Quantcast
Pipe organ recording equipment and technique - Page 6 - Gearspace.com
The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Pipe organ recording equipment and technique
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush ➡️
When deciding how apportion one’s budget for recording, there are strict guidelines. Let’s simplify by saying that one concentrates ONLY on optimizing the source. Once you have a good acoustic, good player, and good instrument, one puts ALL their resources into the up front gear. The microphones, the preamps, and the converters.

If you don’t do it according to optimizing the SOURCE SOUND, one loses detail and nuance forever. Never able to ever be recovered or improved later.

Your decision is made for you by following this maxim.
Unfortunately when you work with organs and organists, often the instrument is already decided, good acoustics or not. I am often contracted as engineer to document organ sound for state and church subsidised projects, so picking the best source is no option. They pick it for us, so I can only hope for the best organist, an organ-builder that checked/tuned the instrument and that's it. Organist is first, microphone placement is second, cheap microphones always give a nice sound on single stops, complex stop combinations (full work, plenum = all registers open) you need good microphones and a lot of experience.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #152
Lives for gear
 
kludgeaudio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orgeltonmeister ➡️
Unfortunately when you work with organs and organists, often the instrument is already decided, good acoustics or not. I am often contracted as engineer to document organ sound for state and church subsidised projects, so picking the best source is no option. They pick it for us, so I can only hope for the best organist, an organ-builder that checked/tuned the instrument and that's it. Organist is first, microphone placement is second, cheap microphones always give a nice sound on single stops, complex stop combinations (full work, plenum = all registers open) you need good microphones and a lot of experience.
This is true but sometimes you can change the acoustics even if you can't change the instruments. Sometimes you can bring in some foam pads and some carpet or, if you need to go in the other direction, you can remove the cushions from the pews.

And you have the issue that the microphones that are a good pick in one room with one instrument might not be the best pick in another room with another instrument. This is what makes it interesting.
--scott
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #153
Lives for gear
 
Plush's Avatar
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orgeltonmeister ➡️
Unfortunately when you work with organs and organists, often the instrument is already decided, good acoustics or not. I am often contracted as engineer to document organ sound for state and church subsidised projects, so picking the best source is no option. They pick it for us, so I can only hope for the best organist, an organ-builder that checked/tuned the instrument and that's it. Organist is first, microphone placement is second, cheap microphones always give a nice sound on single stops, complex stop combinations (full work, plenum = all registers open) you need good microphones and a lot of experience.
May I suggest that you have misunderstood the point of my post. I am arguing strongly for ONLY using the best microphones, the best preamps, and the best converters. Never any cheap mics or less than the best front end on the recording chain. Stop guessing.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #154
Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio ➡️
This is true but sometimes you can change the acoustics even if you can't change the instruments. Sometimes you can bring in some foam pads and some carpet or, if you need to go in the other direction, you can remove the cushions from the pews.

And you have the issue that the microphones that are a good pick in one room with one instrument might not be the best pick in another room with another instrument. This is what makes it interesting.
--scott
When I am working on an audio-documentation of a historical instrument I am not allowed to change the acoustics artificially. Room and organ are both historical objects and belong together. I have to treat them as fixed concepts. The point in this thread is that the OP wants to document his instrument as realistic as possible.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #155
Lives for gear
 
kludgeaudio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orgeltonmeister ➡️
When I am working on an audio-documentation of a historical instrument I am not allowed to change the acoustics artificially. Room and organ are both historical objects and belong together. I have to treat them as fixed concepts. The point in this thread is that the OP wants to document his instrument as realistic as possible.
Hmm...but as soon as the audience walks into the room the acoustics will change completely.  Are
you not even allowed to add damping to simulate the effect of the audience?
--scott
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #156
Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio ➡️
Hmm...but as soon as the audience walks into the room the acoustics will change completely.  Are
you not even allowed to add damping to simulate the effect of the audience?
--scott
Well, yes that is a good point. We have discussed the differences in sound caused by people or no people in the venues where those historical instruments are placed, and decided to go for empty rooms, because in case of re-intonation and restoration, the organbuilders will work in a room not occupied by an audience.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #157
Gear Maniac
 
Peter Allison's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio ➡️
This is true but sometimes you can change the acoustics even if you can't change the instruments. Sometimes you can bring in some foam pads and some carpet or, if you need to go in the other direction, you can remove the cushions from the pews.

--scott
why try and change an acoustic tho, it is what it is, its either a cavernous Gothic Cathedral type building or a heavily carpeted place
carpet is an organists nightmare, PPC's love them to try and keep the place warm

Last edited by Peter Allison; 4 weeks ago at 01:28 PM..
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #158
Gear Maniac
 
Peter Allison's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Just to add that as Plush says, "ONLY using the best microphones, the best preamps, and the best converters" is a must, but sound quality can be ruined by bad mic placement, and that is by many big name companies, who do a great job with other genres (I have 1 CD in my meagre collection, played by one of the worlds top keyboard players, but let down by a so so recording). Sadly there are many very amateur sound recordists who do this (recording organs) just as a hobby (me included since June 1986)
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush ➡️
May I suggest that you have misunderstood the point of my post. I am arguing strongly for ONLY using the best microphones, the best preamps, and the best converters. Never any cheap mics or less than the best front end on the recording chain. Stop guessing.
In your post you wrote:"Once you have a good acoustic, good player, and good instrument, one puts ALL their resources into the up front gear."

I only wanted to note for documentation purposes there is no choice of acoustics and instruments. They are chosen by some kind of a boarding or institution. And as Peter wrote,"it is what it is, it's either a cavernous Gothic Cathedral type building or a heavily carpeted place", and the instruments are not always in the best shape, but yes, we use top gear and top organists, but experience is the most important factor.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #160
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Allison ➡️
Sadly there are many very amateur sound recordists who do this (recording organs) just as a hobby (me included since June 1986)
'Sadly' Peter? Why so?!

By the way, I've been enjoying the new Percy Whitlock organ sonata (Darius Battiwalla) SACD that, while not recorded by you, was, I read, sponsored by you! I think you may have been in Rochdale during at least some of the recording, so any comments on Jake Purches's recording technique might be of interest here (five 8020s, with only the three LCR forward mics for the stereo version, I think?).

Cheers,

Roland
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #161
I found this on Jake Purches, go to 1.09.25 there he starts to talk about his recordings. He seems to be a guy like Leonardo da Vinci, jumping into anything and just doing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0pSkeDoVuU
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #162
Gear Maniac
 
Peter Allison's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 ➡️
'Sadly' Peter? Why so?!

By the way, I've been enjoying the new Percy Whitlock organ sonata (Darius Battiwalla) SACD that, while not recorded by you, was, I read, sponsored by you! I think you may have been in Rochdale during at least some of the recording, so any comments on Jake Purches's recording technique might be of interest here (five 8020s, with only the three LCR forward mics for the stereo version, I think?).

Cheers,

Roland
yes, I was there for the actual recording. An enjoyable experience it was Along with the 5 8020's, he has a couple of Neuman's and an Octava mic (like the Tetra) but they were just to try out for his own experimentation, and were not part of the final SACD mix.Cannot put a name to his pres and DSD recorder I think Jake has some photos of the setups in the hall. I was quite taken with his very tall yellow stand with large extendable supports, would reach any french Gothic organ including
St Sulpice and Rouen
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #163
Gear Maniac
 
Peter Allison's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orgeltonmeister ➡️
I found this on Jake Purches, go to 1.09.25 there he starts to talk about his recordings. He seems to be a guy like Leonardo da Vinci, jumping into anything and just doing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0pSkeDoVuU
Jake Purches is a very talented young man, and while unsure about his photo processes. His recording, may seem like "jumping in", BUT a lot of thought, measurements and listening to the room is taken into consideration prior to hitting the record button for a "take"
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Allison ➡️
Jake Purches is a very talented young man, and while unsure about his photo processes. His recording, may seem like "jumping in", BUT a lot of thought, measurements and listening to the room is taken into consideration prior to hitting the record button for a "take"
Comparing someone with Leonardo da Vinci is a compliment, isn't it?

I also found this:

https://www.nativedsd.com/catalogue/...-organ-sonata/
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #165
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Allison ➡️
yes, I was there for the actual recording. An enjoyable experience it was Along with the 5 8020's, he has a couple of Neuman's and an Octava mic (like the Tetra) but they were just to try out for his own experimentation, and were not part of the final SACD mix.Cannot put a name to his pres and DSD recorder I think Jake has some photos of the setups in the hall. I was quite taken with his very tall yellow stand with large extendable supports, would reach any french Gothic organ including
St Sulpice and Rouen
Thanks for this Peter. Glad you were there. I was with him at the test and recce for his first serious recording, at St Etienne, Caen (with Jean-Paul Imbert), when I made a short film for him (a fund-raiser), but otherwise it has been emailed notes and photos as we compare our very different audio adventures (as I think you know, Jake is my oldest friend, back from school days). By the way, I'm sure his 'Neumanns' are NT2as, which he didn't use. And, yes, the pneumatic mast is such a good purchase for organ recording.

Cheers,

Roland
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #166
Lives for gear
 
Plush's Avatar
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orgeltonmeister ➡️
In your post you wrote:"Once you have a good acoustic, good player, and good instrument, one puts ALL their resources into the up front gear."

I only wanted to note for documentation purposes there is no choice of acoustics and instruments. They are chosen by some kind of a boarding or institution. And as Peter wrote,"it is what it is, it's either a cavernous Gothic Cathedral type building or a heavily carpeted place", and the instruments are not always in the best shape, but yes, we use top gear and top organists, but experience is the most important factor.
Nope. We always moved around to many different organs in all kinds of different states and different countries. Always chosen by type of repertoire to be performed and the acoustic. France, Switzerland, Italy, Spain etc. We had the budget to do it because we were working for real record companies.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #167
Lives for gear
 
hbphotoav's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush ➡️
Nope. We always moved around to many different organs in all kinds of different states and different countries. Always chosen by type of repertoire to be performed and the acoustic. France, Switzerland, Italy, Spain etc. We had the budget to do it because we were working for real record companies.
"Real budget" always helps...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #168
Gear Head
 
Good morning.
I had the chance to record another organ (I don't publish the files because they are just test files), and I had a big surprise: my AT4022s/Clarett recorded this organ surprisingly well! I was very surprised.

I ask you: has it ever happened to you that a very good live acoustic is mediocre or bad in recording and vice versa a bad live acoustic is beautiful in recording?

I'm starting to think that what I can't get from my church is for bad acoustics..
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #169
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Organist ➡️
(...)I ask you: has it ever happened to you that a very good live acoustic is mediocre or bad in recording and vice versa a bad live acoustic is beautiful in recording. (...)
yep - a recording is NEVER a 'correct' representation of what can get experienced in the room.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #170
Gear Head
 
Good morning.
I am seriously considering purchasing two cardiode microphones to complement my two AT4022 omni. In this way I would have the possibility to experiment with different types of miking, even in combination with omni (my Clarett has 4 mic pres).
Would it be a good idea to buy Audio Technica microphones to keep the same "sonic footprint", or could I combine other brands?
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #171
Lives for gear
 
hbphotoav's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Organist ➡️
Good morning.
I am seriously considering purchasing two cardiode microphones to complement my two AT4022 omni. In this way I would have the possibility to experiment with different types of miking, even in combination with omni (my Clarett has 4 mic pres).
Would it be a good idea to buy Audio Technica microphones to keep the same "sonic footprint", or could I combine other brands?
If you can "try before you buy", you can "learn" mics while trying technique. Can you borrow or rent "likely suspects"?

In my case... my prime cardioids are MKH8040 ($2200 for the pair, IIRC), bought for a series of choral festivals nearly 15 years ago. I heard them "in the wild" via a mentor who recommended them, and they have served admirably. My secondary pair are Line Audio CM3 ($250 for the pair, with lots of references on this forum... do a search) purchased strictly upon forum chatter and posted samples. Likewise, they are still in the mics locker. Less used are a AT4041pair, and my first "real" mics, purchased for a choral record done in 1979 in Waco, Texas. It was a choice between Sony C55FET and AKG C451. I chose the Sony pair. That recording led to another in 1981, and I was off and running. Still have them, but they have become noisy through the years.

Bottom line...? If your AT omnis "float your boat", and you want "similar"... Buy more AT. If you want a different "flavor"... there are several great choices in several price ranges. There is no "rule". Choose... wisely.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #172
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbphotoav ➡️
If you can "try before you buy", you can "learn" mics while trying technique. Can you borrow or rent "likely suspects"?

In my case... my prime cardioids are MKH8040 ($2200 for the pair, IIRC), bought for a series of choral festivals nearly 15 years ago. I heard them "in the wild" via a mentor who recommended them, and they have served admirably. My secondary pair are Line Audio CM3 ($250 for the pair, with lots of references on this forum... do a search) purchased strictly upon forum chatter and posted samples. Likewise, they are still in the mics locker. Less used are a AT4041pair, and my first "real" mics, purchased for a choral record done in 1979 in Waco, Texas. It was a choice between Sony C55FET and AKG C451. I chose the Sony pair. That recording led to another in 1981, and I was off and running. Still have them, but they have become noisy through the years.

Bottom line...? If your AT omnis "float your boat", and you want "similar"... Buy more AT. If you want a different "flavor"... there are several great choices in several price ranges. There is no "rule". Choose... wisely.
Thanks!
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #173
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
yep - a recording is NEVER a 'correct' representation of what can get experienced in the room.
Thanks!
Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #174
Here for the gear
 
Pipe organ recording with Zoom H5

I have had good experience with the Zoom H5 for organ recordings. It has the identical microphone amplifier as the Zoom H6, but has only 2 channels instead of 4 (H6). For home use, the built-in X/Y capsules provide a noise-free, decent sound that I also use for video recording. Semi-professional results can be achieved when using an external stereo microphone pair. If you don't have the budget for Neumann or Schoeps, I recommend the SE 8 SE Electronics with the Omni capsule as a matched pair (Thomann). When recording, I work with a 4m high boom stand and am about 10 to 11m away from the organ. The two microphones in A B position are about 50 cm from each other. I found out the right recording distance by trial and error, starting with 8m, 10m, 11m and 12m. At 8m, the bass foundation was too strong, so I increased the distance.

I'm lucky that the organ and listener are on the same plane, which makes recording much easier. The reverberation time is about 2 seconds and the reverberation radius is about 4m. The organ itself has 32 stops and 2130 pipes, an electronic setting system and goes down to 32Hz, it is from Jehmlich Orgelbau in Dresden (Germany) and was built in 1981. First recording attempts with cardioid microphones from Gefell (modified by Andreas Grosser Electronicservice) and M94 capsules also give very good results, but cannot reproduce the bass foundation of the organ that well. I noticed that the treble reproduction and clarity with the external microphones is significantly better than with the built-in capsules from Zoom, which is certainly not surprising. I gave up recording with two large-diaphragm microphones at a distance of 10 m (UM 70 capsules and MV692 from Microtech Gefell) after one attempt, because the bundling of the high frequencies was noticeable here. The result was not satisfactory. For speech and vocal recordings, the UM70 capsules are an excellent choice.
Attached Thumbnails
Pipe organ recording equipment and technique-orgel_bms.jpg  
Attached Files

Adagio A_Marcello.mp3 (4.05 MB, 86 views)

File Type: txt church service.txt (38 Bytes, 4 views)
📝 Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 203 views: 73981
Avatar for kludgeaudio
kludgeaudio 26th February 2021
replies: 45 views: 24888
Avatar for voltronic
voltronic 3rd September 2016
replies: 4 views: 3733
Avatar for DaveyJones
DaveyJones 29th April 2015
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump