arm? I do over think things at times!!
Maybe, but you need the whole grip department to put it together.

The 12' trapeze works well. It is made out of 2" aluminum tubing in two sections. But I think adding another 6' section might be risky and at that point, maybe a full piece of aluminum antenna tower might be better. But by then, you are into some serious rigging. Ugh! Better have a full (paid) setup day for that stuff.

D.
Old 24th January 2021 | Show parent
  #71
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
There's a world (well... a small moon) of difference between using these stand/boom solutions in a closed set filming/recording session context...and a typical public performance concert setting, with it being virtually impossible to control the public's movements, bumping into stands, etc.

There are certain approaches you might apply in one context but never in the other.

Here's another pic from the session...
Attached Thumbnails
Jecklin or 4 mic array for string quartet ?-ortf.jpg   Jecklin or 4 mic array for string quartet ?-recording.jpg  

Last edited by studer58; 24th January 2021 at 05:23 AM..
Old 24th January 2021 | Show parent
  #72
Lives for gear
 
tourtelot's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I have used both methods I describe in public concert settings. Special circumstances and safety was clearly job number one. Both work as advertised.

Just curious in the picks. Why a boom at all? Wouldn't a straight stand have worked just as well?

D.
Old 24th January 2021 | Show parent
  #73
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot ➡️
Just curious in the picks. Why a boom at all? Wouldn't a straight stand have worked just as well?

D.
To get the main stand far enough back, so it wouldn't be visible in the camera frame. Cameras were zoomed out fully to get all players in the frame, so their tripods couldn't go any further forward than you see in the pic, so the stand had to move back (and the boom allowed that)
Old 24th January 2021
  #74
Gear Maniac
Yes, I'm referring to closed-set, video-only session for internet broadcast. Still have bags on everything and little orange traffic cones to warn musicians on their phones and guide traffic. It must be admitted, I rather enjoy the controlled environment and ability to spread this gear out as needed. Everyone may be calling it an 'online concert', but it's really a recording...
Old 24th January 2021 | Show parent
  #75
Lives for gear
 
tourtelot's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
To get the main stand far enough back, so it wouldn't be visible in the camera frame.
Of course. Thanks.

D.
Old 25th January 2021
  #76
0VU
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
For keeping stands out of the way of a shot or away from public areas, the Ambient Jumbo Booms give some useful options. I have three of these stands with the 'small' booms and two of the larger type and they've been incredibly useful!

The attached picture shows one of the smaller Jumbo Booms (QP 5190 at 8.6m - for more reach, the larger QP 6200 extends to 11m)). If you follow the boom up, then the pair of Schoeps CCMs it's supporting are visible silhouetted against the window. They're above the central aisle, high enough to be well clear of audience moving around and to allow plenty of space for a crucifer to pass underneath when the choir processes in after opening the carol concert from the west end of the cathedral.

The camera tripod is at about 6ft+ high to enable shooting above the heads of the audience, even when they're standing to sing, and the boom easily clears the camera. There's about another half metre of rise in the boom's stand and around 1.5m of boom length in hand at the stand end. (If you follow the boom down to the left, the little blob on the outside edge of the left side of the stand of the icon thing, is actually the bottom tip of the boom peeping out.)

The pair of CCMs is on a lightweight Rycote stereo bar, joined to the boom by an Ambient Mikelink which enables the bar to freely hang horizontally pretty much regardless of the angle of the boom. Sticking with lightweight mics like CCMs or even full size CMC/MK combinations and carbon fibre or lightweight aluminium bars it's perfectly possible to rig four, or even six mics in this kind of geometry without causing the boom to droop very much. The heaviest thing on such rigs tends to be the cables and XLRs so I made up some lighter weight 2, 4, and 6 channel cables to reduce the problem but, on rigs like this, prefer where possible to stick with small, light mics like CCMs, capsule extended CMC/MK or KM100/KMA sets, or DPA compacts. However, properly counterbalanced, the boom stand setups themselves are very stable and can actually take a surprising amount of weight before the amount of bend becomes dangerous rather than just a bit scary looking! With care, they can even be used to 'fly' a 5 mic surround array! I just like to work with a really big safety margin.

