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Video lighting solutions?
Old 29th December 2020
  #1
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jnorman's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Video lighting solutions?

I need to up my game on video lighting. Currently just using a single led panel which is too small, too concentrated and too “bright white” and doesn’t play well with warmer room lights. Just saw a dude filming in a church with a pair of umbrellas with fairly largish coiled type 45w/6500k cfl’s and he said he got them from Amazon for $60. I also see a pair of soft box lights with 85w/5200k cfl’s for about $70 there.
Before I buy new lights, I would appreciate hearing what you guys are using, how you deal with mixing video lighting with room lighting, etc, though I need to keep it rather affordable. Thanks.
Old 29th December 2020
  #2
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
You can check out Godox stuff. The problem with cheap lights is that they tend to be all over the place in WB.
Buy a light which you can use gel over so you can match more closely ambient light (would use yellow or orange gel to match warm room lights) if needed.

Whatever light you buy you will want to also buy umbrellas or better yet softboxes to soften the lights so you don't get harsh shadows. Also best to position them above the subjects in 35-45° angle and as close as possible.
Old 29th December 2020
  #3
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
I recently went shopping for video lighting. Started with Godox VL150 which was okay, but the fan kicked on at about 50% power. For not that much more, I decided to get the UL150 which is entirely passively cooled...but it's on back order and I am still awaiting delivery.

The issue I kept running into was that there are 50-100 watt units that are sort of cheap, but underpowered, IMO, and they have fans. The other issue is that I didn't see really great white balance/CRI ratings until I hit the $300ish price point.

The bad news is the cost adds up. When I ordered the UL150, it was on sale for $349. Already had a C-stand needed to support this much weight. ($100-130). Also already had a couple of softboxes that you will need to soften the light. The Aputure lantern is about $90 and might be something to look at.
Old 29th December 2020 | Show parent
  #4
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon1 ➡️
You can check out Godox stuff.
I have 2 Godox VL150s. Great lights. I already had a ton of softboxes from my studio lighting gear so I just swap out the Buff mounts for Bowens when I need to use them on the Godox lights. Just takes a few minutes.

I've never had an issue with the fans and I've run them for long periods of time. The Godox units are quiet and I can't hear them on lavs during an interview.

I also already had light stands out the ying yang. Manfrotto has some 3 stand kits that are built well and reasonably priced. Bit less expensive then C-stands. A sandbag on each and you're good to go.

I also have a set of Apurture LED panels. Never again. They're okay but the power supplies are finicky and the supplied batteries are trash.

Currently saving pennies for some Quasar tubes and higher power Godox lights. The 150s aren't quite powerful enough of your trying to overpower bright ambient light.
Old 29th December 2020
  #5
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
B&H as well as Adorama will sometimes discount some of the stuff they were selling at Black Friday prices between now and year end. You might want to keep an eye out for year end sales....but Godox promotional pricing may have already ended for this season. Idk.

The VL150 is lighter than the UL150, comes with a remote control, and also comes with a padded carry bag. It's certainly a good light and less expensive than the UL150. My thought process was that I wasn't able to get the full output of the VL150 without the fan kicking on, but for $50 more, I could use the entire power of the UL150 without ever worrying about fan noise.

But I agree the VL150 is worth considering. The yoke stays tight and my softbox didn't droop a bit. The color accuracy is good and the power output is also good.
Old 29th December 2020
  #6
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For those with a higher budget, it's worth looking into the reflector-based systems such as Dedo Lightstream, CRLS, and K-flect.

These use a series of specially designed reflectors with varying degrees of diffusion, from mirror-like to extremely diffuse. There are two main advantages to these systems: 1) they require far fewer lights (e.g., you can do three-point lighting for a single musician or duo using just one light, and I can fit my entire kit except for c-stands into a Pelican 1510), and 2) they take advantage of the inverse square law to give you lighting that has a very natural quality and falloff without having to use diffusers and other equipment.

The bad news is that they're expensive and setup requires a bit of time to think through an approach and fine-tune the angles of the reflectors. You can't achieve anything like this using standard reflectors, and for best results you need a parallel beam attachment on your light(s). The kit I use is similar to the one for interviews shown in the youtube link at the end of this sentence; I bought it for some documentary work I'm doing but also for performance videos of my partner and myself (we're musicians); the light, reflectors, and attachments cost me about $3,500 US: https://youtu.be/-C0bHgkRGw8
Old 29th December 2020
  #7
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Lightstream looks like a good solution from Dado
I still haven't forgiven them for using 3 pin XLR for power distribution, it cost me a Schoeps CCM 41 on its first outing when the asst cameraman plugged it into a Dado PSU by mistake...
LED lighting is not good on skin tone , Tungestone is better my Gaffer nephew tells me, parallel beam could improve this .
Old 29th December 2020 | Show parent
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 ➡️
LED lighting is not good on skin tone , Tungestone is better my Gaffer nephew tells me, parallel beam could improve this .
From a practical standpoint the Dedo LEDs are great: they are dimmable (I've never heard any noise from mine when dimming) and you can adjust the color temperature all the way down to tungsten (3,000-3,400K) or even candlelight (2,800K), no need for gels. They do get a little warm, but nothing like tungsten lights, and they're very energy-efficient.

There's a nice video here from Dedo on how to get a golden-hour look with these LED lights and reflectors: https://youtu.be/PDpbW1x-ZdQ
Old 29th December 2020
  #9
Gear Guru
 
joelpatterson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
I took the plunge last summer and got the ESDDI PS-055 Continuous Lighting Kit.

https://www.esddis.com/ps-055

My review, translated from the English.....

The PS-055 lighting kit from ESDDI is an incredible value-- it's solidly constructed, lightweight, and includes an extremely generous assortment of equipment, for starters: four lights with stands that reach up to six feet, two of the lights have brilliantly reflective soft boxes, two lights have dispersion umbrellas. There's even an extra fifth light bulb! As someone else said in another post, the functionality of this gear is exactly what you'd get with the most expensive stuff you could find. There's a delicacy with the clamps and tightening thumbscrews that a gorilla could easily ruin by over-tightening, maybe the truly pro gear is okay for gorillas, so you have to be careful, but I'd suggest being careful is generally a good idea. Part of the reason this entire kit is so lightweight and easy to carry anywhere has to do with the graceful and slender nature of the manufacturing, which is top-notch. ALSO included is a stand that holds three six foot wide fabric screens: green, white and black. Naturally, given the lavish and thoughtful preparation of this kit, the stand has enough crossbars to hold a ten foot wide screen, if you got one some day. For a basic or even quite elaborate photo or video lighting kit, look no further-- you found it! And to give you an idea of their completely over-the-top customer service-- through my own stupidity, I lost one of the soft box covers, and I kid you not, they replaced it free of charge, cheerfully and immediately. Enough said?
Old 29th December 2020
  #10
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
'Portrait artist of the year' on SKY Arts is a good example of excellent soft lighting
The rig consists of a double headed soft light bars , 12 or more on a huge circular rig in a large performing arts space( Battersea Arts Centre in Lavender Hill, its an old Victorian Town Hall)
The intense soft light gives great detail, the 4k TV images are far superior to the portraits, however the painters convey much more of the sitter via their intimate expression.
Worth a look if LED lighting is of interest.
My Gaffer nephew who works on the Crown and Bridgerton says LED stages can get very chilly and need heaters, the exact opposite of Tungstone.
Old 30th December 2020
  #11
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Trying to help jnorman think through what he needs, one issue I had with the VL150 at half power I felt like I had adequate power if the VL150 and softbox were positioned relatively closely. But it seems to me that it would be too close for comfort if, say, I were making a college audition video for someone who wasn't used to having a light in their face (so to speak). If I increased the power to 100%, then I could move the light stand back.

Although there are some $100 lights in the 60 watt range, it seems to me that a lot of people buy them and end up trying to find a use for them later after it turns out that they were simply not powerful enough to use as a main light. To my thinking, they'd have been better off putting that $100 or so towards a more powerful light to start with.

Without the softbox, the lighting was too harsh and too blinding to my liking. Some of the cheaper softboxes will impart a color cast to skin tones. It is important to stick with something that doesn't mess up skin tones.

At least this has been my own thought process going through this.

It might be better to rent a video lighting kit and check the results for yourself first before committing to buying some setup that you might not like.
Old 30th December 2020
  #12
Gear Addict
 
norfolksoundman9's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman ➡️
I need to up my game on video lighting. Currently just using a single led panel which is too small, too concentrated and too “bright white” and doesn’t play well with warmer room lights. Just saw a dude filming in a church with a pair of umbrellas with fairly largish coiled type 45w/6500k cfl’s and he said he got them from Amazon for $60.
It would be useful to know more about what you are trying to light, James. The reference to the current small LED panel suggests somewhere small/close subject; the reference to a church suggests somewhere larger. Perhaps a few stills/frame grabs of typical scenarios would help?

Cheers,

Roland
Old 30th December 2020
  #13
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
What I see on the small semi exterior interview etc jobs I've done this year have been the Arri Skypanels as well as a few small HMI units (usually Arri also) through large diffuser boxes (Rifa etc). The Skypanels allow a huge amount of control over output brightness and color temp, remote controllable even. Besides being expensive, these instruments take some skill to use and control (as well as some grip gear like flags, C-stands and maybe big 4x blacks to make negative fill with) but the extra money and effort is really worth it. We mostly use rental gear--the Arri stuff is too expensive to buy unless you use it a lot, so there is the added hassle of pick up and return. But in pitching this to a producer the rentals are a straight write off expense, and a good rental house will back you up with spares or extras if you need them on the set--will bring them out to you if you can't send someone. They will also make sure you have all the bits and accessories you need to make the gear work!
Old 30th December 2020
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Skypanels, mmmm. Yummy.
Old 30th December 2020
  #15
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hbphotoav's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Accurate, repeatable, consistent color balance across ALL lighting instruments should be the goal... LED is certainly lighter-weight, runs cooler, and is more easily transported than filament lighting... but getting all three considerations (and modifiers... umbrellas, softboxes, any kind of reflectors) and adequate power (lumens) for more than a head-and-shoulders setup puts you into very expensive units.

Having owned a photo studio back in the day, I have a wad of Lowell and Altman fixtures, stands, modifiers and sandbags, as well as some Buff "Killer Beez" strobes for stills work. I know there are plenty on the market, and they're comparatively cheap, but they do generate significant heat, require adequate power and careful handling (especially when moving "hot" instruments) and are not inexpensive to re-lamp.

BUT... they are accurate (3200K; 5600K "daylight" with gels), repeatable and consistent. Fluourescent and inexpensive LEDs? Notsomuch.

As to stands and modifiers and location lighting techniques, there are tons of references in learning to "paint with light" on location.

But, then... I'm old...

HB
Old 30th December 2020
  #16
Gear Maniac
 
Given the normal tendency of this forum to skew toward professional tools at professional prices, many of the lighting recommendations here will not produce similarly professional results across a range of situations.

Lights are expensive - like high end SDCs. You buy a few things for professional $$: color temperature accuracy and flexibility, output, handling/durability, and access to modifiers.

1. If you need to match room light, color temperature flexibility is important unless you carry gels and know how to use them.

2. Output. The LED moonlights and panels for a few hundred $$ are good for solo head and shoulders shots (90+ percent of YouTube stuff). They are entirely NOT adequate for two person interviews, lighting a drum kit, or a room. I have several - they are useful, but I don't use them as main lights. They are good for altering shadows, hair lights, and other misc tasks. These lights without modifiers do not produce great light for people - it isn't soft enough. If you want great light, you need big soft boxes, and they need more light - think 160w to start to get good exposures for a 5' Octabox. The Apurture 300x, 600x and new 1200x are about the right place to start if you need to light rooms or scenes. The Broncolor F160 also fits and gives access to one of the best line of modifiers in the business. There is a reason that video professionals rent or buy HMI lights at 8-10k.... They do something low powered LED's don't.... If you want pro light on a budget, look for the KinoFlo florescent stuff - it is available at 30% of the new price as the industry switches to an LED preference, but it is great, high-quality light. Especially for green screen work.

3. Handling/durability. You get what you pay for. Pro Lighting companies with years of professional experience build stuff to last. Schoeps and DPA last a long time. So do pro lights, and they are a pleasure to use the entire time. Buy real C-Stands too and sandbags.

4. Access to modifiers. Modifiers are the equivalent of mic placement. This is where the art of lighting happens. How soft, how is the falloff, how much or little is the wrap around the face. This stuff matters. This is where professional results diverge from all the YouTubers with $200 of light + cheap softbox. Sure it looks better than cell phone. But it does NOT look like professional work. A 5' Octabox will take almost $2k in stands and booms to use it well. But that will give glorious results. You want access to the best modifiers, ProFoto and Broncolor have huge ranges. You will be looking at beauty dishes used by the fashion industry. You will want lanterns that can go on a big stand and make great light for a whole room with an HMI or big LED light inside.

Bright lights, color control, and great modifiers on appropriate stands is what is required for great video. I think it is unrealistic to think one can buy some low end GODOX stuff on Amazon and compete with video professionals who have $30k in lights and know how to use them.

The goals of the poster are unclear. So if the lights are for improving a home Zoom setup or starting a little YouTube channel, buy anything - it will help. But if the goal is to do video at a current professional level, then the investment is going to be more like a good immersive surround rig made of German SDCs. And just like high-end and remote recording, the ancillary equipment cannot be overlooked. It is a system purchase. Great light on $50 flimsy aluminum stands doesn't make any sense - the modifiers weigh more than that stand and will tip it over....

Video is a deep well. And much more expensive than audio to do well. Good luck whatever your goals are.
Old 30th December 2020
  #17
Gear Maniac
 
Also know that the kind of lights that fill a room, whether HMI or LED will have fans. You put 500 or 1200 or more watts into a housing and you have to dump the heat somehow. Big light usually involves fans. Microphone choice will be affected, or you will become good friends with RX-8....or both.
Old 30th December 2020 | Show parent
  #18
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by niversen ➡️
Access to modifiers. Modifiers are the equivalent of mic placement. This is where the art of lighting happens. How soft, how is the falloff, how much or little is the wrap around the face. This stuff matters. This is where professional results diverge from all the YouTubers with $200 of light + cheap softbox. Sure it looks better than cell phone. But it does NOT look like professional work. A 5' Octabox will take almost $2k in stands and booms to use it well. But that will give glorious results. You want access to the best modifiers, ProFoto and Broncolor have huge ranges. You will be looking at beauty dishes used by the fashion industry.
There's no need for ProFoto, Broncolor or even Elinchrom modifiers. I would never even put up the cash for their studio lights for my photography work.

I've been using Paul Buff lighting gear for 20 years. I've upgraded strobes over the years but a lot of the modifiers I have are 15-20 years old. It's great gear. The bang for buck ratio is very good.

For the Godox video lights, they accept a Bowen speed ring. If you pick up modifiers that are not Bowen mount, like the Buff ones, you can get adapter speed rings from Cheetah Stand. There are two sizes and I have a couple of both. Takes just a few minutes to change the mounts.

A decent C stand will set you back $150-200. A longer boom might be another 100. A sandbag is cheap, necessary, insurance. A 47" Buff octa is $170. Depending on what you need, you may not even need one that big. Round it off and call it a $500 investment plus the adapter ring and whatever you decide on for lights.

That's just my half cent after 20 years of being a photographer...
Old 31st December 2020
  #19
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
I appreciate others speaking up and entering this discussion. Thank you all.

I tend to think that getting with a rental house to see what they recommend and then testing it may be the most cost effective option as opposed to continually buying a bunch of low end stuff that may never quite get the desired results.
Old 31st December 2020 | Show parent
  #20
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smslavin ➡️
There's no need for ProFoto, Broncolor or even Elinchrom modifiers. I would never even put up the cash for their studio lights for my photography work.....

