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Recording a Gong
Old 8th April 2020
  #1
Here for the gear
 
Recording a Gong

Hello,

I'm brand new to this forum. I am looking for a few answers with regards to how to record gongs. I know it's among the more difficult instruments to record and it involves a lot of trial and error. Therefore, before investing a bunch of money into microphones, I would like to get some expert suggestions.

As for now, I want to record handmade Paiste Planetary Gongs, but in the future as well as handmade titanium gongs.

I have read through other threads but they're old and I also want to consider more current equipment.

The location is a round building with around 1500 sqft. It's part of an older church, usually utilized for yoga classes.

I am thinking of using one AEA N8 or another big condenser mic in front of the gong for the room sound, and one SM-57 behind each gong for the near field.

As for the connection to the computer to record the gongs, I think about the M108. I'd really like to get the ULN-8 but I won't be able to get it in time.

Any recommendations and advice are very welcome. Thank you :-)
Old 8th April 2020
  #2
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
i used to work for paiste in the 90's and recorded all their instruments at the time as we had plans to develop/manufacture/sell a sampler, together with a partner company (paiste used to collaborate with the fraunhofer institut before and did distribute mi gear in several countries so colaboration wasn't anything new).

my take on recording gongs:
by all means, do NOT use dynamic or ribbon mics to record gongs - they simply cannot capture their frequency spectrum (or just in a very limited/'distorted' way)! - you want to use highly sensitive, high ouptut, low noise mics (and stellar preamps) for this!

i used sanken, schoeps and b&k (and/or occasionally akg and soundfield) mics, sometimes neumann ldc's: up to three mics (or even five on the very large instruments) in different positions and at different distance, in front of the gongs and usually two pairs for ambient sound or as 'main' pairs, the distant ambient (spsced) pair often behind the instruments.
too bad ramsa/panasonic/technics wasn't interested in developing/manufacturing the sampler anymore (after a heavy earthquake hit japan in the mid-nineties) and other companies pulled out after initial interest as they thought costs would be way too high, our demands above their heads* and/or for a couple of other reasons...

...so the sampler never materialized.

for live use or orchestra recording, a single ldc behind the gong mostly does fine - i wouldn't go any closer than 50cm; where in terms of the diameter largely depends on what you are trying to achieve!



* looking back, it's kinda funny to note that evil b. was amongst them :-)

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 8th April 2020 at 11:55 PM.. Reason: edited/some details added
Old 8th April 2020
  #3
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🎧 10 years
Fig 8s sound good, either sdc or Ribbon, not too close.
The rear lobe enhances the room.
Old 8th April 2020 | Show parent
  #4
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 ➡️
Fig 8s sound good, either sdc or Ribbon, not too close.
The rear lobe enhances the room.
A second mic up close to the edge can be good for tastefully adding in a little "whooom."
Old 8th April 2020 | Show parent
  #5
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
the most fun you can have with two fig8's when recording a gong is to put one in front and one in the back, equidistant to the gong when not played - when played, the gong moves and sound moves in and out of phase...

...or use contact mics as stockhausen occasionally did (in "Mikrophonie II" if i remember correctly - probably not as he was such a pita to work with...): much fun when feeding into a harmonizer and pitch it down two octaves!

again: absolutely no love for ribbons (for this application) due to their severely limited hf representation: in fact, i was using the sanken mics for their extended hf range (and they did the heavy lifting on the recordings)!
Old 8th April 2020
  #6
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apotheosis's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
When I recorded Bernstein and Gershwin for 2 pianos and percussion, I had the time to experiment with my mic collection.
Mains on the whole were MS instead of my preferred omnis, as rightly suggested by Yannick to avoid double attacks with all percussive instruments.
Best result out of NTR, KM183, KM184, DPA4011, DPA4006, MK4, CM3, AT4050 was... My good old Shure SM81! There was close to no definition in the mains pickup, and too little weight of the sound. The SM81 added enough body and attack without booming uncontrollably. Unexpected winner!
Old 8th April 2020 | Show parent
  #7
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by apotheosis ➡️
(...) My good old Shure SM81! There was close to no definition in the mains pickup, and too little weight of the sound. The SM81 added enough body and attack without booming uncontrollably. Unexpected winner!
lol - pretty sure the orchestra did not use paiste's planet gongs for this though...
Old 10th April 2020
  #8
Here for the gear
 
Thank you everyone!! I am still confused about the ribbon's. I hear quite a few very pleased people that love ribbons for their natural sound. In terms of the frequency spectrum I agree, they're kinda limited from what I saw.