Sometimes, particularly on smaller jobs like chamber music sessions, they might well be overkill and there are times (like long camera shots) when such a long boom on a stand is far more visually distracting than smaller, closer, more discreet stands but if one isn't bothered about what's going on higher up above the players - e.g. no long shots or sparse, white stage surroundings, then they do give one the option of putting the stands way off out of the way whilst getting the mics above/around the ensemble.
Attached Thumbnails
Jecklin or 4 mic array for string quartet ?-choir-pair-west-door-font.jpg  
Old 25th January 2021 | Show parent
  #77
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
It's quite impressive the span that can be covered with telescopic carbon fibre ! In the photos on the Ambient Jumbo Poles, the counterweights seem to be very small...and look visually/intuitively quite scary...I'd be more reassured with a large cast iron counterweight ?
That's all irrelevant if the system is safely counterbalanced over the pivot point...and the base is sand-bagged to overkill hell !

In the photo you've posted, did you have a counterweight attached ?
Old 25th January 2021 | Show parent
  #78
0VU
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
It's quite impressive the span that can be covered with telescopic carbon fibre ! In the photos on the Ambient Jumbo Poles, the counterweights seem to be very small...and look visually/intuitively quite scary...I'd be more reassured with a large cast iron counterweight ?
That's all irrelevant if the system is safely counterbalanced over the pivot point...and the base is sand-bagged to overkill hell !

In the photo you've posted, did you have a counterweight attached ?
Yes, carbon fibre is an impressive material but it does need correct handling in design and specification to work safely and at it's best. The devil is in the details and Ambient seem to be very good at the details. The only thing that very slightly worries me in the back of my mind (and it's no reflection at all on Ambient) is that, unlike a metal stand, carbon fibre has a failure mode that tends to be both sudden and catastrophic. So rather than showing gradual signs of failure over time, e.g bending or going out of shape, before it actually fails, it tends to look and behave fine right up to the point that it just breaks. Whilst these booms are really well engineered by people who know what they're doing, it's important to look after them and make sure one undertakes regular maintenance and checks them on every use for any signs of damage which could lead to a nasty surprise. I do, however, get the impression that the booms are quite over-spec in their design and construction and I've used the oldest of mine for over ten years now with no signs of any problems and I haven't heard of any of them failing in use elsewhere so maybe I'm being over cautious but when they're dangling over people's heads or above fire escapes it's good to pay attention.

There is a counterweight on the boom in the picture; it's just not visible behind the big goddy picture (icon? or whatever it is?). It is only one of the small red/orange ones pictured on the Ambient site but it is a lump of cast iron. They, and the tripod stand are both standard Manfrotto parts. The stand is a Light Boom 35 Black (formery called the 085BS) fitted with a Type 123 "Super Boom Pivot Clamp" (the larger Ambient boom has a bigger diameter and uses a pivot clamp manufacturerd by Ambient - the black and pink(!) one pictured on their site) and the counterweight is the Manfrotto Type 022 G-Peso 7KG. The swivel and counterweight can be bought separately but the complete stand comes with the swivel mount, counterweight and a 085BSL lighting boom pole (2.5m, non-telescopic aluminium). The other stands I have for these booms are Arri branded but much the same as the Manfrotto, also fitted with the Manfrotto or Ambient swivels.

Properly set up, these booms are actually very stable. So much so that it's possible to fit the wheel kit and, on a smooth floor, roll them around (carefully!) whilst extended though I rarely do this. It just takes a moment or two to find the right pivot point and counterweight position along the tail of the boom and the whole thing will balance to sit horizontal (or with really careful adjustment at most other angles) with the clamp fully unlocked. Obviously, the loadings change as the angle and/or reach of the boom change but that just takes a bit of tweaking of the pivot point and/or counterweight position. (If one is using the hanging sandbag counterweight option then it's a fixed position (there's a fixed point for it in the end of the boom) so the pivot point is the main adjustment other than changing the weight of the bag.)

The stand in the picture does have two 10kg sandbags on it's base to add stability but only because, as I said, I'm a nervous nelly when it comes to safety. Once balanced, the stand sits perfectly well without them and will take pretty hard knocks - hard enough to make it slide along the floor - before it starts to wobble and I've never actually managed to make one fall over, even when it's all out of balance whilst being set up so I guess the sandbags are perhaps overkill but I find them reassuring.
Old 25th January 2021
  #79
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Carbon fibre can shatter in the cold, I have seen expensive Satchler tripod legs collapse, but no booms as yet.
Hopefully Churches have underfloor heating to keep the vagrants happy and stop carbon collapse.
Old 29th January 2021 | Show parent
  #80
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher ➡️
I don't remember exactly, but possibly there was a bit of M/S main array blended in, although I'm sure most of what you hear is just the AT4081's
Perhaps in today's market a worthy alternative could be the Samar AL95 ?
Old 29th January 2021 | Show parent
  #81
Lives for gear
 
kludgeaudio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Perhaps in today's market a worthy alternative could be the Samar AL95 ?
It's different but it has much of the same highly-tensioned-ribbon sort of character and is certainly worth looking at.
--scott
Old 29th January 2021 | Show parent
  #82
Lives for gear
 
Earcatcher's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Perhaps in today's market a worthy alternative could be the Samar AL95 ?
I have both the AT's as well as the AL-95's. Since the AL-95's are passive I would actually prefer them, because I can get lower noise levels with my high end preamps if I place them close to the mics than with the AT's. Active ribbon mics usually have more noisy built in pre-preamps. This is also the reason why I recommend against Cloud Lifters and the likes: a good full size preamp simply gives better results than the "stacked" amping that you get with these gizmos.

What is left of course is the difference in sound between the AT's and the AL-95's and that is why I keep both, as they are not sounding the same. The AT's have double ribbons, which gives them more bloom. Sometimes this is desired, sometimes it is not. They also have a less linear frequency response than the Samars, which can be a reason to use or not use them. If I had started out with the Samars, would I have added the AT's? Probably not. I have some Royers (SF-24 and R-122V) and NoHype LRM-V as well.
Old 3rd February 2021 | Show parent
  #83
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo ➡️
Hi Kevin,


I have been collecting both Schoeps and Sennheiser MKH microphones for years. I seriously need to check myself into those 12-step program to stop ever buying more microphones, at least that is what the boss has been telling me. Anybody knows the phone number to my local charter of MHA (Microphone Hording Anonymous)?



When MKH80, then MKH800 were released, I tried them and loved them, especially the omni setting. The small(ish) double capsule omni gives me that certain sound no other mic does, except the Neumann KM56 and SM2, both of these Neumann share the same small back-to-back capsules, similar in principle to that of MKH800. The 800 are expensive so it took me a while to accumulate enough of them before I could do a full swap. I started to experiment with MKH20, 30 and 800, 800Twin and 8020 sometime in 2017. The experiments I did included recording test, acoustic measurement and reverse engineering of the circuitry. One big attraction of MKH800 of course is the proclaimed 50KHz frequency extension over its older sibling MKH80. The extension comes completely by electronic means. All the MKHxx and MKHxxx capsule share the same design. Therefore, the earlier MKHxx microphones all can reach 50KHz if their frequency compensation circuits are modified. With these findings in hand, I modified all my MKHxx microphones to have their frequency range extended.



Sennheiser microphones seem to have the effect of a lens with longer focal length, using an optical analogy here. With longer focal length, the results are further reach, cropped in, showing more detail, at the price of slightly compressed depth perception. Perhaps you can also describe it as cleaner, clear, less room sound and a bit drier. At first, I thought the Sennheiser mics are less romantic but more direct sounding, perhaps might trigger fatigue more easily. Those early conclusions did not seem to stick, thankfully. What I end up doing with Sennheiser mics is worry less with individual voicing and detail but more with room sound.



For string quartet, when I use MKH20/30 MS as stereo main pair, I do raise the height comparing to the Schoeps AB pair, not a lot but it is further. I think it went from 80-88 inches from stage floor to about 100 inches, or more. Again, they do exhibit further reach than MK2H. The MKH800 omni spot ends to be about the same distance as MK2H, at 24 inches. I could move 800 spot further away still get “solo” sound but then it picks up too much adjacent sound source which defeats the purpose. I/musicians usually only listen and adjust the MS pair till we are happy with the desired result and good balance before moving on. I never worry about spots at the session, they are always there and can be used independently in post without much of concern. I tried cardioid and wide cardioid on MKH800 as spot but I didn’t like the sound quality at all, it is all weird and does not mix well with MKH20/30 MS. My MS is omni based I guess only omni spot works? I am not sure why.




Best regards,

Da-Hong
Mr. Seetoo, or Da-Hong if I may, firstly congratulations on your work. I have in fact various of your recordings (ESQ et al), which I always love for the naturalness, musicality and presence. I am an instrumentalist myself (marimba/percussion) and produce some recordings (in a much lower technical standard than most on this thread) and I have long struggled (and seen top engineers/tonmeister struggle) with capturing marimba (5 octave), alone or in chamber settings. I have played/recorded quintets (which I have commissioned) with Tokyo, Arditti and other quartets and seen various techniques used to spot the marimba. Lately I have had interesting results with AB omni + AB cardioid spots, but there is always a lot of bleed from other instruments: the marimba has such huge range, resonance and stereo image. It's often hard to get the detail in lower dynamics in order to accommodate the grandness of the instrument. Perhaps any other solutions I could try? With thanks and best wishes!
Old 4th February 2021 | Show parent
  #84
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedrocarneiro ➡️
Mr. Seetoo, or Da-Hong if I may, firstly congratulations on your work. I have in fact various of your recordings (ESQ et al), which I always love for the naturalness, musicality and presence. I am an instrumentalist myself (marimba/percussion) and produce some recordings (in a much lower technical standard than most on this thread) and I have long struggled (and seen top engineers/tonmeister struggle) with capturing marimba (5 octave), alone or in chamber settings. I have played/recorded quintets (which I have commissioned) with Tokyo, Arditti and other quartets and seen various techniques used to spot the marimba. Lately I have had interesting results with AB omni + AB cardioid spots, but there is always a lot of bleed from other instruments: the marimba has such huge range, resonance and stereo image. It's often hard to get the detail in lower dynamics in order to accommodate the grandness of the instrument. Perhaps any other solutions I could try? With thanks and best wishes!

I do agree with you that a marimba could be rather difficult instrument to record. It is physically big, the high notes and low notes are spread wide apart, the dynamic range can be really big, when using hard mallets can produce transient with very high SPL. Lastly, the vibrato motors often make loud hum which could be annoying. I found it is almost impossible to record marimba in a small studio. Close miking never worked well on marimba for me. You’d better go to a big hall/room. Because it is hard to capture marimba with low leakage in an ensemble, when record marimba with a string quartet, I would favor marimba in the general capture,(stereo pair) even make it slightly over balanced. Then, I would spot all the strings to aid balancing the recording in post since spotting marimba does not really work. Another word, deal with marimba first in sound check. Set the mics for marimba and get the good general sound without the strings playing first. Then you add the strings into the picture. Good luck.



Da-Hong
Old 4th February 2021 | Show parent
  #85
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo ➡️
I do agree with you that a marimba could be rather difficult instrument to record. It is physically big, the high notes and low notes are spread wide apart, the dynamic range can be really big, when using hard mallets can produce transient with very high SPL. Lastly, the vibrato motors often make loud hum which could be annoying. I found it is almost impossible to record marimba in a small studio. Close miking never worked well on marimba for me. You’d better go to a big hall/room. Because it is hard to capture marimba with low leakage in an ensemble, when record marimba with a string quartet, I would favor marimba in the general capture,(stereo pair) even make it slightly over balanced. Then, I would spot all the strings to aid balancing the recording in post since spotting marimba does not really work. Another word, deal with marimba first in sound check. Set the mics for marimba and get the good general sound without the strings playing first. Then you add the strings into the picture. Good luck.
Da-Hong
To accomplish the 'larger than life' main pair picture of the marimba (before adding the string spots) ....would you recommend a relatively low height for the main pair....say 5-7 foot, and not too far in front of the instrument ? Of course you'd want to be far enough away to minimise the motor noise...
Old 4th February 2021 | Show parent
  #86
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
To accomplish the 'larger than life' main pair picture of the marimba (before adding the string spots) ....would you recommend a relatively low height for the main pair....say 5-7 foot, and not too far in front of the instrument ? Of course you'd want to be far enough away to minimise the motor noise...

I would venture to assume if the main pair needs to be that close, the hall might be too small. The marimba bass notes take a large room to develop. Marimba plus a string quartet can spread out to a pretty big foot print to begin with. That was what he was talking about, wasn't he? Ultimately, let ears decide.
Old 4th February 2021
  #87
Lives for gear
 
David Rick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Marimba gets into everything... except sometimes it doesn't get into the elevator without being disassembled first.
Old 4th February 2021 | Show parent
  #88
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
l've been using l/c/r+ lfe on solo marimba for ages (mostly blm3 for lfe) or then a 2.1 system if the marimba is part of a small ensemble...

...but i'm wondering which manufacturer does offer a motor on a marimba?!

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 4th February 2021 at 09:59 AM..
Old 4th February 2021 | Show parent
  #89
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Thank you so much! All the best! P
Old 4th February 2021 | Show parent
  #90
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
I think we mixed up marimba with vibraphone, but I get the gist.
📝 Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 47 views: 28034
Avatar for spiral
spiral 23rd January 2016
replies: 0 views: 632
Avatar for SerialTimbre
SerialTimbre 12th August 2018
replies: 142 views: 15257
Avatar for TC2
TC2 3 days ago
replies: 9 views: 1208
Avatar for ISedlacek
ISedlacek 9th May 2021
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump