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Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #1261
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 ➡️
The tricky thing is I’m not versed in biology and medicine, and neither is she, and neither are most people. So it ultimately comes down to beliefs and faith, because there are scientists talking convincing jargon that people don’t understand in every direction. Combating with another confusing video full of stuff no one knows about doesn’t actually do anything.
Yeah, it is complicated. That is why I am trying to use arguments that do not depend on medical knowledge. Like trusting an information channel that has been going for more than a decade over one that was started last month. Or looking at track record.

Talking about track records, Dr. Daniel Griffin is the head medical expert for the pro-health group. (That group has over 300 health care locations and a 50 year track record). He is an Associate Research Scientist in the Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biophysics at Columbia University. He is an instructor of Clinical Medicine and he treats COVID-19 patients every day (and discusses cases in the clinical updates). That women in the video isn't treating any COVID patients. Just fear mongering. (She sells anti-vax books and an anti-vax course for over $600 in which she explains how to spread disinformation and doubt. )

Here some of his scientific publications: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Daniel-Griffin-3

Vincent Racaniello, the host of the podcast, is one of the authors of "Principles of Virology", a standard university virology text book and besides that there are literally thousands of hours of video of him discussing the latest scientific research in virology and related fields over the last decade.

Here some of his scientific publications: https://academictree.org/microbiolog...php?pid=225903

The clinical update podcasts are technical and are partly meant for Griffin's own staff but it is also meant for laymen with no medical background and they cover listener questions each episode. It is still complex but not nearly as bad as purely technical or scientific discussions.

Anyway, not sure any of this helps to convince your mum but the info is out there for people wanting to understand and learn more.

Alistair
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #1262
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams ➡️
CDC reported that outdoor transmission rates were below 10%. That was a whopper. It's actually .1%. No matter here in California, masks are still "mandatory" outdoors although there is no legislation to enforce any of those "guidelines". Most in bars/music venues are now ignoring those, only a few still wear them out.

In response to being recalled, our Governator Newsome has elected to bribe everyone in this state with a $600 check. If you are here illegally, you will get a $500 check. That might exceed the 11 billion dollars they gave away to prisoners for "unemployment compensation". If you come here and sign up, you will get one too.
I got off your lawn 18 years ago. Moved from CA to Vermont.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #1263
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow ➡️
Yeah, it is complicated. That is why I am trying to use arguments that do not depend on medical knowledge. Like trusting an information channel that has been going for more than a decade over one that was started last month. Or looking at track record.

Talking about track records, Dr. Daniel Griffin is the head medical expert for the pro-health group. (That group has over 300 health care locations and a 50 year track record). He is an Associate Research Scientist in the Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biophysics at Columbia University. He is an instructor of Clinical Medicine and he treats COVID-19 patients every day (and discusses cases in the clinical updates). That women in the video isn't treating any COVID patients. Just fear mongering. (She sells anti-vax books and an anti-vax course for over $600 in which she explains how to spread disinformation and doubt. )

Here some of his scientific publications: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Daniel-Griffin-3

Vincent Racaniello, the host of the podcast, is one of the authors of "Principles of Virology", a standard university virology text book and besides that there are literally thousands of hours of video of him discussing the latest scientific research in virology and related fields over the last decade.

Here some of his scientific publications: https://academictree.org/microbiolog...php?pid=225903

The clinical update podcasts are technical and are partly meant for Griffin's own staff but it is also meant for laymen with no medical background and they cover listener questions each episode. It is still complex but not nearly as bad as purely technical or scientific discussions.

Anyway, not sure any of this helps to convince your mum but the info is out there for people wanting to understand and learn more.

Alistair
You’d think that would work. But all of this academic validation and track record is tossed aside with completely closed ears thanks to a simple word that’s been increasingly hammered home in certain large circles of influence: “indoctrination.”

One word that sows mindless distrust in the foundation of humanity’s progress, that completely wipes out logic, reason, the history of the scientific method, critical thought, and a personal responsibility to educate oneself with the best validated knowledge available.

It’s wild stuff. I used to fight it but it’s overwhelming and exists at a foundational level where the specifics can’t even come into play. I’m increasingly just accepting that people will believe what they want to believe, there’s f-all anyone can do about it, and why waste my life being bothered by it. That’s the wrong answer to it but at a personal level I don’t want to feel non-stop angst given the choices in belief most of my family members have made.
Old 4 days ago
  #1264
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
@ newguy1 what are some choices in belief most your fam members made?
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #1265
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by boombapdame ➡️
@ newguy1 what are some choices in belief most your fam members made?
I feel like the answer will get my post deleted. The whole shebang. Basically whenever you hear “20% of Americans believe in xyz crazy thing,” the majority of my family members are on board with it. The vaccine stuff, the things that people are getting ousted from Congress for pushing against, etc etc etc.

For me it’s become an exercise in not letting ideology infect personal relationships. Which is rough.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #1266
A guy I spoke to today (has a kid at the same school) had a very bad reaction to a first shot of AZ vaccine all day shivers then pain in a leg. Was hospitalised for one night and given blood thinners to ward off any possible thrombosis. Jeeze! Not my experience with a first shot of AZ, All I suffered was soreness where the needle went in and even that that was only if I rubbed or pushed in hard on my arm.

Due my 2nd AZ shot this Sunday. Quietly confident it will be OK. Fingers crossed!
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #1267
Lives for gear
 
JCBigler's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams ➡️
CDC reported that outdoor transmission rates were below 10%. That was a whopper. It's actually .1%. No matter here in California, masks are still "mandatory" outdoors although there is no legislation to enforce any of those "guidelines". Most in bars/music venues are now ignoring those, only a few still wear them out.

In response to being recalled, our Governator Newsome has elected to bribe everyone in this state with a $600 check. If you are here illegally, you will get a $500 check. That might exceed the 11 billion dollars they gave away to prisoners for "unemployment compensation". If you come here and sign up, you will get one too.
Where do you have to sign up for the free check? And how long do you have to be in California to get one? I spent almost 2 months in California during 2019. $600 is almost worth the drive from Oklahoma.
Old 2 days ago
  #1268
The CDC has announced that masks are not needed if you are inoculated. The president announced this while all the vaccinated secret service agents around him wore masks.

Here in California, outdoor mask wearing is mandatory until at least June 15th. I've been approached by a few maskholes in full Karen mode so now I use one of my old NAMM show pass holders to wear my CDC vaccination card around my neck when I go out.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #1269
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams ➡️
The CDC has announced that masks are not needed if you are inoculated. The president announced this while all the vaccinated secret service agents around him wore masks.

Here in California, outdoor mask wearing is mandatory until at least June 15th. I've been approached by a few maskholes in full Karen mode so now I use one of my old NAMM show pass holders to wear my CDC vaccination card around my neck when I go out.
I'm so borrowing this idea!
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #1270
Lives for gear
 
NorseHorse's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams ➡️
Governator Newsome has elected to bribe everyone in this state with a $600 check. If you are here illegally, you will get a $500 check. That might exceed the 11 billion dollars they gave away to prisoners for "unemployment compensation". If you come here and sign up, you will get one too.
Cool! Your post prompted me to do a little research. I learned that 6% of California's population is undocumented, and that they make up 10% of the workforce (and even more in essential sectors). And don't forget that "illegal" just means the federal government chose not to document someone, even though they could. And did you know that 2/3rds of undocumented residents have been in the US for more than a decade? Living, working, and paying taxes but not qualifying for ANY aid. So, yeah, it sounds smart for a state to make sure that 6% gets a tiny tiny sum of money that will go straight to food, rent, utilities, debts. Not a single cent is wasted when you are giving money to regular people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/u...alifornia.html

P.S. Don't forget that people in prison have families too. (And that the prison population is largely black and brown thanks to continuing racist policies/policing and the War on Drugs.)

So, yeah, as one of the many engineers who had ALL GIGS CANCELLED, I really feel for anyone who was in the same position, and I think the amount that we did in the US was pitiful and shameful. Should have been $2K checks every month for a year, direct.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #1271
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorseHorse ➡️
Cool! Your post prompted me to do a little research. I learned that 6% of California's population is undocumented, and that they make up 10% of the workforce (and even more in essential sectors). And don't forget that "illegal" just means the federal government chose not to document someone, even though they could. And did you know that 2/3rds of undocumented residents have been in the US for more than a decade? Living, working, and paying taxes but not qualifying for ANY aid. So, yeah, it sounds smart for a state to make sure that 6% gets a tiny tiny sum of money that will go straight to food, rent, utilities, debts. Not a single cent is wasted when you are giving money to regular people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/u...alifornia.html

P.S. Don't forget that people in prison have families too. (And that the prison population is largely black and brown thanks to continuing racist policies/policing and the War on Drugs.)

So, yeah, as one of the many engineers who had ALL GIGS CANCELLED, I really feel for anyone who was in the same position, and I think the amount that we did in the US was pitiful and shameful. Should have been $2K checks every month for a year, direct.
Yeah the wealthy are hoarding money, 12 trillion is sitting in the .01%'s closet with billions more taken out of economic circulation by them every week, but lets rail at poor and oppressed people. Most every economic issue's root cause is that the "trickle down" agreement was not honored by those who said they'd trickle down, who hoard instead. But let's vent at poor people. This stuff kills me

https://fortune.com/2020/07/14/billi...avirus-crisis/
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #1272
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams ➡️
I've been approached by a few maskholes in full Karen mode . . .
Finger-waggers are sorry folk - desperate to control other people.

Here in Vermont, the governor has more or less declared mask mandates over, but our very PC city council here in Montpelier has insisted we still mask up. We are expanding our business and need to have our customers feel at ease in our space. Hopefully the restrictions will loosen by the time we open. As it is, the average age in central Vermont is like, 87, so everyone's been jabbed.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #1273
Lives for gear
 
JCBigler's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorseHorse ➡️
So, yeah, as one of the many engineers who had ALL GIGS CANCELLED, I really feel for anyone who was in the same position, and I think the amount that we did in the US was pitiful and shameful. Should have been $2K checks every month for a year, direct.
That still would have left me behind by nearly 25% for the year. I was making nearly that amount every week after per diem and benefits. $2,000 sounds like a lot when you're working minimum wage. But it's barely enough to wipe your *** with when you're making $30-40 or more per hour. Add in that I have not been allowed to file for unemployment of any kind for 8 months now and losing out on the last two stimulus payments and the $1,800 of LWA money that the President approved last summer.

I'm sure that I'm just one of many millions in the same boat. 15 months after the start of the pandemic, and 14 months shutdowns, with a complete changer over in executive and legislative leadership; and our government still can't get it's act together and process the unemployment claims. And now they are pushing to get rid of the extra unemployment money so they can get people back to work. And my job may not still come back until next spring, if it does at all, if I'm in a place to be able to go back out on the road.

I'm about fed up with the totally inept, totally incompetent, overreaching, overbearing and holier than thou bureaucracy of this country that serves solely as a jobs program for the stupidest people in our country. I'm about 87% of the way to the "burn it all down and start over" mentality.

Yeah, I'm a little bit bitter. Okay, a lot bitter actually.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #1274
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler ➡️
I'm about 87% of the way to the "burn it all down and start over" mentality.
I'd be down with everyone completely refusing to work until the 800 families who are hoarding half the US economy release the money back into the economy.

They did not trickle it down as promised in the 80s, that's a field tested failure of an economic experiment.

So we go back to something like 1950s/1960s tax rates of 96% (you know. . the golden years everyone pines for when wealth distribution was much more balanced), or we make hoarding anything more than 10% of your wealth (if you're net worth is above a certain threshold) more criminal than drug trafficking, as it does a whole lot more damage to a whole lot more people (every single person in the US outside those 800 families). Make offshore banking illegal etc etc, no tax havens, no hiding money, you hide money you end up in the same prison facility as violent criminals. If you want to live in the US you have to keep your money active in the US economy. If not, move, go live somewhere else, and lose all privilege to doing business in the US.

The government has sucked at responding to the unemployment crisis, but that's a side issue, hardly the core of the problem.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #1275
Lives for gear
 
JCBigler's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 ➡️
Yeah the wealthy are hoarding money, 12 trillion is sitting in the .01%'s closet with billions more taken out of economic circulation by them every week, but lets rail at poor and oppressed people. Most every economic issue's root cause is that the "trickle down" agreement was not honored by those who said they'd trickle down, who hoard instead. But let's vent at poor people. This stuff kills me
BS. Horse hockey. And Balderdash.

I don't fault anyone for making money off of their innovations, hard work, and good decision making. That's what our entire economic system is built on. That's the incentive for innovation and competition.

What you are talking about is wealth redistribution; the government taking money away from one group of people and (ostensibly) giving it to another group of people.

Well, in 2020 the government directly took over $60,000 from me. And will take at least that much for 2021. I want every last cent of that money back. But it will never happen, because the untouchable ruling class in this country will never be held personally responsible for the choices that they make that affect other people.

There's an old saying: give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach him to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime. Well, over the past 14 months the government has stepped in for our own good and not only taken away our fish, bur also prohibited us from fishing. So our families can starve in order to keep others from dying. **** 'em.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #1276
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler ➡️
BS. Horse hockey. And Balderdash.

I don't fault anyone for making money off of their innovations, hard work, and good decision making. That's what our entire economic system is built on. That's the incentive for innovation and competition.

What you are talking about is wealth redistribution; the government taking money away from one group of people and (ostensibly) giving it to another group of people.

Well, in 2020 the government directly took over $60,000 from me. And will take at least that much for 2021. I want every last cent of that money back. But it will never happen, because the untouchable ruling class in this country will never be held personally responsible for the choices that they make that affect other people.

There's an old saying: give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach him to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime. Well, over the past 14 months the government has stepped in for our own good and not only taken away our fish, bur also prohibited us from fishing. So our families can starve in order to keep others from dying. **** 'em.
Nope. Sorry. We're way past "rewards for innovation and hard work" and into a completely unbalanced economy that rewards a small set of hoarders at the expense of everyone else.

I'm all for upward mobility as a work/innovation incentive, but wealth distribution needs to stay near the 80/20 point. Right now its 99/1. The current economic system is stacked against everyone but 800 families, and that includes YOU. YOU are getting f'd in the rear by 800 families, and somehow have been duped into being their apologist cause of 60k in taxes, which is nonsense money by comparison to the 1% that sits you firmly in the "getting f'd by the 1%" position. Wake up. If half the economy being held hostage in people's closets were released, you'd be making considerably more money, have considerably more opportunity, and probably have considerably lower tax rates in your bracket.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #1277
Lives for gear
 
JCBigler's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 ➡️
The government has sucked at responding to the unemployment crisis, but that's a side issue, hardly the core of the problem.
No, that is very much the whole core of the issue. We've raised an entire country, multiple generations now of stupid, lazy people who want to be rewarded for doing nothing, and don't have the intellectual capacity to create, innovate, and take risks.

Used to be that evolution would filter those people out of the gene pool through natural selection. Now there's so many of them that the smart, industrious, and capable ones are being removed through artificial selection.

Mike Judge made a movie about this 20 some years ago. It's called Idiocracy.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #1278
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler ➡️
No, that is very much the whole core of the issue. We've raised an entire country, multiple generations now of stupid, lazy people who want to be rewarded for doing nothing, and don't have the intellectual capacity to create, innovate, and take risks.

Used to be that evolution would filter those people out of the gene pool through natural selection. Now there's so many of them that the smart, industrious, and capable ones are being removed through artificial selection.

Mike Judge made a movie about this 20 some years ago. It's called Idiocracy.
Since 1978 CEO compensation has grown 940% while worker compensation has risen 12%. That's one of hundreds of statistics that demonstrate a gross imbalance in economic growth over the past 40 years that has nothing to do with how hard people work.

Idiocracy is people like yourself, getting f'd in the rear by the 1% year in and year out, attributing income inequality to stupid lazy people and not the 800 families hoarding the economy.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #1279
Lives for gear
 
JCBigler's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 ➡️
The current economic system is stacked against everyone but 800 families, and that includes YOU. YOU are getting f'd in the rear by 800 families, and somehow have been duped into being their apologist cause of 60k in taxes, which is nonsense money by comparison to the 1% that sits you firmly in the "getting f'd by the 1%" position. Wake up. If half the economy being held hostage in people's closets were released, you'd be making considerably more money, have considerably more opportunity, and probably have considerably lower tax rates in your bracket.
100% wrong.

Me and family are being f****d by the government and their progressive agenda that dictates that our well-being and prosperity don't qualify as part of the "greater good".

What you are talking about is exactly the same as what the Taliban did in Afghanistan, or the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, or Chavez in Venezuela, or the Soviets in Russia, or any of a multitude of other examples of wealth redistribution.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #1280
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler ➡️
100% wrong.

Me and family are being f****d by the government and their progressive agenda that dictates that our well-being and prosperity don't qualify as part of the "greater good".

What you are talking about is exactly the same as what the Taliban did in Afghanistan, or the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, or Chavez in Venezuela, or the Soviets in Russia, or any of a multitude of other examples of wealth redistribution.
No, its what America did in the 1950s and 1960s.

You got f'd by the government ever since trickle down economics were introduced, which taxes average poor and middle class people like yourself much higher and lets the wealthy off the hook because they're supposed to trickle it all down which they didn't do. Your angst is entirely misdirected.

The solution does seem to need to be drastic at this point, hence your "I'm 87% ready to burn it all down" sentiment. The CORE ISSUE though is wealth hoarding, not the government's various reactions to wealth hoarding. EVERYTHING ELSE falls into place with an economy closer to 80/20.

By all means, wealthy people, trickle it down like you said you would! Then the government could leave everything alone. They broke their end of the "trickle down" deal though so action of some kind must be taken.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #1281
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Capital redistribution is nice in theory, but it won’t happen spontaneously....through the guilty beneficence of the wealthy. This process usually has involved bloodshed and tears before bedtime...revolutions are rarely armchair sport events, check Stalin’s treatment of the kulaks as but one example of many through history. Any trickling-down of wealth will be preceded by that of vital irreplaceable bodily fluids.
Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #1282
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow ➡️
To be clear, it wasn't an agreement that they would trickle money down. It is the insane theory, part of the madness of neo-liberal economics, that the wealth trickles down by itself. It is the lie that it is these people that drive the economy when in reality it is the people that produce stuff or services that drive the economy while the ultra rich tend to rentier parasitically on the system.

Alistair
Yes, the theory was a lie to begin with, a field tested failure now.

It was essentially an agreement though, I’ve found the framing of “they didn’t hold up their end of the trickle down deal” and “they broke their end of the deal” etc to be more powerful in opening people’s eyes.

“The government lied to you” seems to wash over closed eyes because you hear it all the time in so many ways, but “that wealthy person broke their end of the deal with you” makes it a bit more personal. . . Which it is!
Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #1283
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 ➡️
Yes, the theory was a lie to begin with, a field tested failure now.

It was essentially an agreement though, I’ve found the framing of “they didn’t hold up their end of the trickle down deal” and “they broke their end of the deal” etc to be more powerful in opening people’s eyes.

“The government lied to you” seems to wash over closed eyes because you hear it all the time in so many ways, but “that wealthy person broke their end of the deal with you” makes it a bit more personal. . . Which it is!
Your narrative is certainly a better than "The government lied". Not least because it wasn't the government that came up with these theories. It wasn't the government that lied.

It was a concerted effort from conservative corporate interest over 5 decades to change economic views and policies. It started in the early 70's after the Powell Memorandum was published (not publicly) which describes a plan to wage war on academia, media, politics, and the legal system to counter liberal trends and restraints on capitalism.

It is similar to the concerted efforts of the tobacco industry and the oil industry to undermine trust in science, each for their own reasons. The government is not the enemy in this case. Many politicians (on both sides of the spectrum) believe(d) these theories but they are not the origin. They are just "useful idiots".

This is more pernicious than "the government lied". IMO the only way to deal with this kind of thing is education. Education and time. (On the positive side, the political pendulum tends to swing back after a while anyway and the pandemic seems to have accelerated that swing).

Alistair
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