Saw that apotheosis talked about the KM184, I have looked at this and also the MKH8040, where the 8040 seems to be a bit better in terms of handling high SPL. It would be quite an investment to get a stereo pair of those...

deedeeyeah - when you mentioned sanken mics for extended hf, were you talking specifically about the CU-55 or another one?
Old 10th April 2020 | Show parent
  #9
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dxwolf ➡️
(...)when you mentioned sanken mics for extended hf, were you talking specifically about the CU-55 or another one?
i don't remember, they (unfortunately) were not mine - possibly the cu-41 back then? - sanken has newer mics which go up to 100khz (as does sony and maybe a few more) - in any case, funny to compare their specs with say an rca44...

there's a fine line between an accurate and a pleasing recording: getting both is a difficult thing to achieve as with gongs, one largely depends on the room (as with many other instruments of course, only that larger gongs imo need quite a bit of air around them to breath and one better cares about room properties/nodes when position gongs for optimum results).

how many of the planet gongs do you have? - there were some prototypes at paiste back in the early nineties which unfortunately didn't make it into regular production: some of them were quite large and the marketing department thought they'd become too expensive...
...which in retrospect turned out to be a joke as it was only a few years later when we got into manufacturing much larger instruments: no planet gongs though!
Old 10th April 2020
  #10
Here for the gear
 
That's ok, I have never paid attention to Sanken... now I am also getting their lavalier mic 😂.

I have currently two planet gongs and a few of those trigons.
https://www.amazon.ca/Martin-Bläse-P.../dp/B07HZYBFLJ

The room is something that might change, so that's more a factor that I cannot influence. I thought a room mic would be good, as well as two of the MKH8040 in a 45deg angle in front of the gong, and one mic behind the gong.
With the price range of mics I am not sure if Ill be ok with a 300 dollar mic, like the aston orion or if it's worth spending probaby at least 1000 per mic...
Old 11th April 2020
  #11
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Plush's Avatar
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Mic a gong with two good omni mics at 67 cm distance apart.

An excellent sound.

Experiment with how close you go to the gong. No closer than 3 feet.
Old 12th April 2020 | Show parent
  #12
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush ➡️
Mic a gong with two good omni mics at 67 cm distance apart.

An excellent sound.

Experiment with how close you go to the gong. No closer than 3 feet.
I'm wondering if propagation behaviour of a gong has been studied and measured...for example would one get better blending of all tones by miking directly out front from of a gong, level with the beater, or going higher...or would behind it be ok too ? How about directly above, to catch edge radiation components ?
Old 12th April 2020 | Show parent
  #13
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
what else do you think did we do at paiste?!

lots of work by a german mathematician who helped paiste designing the tuned gongs, some work from the fraunhofer institut für angewandte forschung for which paiste privided gongs when they were working on something which became kniwn as mp3, the work i mentioned in a previous post (recording instruments for a yet-to-be-designed sampler)...

trouble is that none of these papers will ever get published (if they still exist - which i doubt, for reason i cannot disclose here!)...

good new is though that the physical model behind gongs is no different from bells as used throughout europe and which is relatively simple by comparison to chineses bells (aka 'bianzong' - check the wiki article as a starting point; see pic below) which are incredibly sophisticated and have two very unique properties: the fundamental can get heard and they allow for two different notes to get played/heard.

many european church bells got damaged in ww2 yet a considerable amount of work went into restoring and replacing them: paiste's knowledge to some extent bases on post-war findings; since bells cannot easily get transported (as they weight tons), recordings were used to compare old/intact bells with new/restored bells; afaik almost none of these recording were done using a stereophonic mic approach - for various reasons, one of which is though that any instrument with lots of transients doesn't get portrayed very well when using spaced mics (transient 'smearing')...


...so no, i do NOT recommend using spaced omnis! regarding your other questions, yes there is a good deal of knowledge available too but i don't want to turn this thread into a gong tutorial beyond the point i possibly already did (sorry for that)....

happy rabbit hunting everyone - and don't forget to listen to gregorio allegri's misere these days... - love and peace!

mr gong-guru
Attached Thumbnails
Recording a Gong-wuhanbells.jpg  
Old 12th April 2020
  #14
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Thank you deedeeyeah....now I know exactly where to locate my mics to record a gong, from your detailed guidance
Old 12th April 2020 | Show parent
  #15
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
nothing stops you from going ahead with plush's simplified approach...

wondering though what repeatedly makes it so difficult for you to accept that there's mostly more than what meets the eye?! not all things can get boiled down to a simple receipe or else the image gets distorted beyond recognition - if you're happy with that, maybe better post in the newbie thread but pls stop musing about things you obviously don't know about or don't get!
Old 12th April 2020
  #16
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Nothing is set in stone that I would necessarily use Plush's spaced Omni approach....or any other for that matter.

I was simply asking if there is any particular mic placement in 3D space around a gong that might produce the best results...and all I got from you was allusion to black arts, copyrighted theory that must never be revealed...and no constructive advice or guidance regarding my questions.

I don't need to bow down in homage before the High Priest of Paiste....I just want hints on recording a gong. If that is top secret info, I'll just make my own experiments...using Omni, cardioid, fig 8 and boundary layer...until I get a satisfactory result. I'm even happy to share my empirical findings and audio samples here, wth no intellectual property strings attached....
Old 12th April 2020
  #17
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Plush's Avatar
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
I posted a suggestion that reproduces what the ear hears.

Also keep in mind that we do not listen to a gong at close range. We listen in the room / concert hall / church.

Much of my experience comes from recording very large bells such as the super large Zygmunt bell in Krakow.

Also recording Gamelan ensembles where the equivelant of many smaller "gongs" are played in an ensemble.

No amount of so-called "scientific research" will get you closer to a good recorded gong sound.

Just experiment.
Old 12th April 2020 | Show parent
  #18
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush ➡️
No amount of so-called "scientific research" will get you closer to a good recorded gong sound. Just experiment.
Experimenting has always paid off for me, although if that process can be informed with some research underpinning, regarding an instrument's typical radiation modes, I'm willing to let that on board too.

Let's take a concert tam-tam, for example...I'm guessing it's either a spherical or a fig 8 radiator, with a few frequency specific nodes thrown in too ?
Old 12th April 2020 | Show parent
  #19
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush ➡️
I posted a suggestion that reproduces what the ear hears.

Also keep in mind that we do not listen to a gong at close range. We listen in the room / concert hall / church.

Much of my experience comes from recording very large bells such as the super large Zygmunt bell in Krakow.

Also recording Gamelan ensembles where the equivelant of many smaller "gongs" are played in an ensemble.

No amount of so-called "scientific research" will get you closer to a good recorded gong sound.

Just experiment.
nice try...

it would be interesting to have a discussion under which condition a spaced omni pair is the best approximation to the way we hear...

i'm not saying that it cannot lead to pleasing results: i did however mention one of the limitations of this technique which doesn't go away by repeated claims of its alleged superority.

also, i wouldn't belittle some of the work of one of europe's leading academic institute by saying it's 'so-called academic research': it clearly led to results which are in the possession of the gong manufacturer so you'll never hear about it (which i admit is a shame).

let me add that all of the previously mentioned efforts were in addition to the work with leading percussionists from all genre, from all over the world (including those from the orchestra you recorded a lot btw although some percussionist were gagged by the section leader...) over several decades:
all of this work included recording of instruments, discussed not only with the percussionists but also conductors, composers, sound engineers.

my job was to coordinate things (and to record instruments under all different circumstances, using proven approaches but also cutting-edge technology) which led to a body of expertise which seems to be attractive enough to profit from that i still get called to do exactly this: to record all sorts of percussion instruments.

'experiments'? it's more about knowledge in my case...


Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Experimenting has always paid off for me, although if that process can be informed with some research underpinning, regarding an instrument's typical radiation modes, I'm willing to let that on board too.

Let's take a concert tam-tam, for example...I'm guessing it's either a spherical or a fig 8 radiator, with a few frequency specific nodes thrown in too ?
the term 'tam tam' unfortunately made it into the literature: pls note it was 'invented' by a snobbish englishman in the 19th century, trying to find an 'exotic' name for whatever reason...

if you're interested in radiation patterns, put a relatively flat cymbal upside down on a cymbal stand and put some sand on it... - rather complex patterns, almost impossible to predict and largely depending on a couple of factors such energy with which you hit it, proportions of the mallet/stick, where you hit it, alloy, thickness, form/shape (determined by hammering/lathing) leading to an endless amount of possible patterns...

...which i hope explains why i was reluctant to comment in detail.

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 4th May 2020 at 12:52 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 12th April 2020
  #20
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Ive recorded gongs ,bowls and English Church Bells.
All are a challenge and there are many approaches that work
Now is the ideal time for Church bells, the backgrounds being so transparent.
English bells sound very different from their Continental cousins, and many are very old.
The sound of them phasing across the countryside is enigmatic and very pleasing.
Old 13th April 2020 | Show parent
  #21
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norfolksoundman9's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 ➡️
Now is the ideal time for Church bells, the backgrounds being so transparent.
Well, far from ideal here in Norfolk - a county with so many medieval churches all locked up, and with their bells silent (I guess some automated bells, such as those at the cathedral, are still ringing the hours/quarters etc.).

Cheers,

Roland
Old 13th April 2020 | Show parent
  #22
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 ➡️
Well, far from ideal here in Norfolk - a county with so many medieval churches all locked up, and with their bells silent (I guess some automated bells, such as those at the cathedral, are still ringing the hours/quarters etc.).

Cheers,

Roland
Something to get you by while waiting for the tolling to return:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc0FJanrq84
Old 2nd May 2020 | Show parent
  #23
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 ➡️
Ive recorded gongs ,bowls and English Church Bells.
All are a challenge and there are many approaches that work
Now is the ideal time for Church bells, the backgrounds being so transparent.
English bells sound very different from their Continental cousins, and many are very old.
The sound of them phasing across the countryside is enigmatic and very pleasing.
It might not have been intentional, but to me this reads as a very lovely poem. I will accept beauty wherever it might appear.
Old 20th January 2021 | Show parent
  #24
Here for the gear
 
deedeeyeah, I am all down for learning but man I could really use some help. I've asked the gong "masters" I know, reached out to Gongs Unlimited, have searched high and low on the interwebs - and have found you as well. People either don't know or don't want to share their wealth of knowledge.

My purpose is this: I'm a sound healer in the age of pandemics and I'd like to get ahead of the game by getting this technology down. A lot of sound healing attendees are not interested at all in virtual sound healing. It's like trying to get a 4 year old to eat something that isn't candy. BUT - I truly believe that if attendees get a badass sound system, and gong players get a badass recording system, it would work. Unfortunately most gong players are also of the mindset that they are completely not interested, or they think it's still good because their friends are the attendees and will go through the scratchy/feedback/yuckiness (I don't get it.) I do want to "get" the best way available to us right now. I know we're not to discuss serious social issues or "politics" and I don't think I'd be infringing those rules to allude the notion that COVID is pandemic #1 ... I truly see a future in virtual sound healing.

I can understand that people in the industry don't want to share information because they've worked so hard to know it and don't want to "give" it away. There are also no paid ways of receiving this knowledge (currently, that I've come across... or not, for that matter.) I am ready to level up with technology, and I'd love to learn from a person with experience like you. I would love to "experiment" like Studer85 but to be honest I'm not exactly in a place where I can afford to do that, as fun as it seems to be. I started out with an SM7B cardioid, recommended by an acquaintance and got a UR22MKII interface. Yes, I know, that's not what I need. I was able to send the mic back and am looking for what's next. I have a 24" Moon Gong (her name is Moon Ji) and she's a unique symphonic. Not like any other symphonic I've played. In fact, she was kind of a brat to figure out, but maybe that's why we pair well.

My percussion career began at age 10 with the drums. I recorded with my all girl band at 13, and again with a college band at 24. I don't know much about recording but from those experiences I know a few things. I also know that gongs are akin to bells because of their wave like vibration and goes out and comes back, and repeats. No other instruments play like those two. It can easily be said that there are a variety of factors which play into the quality of recording/streaming this sound:

1. The room. >What is ideal? I'd like to see a scale with graphic examples of what's ideal ranging to what is cringeworthy. (Most people are doing this in a bedroom or living room. We KNOW it's not ideal. What are some things we can do to mitigate its ****tyness? Could a solution be something like hanging "walls" of thick drapes from ceiling to floor, and having that part of the ceiling covered in something like a mattress topper? Thinking in cost effective ways.)

2. Mics > Okay this depends on the gong. So what would be a recommended a mic for each size, or group of sizes from 24" to 48"? That's what most gong players are playing right now. Could various mallets affect the type of mic needed as well?

3. Placement > depends on the mics and the sizes of the gongs. At this point we'd need a dichotomous tree, and I'd be happy to create it if I had the info. The amount of time it would take to create that, just like the value of the knowledge put in it, should be compensated for by recipients - yes?

4. Interface/Apps/Computer set up > I reckon this is pretty standard? Maybe the variable is between the interface and the mic?

Clearly gong players are going to have to adjust their space accordingly, so let's give them an ideal place to start and let them make their own deviations. We can start with what is right/recommended and see what comes of it.

I just made my Gearslutz account to respond to you, but I think you can pm me? Deedeeyeah, seriously, if you gave me the info I'd make the graphics. If you fancy the *idea* of expansion and innovation, send me a message. Admire it, learn it, become it, share it. Right?

Otherwise, it's really pitiful to see gong dealers hoarding this knowledge. It sends a clear message that they want to control, by putting a ceiling on their clientele. They don't even offer this equipment or tutorials for it, and honestly that's a bunch of bull in this day and age.
Old 20th January 2021 | Show parent
  #25
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gong_Girl ➡️
(...)
1. The room. >What is ideal? I'd like to see a scale with graphic examples of what's ideal ranging to what is cringeworthy. (Most people are doing this in a bedroom or living room. We KNOW it's not ideal. What are some things we can do to mitigate its ****tyness? Could a solution be something like hanging "walls" of thick drapes from ceiling to floor, and having that part of the ceiling covered in something like a mattress topper? Thinking in cost effective ways.)

2. Mics > Okay this depends on the gong. So what would be a recommended a mic for each size, or group of sizes from 24" to 48"? That's what most gong players are playing right now. Could various mallets affect the type of mic needed as well?

3. Placement > depends on the mics and the sizes of the gongs. At this point we'd need a dichotomous tree, and I'd be happy to create it if I had the info. The amount of time it would take to create that, just like the value of the knowledge put in it, should be compensated for by recipients - yes?

4. Interface/Apps/Computer set up > I reckon this is pretty standard? Maybe the variable is between the interface and the mic? (...)
hi gong_girl and welcome to this site!

short answers:

1. imo there is no such thing as an 'ideal' room - this goes for any instrument or group of instruments though except that i think there is something like a useful relatisonship between the volume/spl, frequency range and transients and the size of a room; what feels fine and sounds good is suitable.
there is a forum for acoustics/studio building on this site for anything dealing with optimizing room acoustics; better to ask specific question there.

2. a good mic is a good mic so no, the choice of mic does not depend (much) on the gong (or any other instrument for that matter): consider the mic(s) to be just the messenger(s) - same for mallets: different mallets get you different sounds from the instrument but imo should not affect the mic choice...
... unless you are trying to capture something in a way that only a specific mic is able to do, say to go very low or high (in frequency and/or level) etc - we're talking mic design and technique in general here though so too much to convey in a short answer.

3. you don't necessarily need a scientific approach to get good results and we're again touching on the subject of mic technique - i very strongly believe the what sounds 'good' is good! - trouble is that people have vastly different criteria/taste/desires/needs etc. so even a technically stellar representation of an instrument may not move some people much while others already rave about rather poor recordings...

4. mic preamp/desk/converter/interface/pc plus use of filters/dynamics/efx: there are endless ways to shape the signals! good quality gear is always favoured, especially when recording under less than ideal conditions but yes, most interfaces these days are of decent quality.

let me add this:

5. as a healer, i'm sure you are aware of the importance of the 'therapeutic relationship': personally, i'm a bit sceptical how well this can get established/maintained over the phone/via internet but then, i'm no music therapist (my girl friend is) so i cannot tell (much) about their experience with 'remote therapy' during the pandemic - if someone listens via a capable speaker systems, the 'sensation' can be quite moving.

6. there are limits in terms of signal transmission when connecting via internet (and before: mics can never fully capture what one can hear when playing or standing in front of an instrument) so do not expect people to experience the same what you do - how much of a limitation this is for your patients is hard to judge: most likely, some will easily adapt and can cope with it, others might be less pleased if not irritated...

feel free to pm me anytime (and we then can maybe talk via phone) - anyone else who's into gongs (and/or cymbals) as well!

___


p.s. regarding your instrument: is she from the paiste planet series? if so, i have a pretty good idea of her sound even without having heard this specific instrument (as i got to work with the entire range of gongs pretty extensively).

astronomically speaking it is of course nonsense to speak of a moon as a 'planet' but there was the wish to break this division and to add sun and moon to the series. regarding their manufacturing/sound, they are indeed based on the symphonic gongs but there's more to them - again, happy to share details via pm/phone but i think it would lead too far in this thread...

...which brings me to something which seemed a bit strange to me when reading your post: i really don't think that 'gong dealers [are] hoarding this knowledge'?! if someone is making a big fuzz out of things, there is a chance that s/he doesn't really know much about the topic and is only pretending to have some deeper knowledge... - my advice is to skip them and turn to folks who are willing to share :-)

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 20th January 2021 at 10:51 PM.. Reason: edited twice, p.s. added and typo
Old 1st February 2021 | Show parent
  #26
Here for the gear
 
Thank you for sharing!! This is great info. I truly appreciate it and will send you a PM
Old 1st February 2021 | Show parent
  #27
Here for the gear
 
Thank you for sharing your knowledge! I am going to reach out with a private message as well. :-)
Old 1 week ago
  #28
Gear Maniac
 
JohnLRice's Avatar
I know this is a fairly old thread, but Michael Battine has a lot of informative videos on playing gongs and metal percussion and also some on recording too which may be helpful especially for beginners that aren't well versed in recording techniques. Here's some:

Cuppa Time #1 - Basic Recording for Gongs


Cuppa Time #2 - Microphones


Cuppa Time #3 External Mic Set Ups


Recording Gongs & Singing Bowls - Part 4


Microphones for Gongs Revisited


Recording Basics Revisited



And FWIW some shameless self promotion:

Low Pitched Gong Drones (single Neumann KM183 into a Canon C100 Mk2 camera, the mic was on a short desk stand in front of the gong about 12" away from the left edge and pointing towards the center)


Early Morning Gong (I like this one better but I've forgotten how I recorded it, probably a pair of KM183's into the C100 Mk2?)
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