Here's a recording I did of a piano recital with the OM1s.

Excuse the nasty stereo bar. I swear it wasn't so noticeable from the audience! I painted it black immediately after. Haha

I wasn't responsible for the video, FYI.

I'm sure No Hype Audio is good... but I had a likewise flawless experience ordering directly from Line Audio. I don't know of a pricing difference... and didn't care... it's just been my policy to go "direct to the source" whenever possible.

My questions were satisfactorily answered from within the hundreds of "CM3" posts in this forum, bolstered by the dozens of samples available within them. They are not my primary mics... but are used often enough to be kept in my kit. They do ride around in the same case as a selection of DPAs...

I'm fairly certain that, in the unlikely event they (either CM4 or OM1) are not satisfactory, you'd be able to recoup most of their modest cost fairly quickly on a sale or trade. Likely, you'll see they punch above their weight class.

http://www.lineaudio.se/contact.html

Cheers!

HB

Here's a quick MP3 bounce from a series of mic tests before beginning my ongoing project. The original .WAV file was recorded 10/27/18 at 24bit/48KHz directly into a Tascam DR60D, and edited/bounced today in Logic Pro X. These are Line Audio CM3 mics I purchased in 2016, arrayed NOS... this was early in the testing process.

The client eventually chose Gefell M296 AB omni (67cm) as their primary mic of choice, and Sennheiser MKH8040 ORTF as secondary. Once the mics choice was made, we tested for position, which ended up being about 7' out and 6' high from the piano (the artist's personal Model D in her large living room, which was also treated with quilts, blankets and baffles to tame as much hard first reflections problems as possible). This recording was a bit closer, the mics lower, at 5' and 4' respectively, with no treatment. It's "bright".

Hope this sheds some light on your quest.

Cheers.

HB

Impressive piano sound and simple setup. Works really well. Impressive technique from the pianist as well.

Thanks, Lucher. The hall is really nice. Beautiful reverb. Yes, she is a wonderful pianist. I was supposed to record her next recital in April but, of course, it's canceled. Bummer!

It sounds really nice. Just wondering your setup: how far were the 2 mics apart? How tall and how far were they from the piano? Which audio interface/recorder did you use for that recording? Thanks.

Same here. My solo recital in May is cancelled...

If you've studied with Janos Starker before, we likely graduated from the same college.

Sorry to hear about your recital being canceled. I didn't study with Starker but both of my teachers did. I think he called us his "musical grandchildren". But he is on of my idols. I take it you went to IU. Great place!

Thanks. You somehow seem to understand a newbie like me without sky-high (not even ceiling-high ) budget who is, on one hand, eager to jump in, yet on the other, trying to make every step deliberately to keep from going through too much devious path. Really appreciate it.

Thank you. I looked in my iPad where I keep notes and I have down that the mics were 67 cm apart , 7 feet back from the stick and 197 cm high (about 6 1/2 feet). The left mic was lined up with the hammers as the piano isn't a very bright instrument.

I have the original Great River mic pre from the 1990s, the MP-2, but with input transformers. i love it - it's a very open sounding mic pre. I used a Mytek ADC 96 to the digital ins of my Roland R44 and Denon recorder (good to have some sort of back up).

Janos Starker was one of the really great cellists. His recordings of the Brahms piano trios is just one example of great playing.

Subscribed!

I'd be very interested to hear the mic differences and what effect the omnis had in bringing in a bit of the room, as the CM3s (and presumably the 8040s) sound quite 'dry' here, although I think they capture the dynamics and tonality of the instrument itself very well.

Sounds like the classic 'huge piano : small space' dilemma!

Something that is oft overlooked is placing absorbers of choice (moving blankets, heavy throw rug, etc.) directly _under the piano. I find that it helps tame a loud and nasty first reflection, and greatly helps to "clean" and "tighten" the sound, enhancing articulation, clarity, dynamics, etc. Takes a bit of experimenting of course, and YMMV. But worth a try unless you are perfectly happy with the room sound as it is. IMHO. Good luck.

PS I will add that, as with most things in sound, it is entirely subjective. Similar to feelings about the lid of the piano.
For example, I am in the camp that prefers no lid when recording. Although without question many, if not most, of the "great" piano recordings have been made with the lid on, usually on full stick of course .
And, IMHO at least, the player, instrument, and musical selection being performed are about a million times more important than these other considerations.
But better is always better.

True. And recording engineers loved him because he hardly needed any editing - a sort of superhuman accuracy.

Thanks. It is a good place...as long as you don't mind surrounded by corn fields. (Some of my schoolmates did, but fine with me.)

Just wondering which hall you made the recording of that piano recital?

Thanks for the tips.

I ended up ordering a pair of CM4 and a pair of OM1, directly from Line Audio. With 2 cardioid and 2 omni, I guess I will have more options to "play" with --- to experiment on more different settings/combinations than if I own 2 KSM141 only (as, unfortunately, I cannot afford 4 KSM141 or 2 KSM141+2 NT55.)

Sweetwater rep recommended following under $1000 interfaces:

Focusrite Clarett 4Pre USB 18x8
Universal Audio Apollo Twin USB Duo 10x6
Audient iD44 USB 20x24
Sound Devices MixPre-6 II recorder & interface

Any suggestion?

Are the interface and pre-amp of MixPre-6 as good as the above standalone interfaces? (I kind of hope it does, thus I can choose to record with and without computer --- just for more flexibility.)

Here is a bit of Rachmaninoff from the first CD. It's edited, but not mastered, and is a Logic MP3 bounce from that edited file.

The Steinway is "crossways" at one end of the living room, just off center left looking at it. A second piano (a 7' Baldwin... the artist does a bit of duo work) is between the "D" and the mics stand, lid down, covered with a thick "stuffed" quilted blanket.

The stand held the mics (Gefell M296) at about 7' to the 10' ceiling.

The area behind the bench (a glass wall that runs the length of the house) was shielded by packing blanket-covered 6' tall folding room dividers, as was the corner to the left of the keyboard, the glass wall for about 8' out into the room, and the wall behind the hinge (about 4' away). The lid was at full stick, and, to reduce the secondary reflections from the ceiling/back wall joint to the lid, it was also covered with a moving quilt, gently clamped to the front (open) edge of the piano, hanging nearly to the floor off the hinge side.

The room is probably 18' wide and 40' long. The long wall at the end of the piano is cabinets and bookshelves. The "far" end is a door and a small glazed "TV room". There are several settees/couches/soft chairs between the mics and the far end, and there are large "thick" rugs on about 75% of the hardwood floor. The edit position (we edit in the same room) is about 6' from the mics stand, facing the "open" piano, and the HHb Circle 5 nearfields are a unilateral triangle about 6' apart with the chair about 10' out from the edge of the "D".

When I play back at that position, and the artist then plays at the piano, the sound is pretty much identical in L/R information, tonality, timbre and level (the speakers aren't quite as loud as the D at full cry). It's not a great room, but it is "better" than it was when we started, and we captured pretty well what a "salon concert" crowd would hear.

Here's the clip.

HB

Sounds really nice. Thanks for the setting details.

While I cannot answer that question, I can say, I would choose the Sound Devices unit out of that group. From what I have read, the pre amps should be fine, and especially to your point about not being tethered to a computer, it would seem to be a much more flexible unit than the others. Over time, I think that would be a huge plus. IMHO. Good luck.

The clip I just posted was recorded directly into a MixPre 6. We worked on the levels and mics placement over a long session, recorded some final test clips, and from that point onward, the client would prepare, then arm and start the MixPre, then slate the take from the piano, and play... slating additional starts until satisfied. The entire "Russian" CD was recorded and takes chosen over about 6 months time... the artist was exceptionally diligent in naming takes, and notating the the score(s)... and the ensuing edit sessions were, from an efficiency standpoint, quite palatable.

All that to say... if you like the sound of the MixPre's output unmastered... and you don't think you'll need at present more than 4 mics inputs and don't mind the (for my large, somewhat arthritic fingers) somewhat claustrophobic controls arrangement... I can't think of anything on that list I'd rather have had in my kit when I started my first "real" project 40 years ago. Beats the crud out of wagging around a TEAC A3340S 4-track ("line in" only), 15" reels of tape, and a Peavey Stereo 800S mixer, edited and mixed down to a A3300 2-track (all 15ips... lots of tape for a newbie) and cut-and-spliced (paper tape leaders on each track) to create what was sent off to mastering.

One old guy's opinion... I should add that I have NOT used the MixPre as an interface, other than to transfer files into Logic for ITB edit... but I can't imagine that it would not be at least in the same league as everything else mentioned... and a LOT more flexible, usable and less complicated than the rest... and then there's its "standalone" chops.

HB

To follow-on with what Edva said..
Using a Sounds Devices, there's nothing wrong with introducing a portable preamp to sit your current fancy, further on down the line.
I did a very nice pull the other day on the SD 422, with a Paintpot feeding the 422 at line level. In fact, if I were to upgrade my Paintpot with the wonderful Crookwood A/D, the SD would still function perfectly as a digital recording using AES connection... no laptop required.

It is really nice to roll in with a Petrol bag and two mic stands, and get up and running in minutes! Laptops are annoying for little jobs.

I know corn fields! Midwestern boy here. Haha

It's Rhea Recital Hall at Saginaw Valley State. It's a really nice hall to perform in. It's a pleasure to record there as well.