...A decent C stand will set you back $150-200. A longer boom might be another 100. A sandbag is cheap, necessary, insurance. A 47" Buff octa is $170. Depending on what you need, you may not even need one that big. Round it off and call it a $500 investment plus the adapter ring and whatever you decide on for lights.
The Broncolor and ProFoto modifiers are not expensive - their lights are. Their biggest modifiers are a few hundred dollars - cheaper than Mola beauty dishes used in the fashion industry. These modifiers are substantially better made than anything else on the market. They are also rated for the heat that 800W HMI lights put out. This is a significant difference to photo use where there is essentially no heat from the strobes. Most video gear is not used in a studio but constantly put up and taken down. The durability and quality of the hardware shines in this environment. There's lots of things that can work, but truly excellent modifiers are not expensive. I've rented the ProFoto and own Broncolor modifiers - both are excellent and a pleasure to use in time constrained situations. I started with modifiers junkier than the Godox ones - but like a lot of things, once you've used the truly excellent stuff, one's opinion shifts....

C-stand pricing is spot on.

I don't want to hang big modifiers over people/expensive instruments loaded with $10k hot lights on a photo boom with a C-stand underneath. These are MUCH heaver than strobe heads. My 5' Octabox is on a geared Manfrotto 425B arm that lets me adjust every angle, tilt and elevation from the ground and a rolling Junior stand. The boom is counterweighted, the stand triple-sandbagged and can safely put light out on a 12' boom arm, completely out of the shot, but still putting gorgeous big soft light close to talent. Extra hassle? Yes. But it saves time and offers safe precision when it counts. But, really, its the same effort that goes into putting a big mic array above performers. I absolutely use the same lights on straight C-Stands when I need that - but to boom them overhead with big modifiers on those same C-stands? I've chosen not to.

This thread has had one consistent complication. The original poster did not describe a budget or a use case. We have all given advice based on substantially different use cases.

I have attempted to represent part of what a video professional is likely to bring or want, and that is not repurposed photo gear, and it is not low power Godox 60w LED monoheads. The equipment I've mentioned is admittedly overkill for single talking head on YouTube.

But to light a pianist or a small chamber ensemble in a real room to the equivalent standards that any of the fine audio engineers in this forum would deploy for audio? I'm suggesting that is going to take a different approach. There are directors and directors of photography out there who take video lighting as absolutely seriously as the engineers here take selecting a DPA vs. Schoeps based on all kinds of subtle factors, and who would have definite opinions on 48V vs. 60V mods, battery powered pre's and more. Just like audio, there is a world where cost is not the first concern, and compromise is simply not acceptable in any way.

Arri, Litepanels, KinoFlo, Broncolor, K5600/JokerBug, - there's many others. But they do exist for a reason - these are the standard tools of the video production industry. And they are often rented, as also observed in this thread - for very reasonable rates that can get billed with the job. A compromise might be the best decision for many uses. But given the kinds of significant once-a-lifetime projects many on this forum record, it only seems right to also represent the video equivalent of the exceptional audio rigs maintained and deployed here.
Old 31st December 2020 | Show parent
  #21
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by niversen ➡️
I have attempted to represent part of what a video professional is likely to bring or want, and that is not repurposed photo gear, and it is not low power Godox 60w LED monoheads. The equipment I've mentioned is admittedly overkill for single talking head on YouTube.

But to light a pianist or a small chamber ensemble in a real room to the equivalent standards that any of the fine audio engineers in this forum would deploy for audio? I'm suggesting that is going to take a different approach. There are directors and directors of photography out there who take video lighting as absolutely seriously as the engineers here take selecting a DPA vs. Schoeps based on all kinds of subtle factors, and who would have definite opinions on 48V vs. 60V mods, battery powered pre's and more. Just like audio, there is a world where cost is not the first concern, and compromise is simply not acceptable in any way.
Total agreement with you.

I'm a buy once, cry once guy and also a firm believer in investing in the gear that gets you the gigs you want to do. Can you make less expensive gear work in the short run? Absolutely. Is that the best option? Not always. As you mentioned, the last thing you want is a setup to come crashing down on someone's head. Bad for them, worse for you.

The 425B is an excellent arm. I have two of them that I use with 86" umbrellas and they do not move. I don't drag them out for my video work because the spaces I'm working in aren't that big.

For me, lighting is first, then sound. I spent a long time learning lighting in my own studio and have spent the last few years transferring that to my video work. It's the most fun aspect of this whole thing.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #22
Here for the gear
 
robcameron's Avatar
 
at night i often go out to the backyard , for a very long time i want to put the light there, but there is no time
Old 3 weeks ago
  #23
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Gaston69's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Lighting

Arrilite 800 (set of three 800 watts tungsten) delivered with stands in a flight case can be had for approx 700 Euros (eBay)
Old 3 weeks ago
  #24
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Aputure Amaran 200x

I just bought the Amaran 200x from Aputure. Bicolor LED and a very quiet fan sounded interesting to me. The Godox UL150 is also nice. Dead quiet( no fan) but only daylight. I went the aputure route this time
Old 3 weeks ago
  #25
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I have these which I dearly love. https://www.amazon.com/GVM-Video-230...s%2C176&sr=8-4 They work GREAT, they give GREAT adjustable light, they can be powered by batteries or a power adapter and they are very reliable and last a long time on batteries. FWIW
Old 3 weeks ago
  #26
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king2070lplaya's Avatar
I just installed 2 of the Godox UL150 in a video-centric space on campus, with 2 big softboxes for our specific needs. They are passively cooled and totally silent, and I’m thinking I may grab a pair myself. Paired with the Aputure Fresnel 2X heads, that should be a pretty solid combo for distantly lighting the live chamber ensembles I tend to record, when extra lighting is needed.

I’m really trying not to become a live music videographer, but it’s such an in-demand skill at the moment, and you hate to turn down good paying work . Now, getting called for gigs as a cameraman, I guess I don’t mind getting called for that work too much.... Who doesn’t love cool camera gear?!

Last edited by king2070lplaya; 3 weeks ago at 04:41 PM..
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #27
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by niversen ➡️
Given the normal tendency of this forum to skew toward professional tools at professional prices, many of the lighting recommendations here will not produce similarly professional results across a range of situations.
This info is exactly what I've been looking for.

I'd also love to know---is there a specific light you'd recommend for recording soprano+piano in a nice auditorium or church?
-There would be 1 camera only at a distance to fit both piano+soprano in the frame. The pianist doesn't matter at all, but the soprano should look beautiful. Basically, I think I'm looking for a way to 'beauty-light' her face/hair.
-The light would need to be very quiet as audio is the primary focus.
-Portability would be very helpful (the light would need to go on a plane).

I have been looking at Rotolight Aeos and Anova LED's. I have their smaller Neo2 lights and they are nice, just too dim at 15'+ to do much.

https://www.focuscamera.com/rotoligh...4aAkn8EALw_wcB

But this is the first I've heard of some of the 'pro brands' you mentioned. I saw some so-called pros do some truly horrendous lighting at operas & recitals over the summer---I'd love to know what someone actually skilled would do.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #28
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tourtelot's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Not to be Dougie-downer, but. . .

I think it's interesting that if a cameraman comes on this blog and asks, "How do I become a skilled location soundman", half laugh him off the site and half patiently explain that it takes years of training, skill-sharpening and and mentoring to become a good audio engineer and not to forget, thousands of dollars of gear.

If my experience is to count, after years in the movie industry working with real Hollywood cinematographers and gaffers, what I have seen for video "lighting" in the past year is merely to throw up some LED panels and call it good. Sort like me putting up a couple of EV635s on a couple of stands, recording to Audition (nothing inherently wrong with either piece of gear) and calling it good.

No video for me, thanks. I am too long in the tooth to study and master a totally new craft. I say, call a video cameraman and hope he knows how to light.

Or call it good.

D.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #29
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
If you have the Hollywood budget and Hollywood expectations, I see your point. A lot of that gear is being rented for the specific application and the rental written off as expense.

But if you have enough use for them, some of these Godox and Amaran lights could improve on video quality, but you'd need to have enough work to justify paying for them. I'd suspect many clients can't afford both a recordist and a separate cameraman. So I think there is some reason to consider being able to offer these services.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #30
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tourtelot's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Sorry. Can't afford both? Don't get both. Easy.

D.
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