Here's a photo,

https://www.svsu.edu/musicdepartment/facilities/

Thanks for your time and opinions, which will make a good start of my beginning possible.

I am getting a MixPre-6 II, couple Rycote INV-3, Mogami cables, and K&M boom stands (along with CM4 and OM1). There are 2 things left (I guess): monitor headphone and stereo bar.

How long is likely most useful for a stereo bar? (I thought the longer the better for flexibility, but could not find any longer than 66cm/26". Maybe my thinking does not make sense...)

Any suggestion for an accurate/honest monitor headphone for piano?

(Unfortunately I did not have a good experience with Sweetwater sales rep. He showed his impatience at very beginning of our conversation, was not interested at all in answering questions from a novice, but kept asking "are you gonna place an order soon?" In the end, he even hanged up on me before I finished my last question about headphone...)

I do not know the school, but the hall seems to have wonderful acoustics, and it looks pretty.

I'd recommend the sabra-som mic bar: simply replace the included hex bar with a longer one and you have your 1 meter bar. I got 4 cold rolled steel hex bars for something like $15.

If you can afford it, the Grace space bars are really worth it. Repeatability. Precision. Durability. And will cost as much as your mics.

Sennheiser hd650s are as close to a standard headphone for classical as we'll ever get. If you can, the Drop (formerly massdrop) hd6xx is the same thing for cheaper. The HD600s are great too; the hd660s are fine, but I prefer the others. These are all open back. If you need sound isolation you should look at closed back... And good luck to you. I have ultrasone 750s. I can work on them when necessary, and only use them when necessary.

I started with Sony MDR-V6 (from my weekend DJ days... I still have a couple of pair) in the mid-'80s and moved to UltraSone 650HD when I needed extended LF reproduction for outdoor video work (monitoring and dealing with wind noise) in the late '90s. I've learned them well enough that I don't wish to learn others. My process then was to take an iPod loaded with .AIFF files of music I knew well (TelArc and Decca classical for choral, orchestra and organ, Steely Dan, Hornsby, Miles, Joni, like that) and from an hour or so at both GC and Sam Ash, the UltraSones won. I also paid attention to the sound of my guru's (Rich Mays - Sonare here at GS, RIP) personal choice (Sony MDRCD-1700) which were unavailable to me, being long discontinued. The UltraSones were close... he eventually bought a pair to have as back-up to his Sonys.

As to nearfield monitors, after my initial M-Audio Bx5A "training wheel" speakers proved to be so lacking as to be useless for much more than continuity checks... I was influenced by Rich's Bowers and Wilkins B&W 801 Series 2 / Bryston rig, and his Tannoy Series 800a nearfields. After a long weekend assisting him in on 4 location gigs in Savannah GA, I found a Craigslist set of the Tannoy (with the matching Tannoy sub... one of the benefits of living in Nashville) in the late '90s, and they are still at my edit desk. I also check mixes on a pair of HHb Circle 5 nearfields (QSC power) and a pair of Large Advents I rebuilt 20 years ago. Final "HiFi" checks are usually on my living room system... a pair of Acoustic Research Model 9, which have served me well since 1979.

Ultimately, within the range of "the usual suspects"... you'll need to audition as many "suggested" brands and models as you can without irritating friends and salespeople, and then... choose... wisely. I've heard Adam, Focal, ATC, Dynaudio, and other higher-end loudspeakers that I was truly impressed by. I'd also heartily recommend including a pair of Tannoy coax in the mix, as a reference to a time-aligned concentric design. I had wonderful advisors, and have been fortunate.

However... recommendations should only be a starting point. What YOU need in YOUR space for the music YOU produce can only be properly chosen by YOU. They're your ears, and your clients!

HB

Thanks for the tips. That is exactly what I plan to do: collect as much info about suggested brands and models as I can, and then audition them. With a tight budget and limited time (after all, performance and teaching are my main work), I have to be more cautious.

Several weeks ago when I talked with 2 B&H sales reps, each of them sent me a list of his suggested items they thought I'd need based on my plan/purpose. They might not have experience in classical piano recording, but gave me an idea about a rough range of "the usual suspects", which was helpful. Last week when I contacted Sweetwater, I wished I would've got more recommendations from hypothetically more experienced sales reps to narrow down the "range", and then I could move on to the "2nd step": give those products a try. I did not ask any of the reps to make a decision for me, but merely hope to learn from their knowledge/experience (just like what I did here in the forum). However, Sweetwater rep tried quite hard to convince me that all I need was one Zoom Q8 camcorder even though I explained a few times that video recording is not my main purpose, but audio recording is, and I do care the sound quality a lot. You do not think I asked too much from them, right?

Thanks for your input. I will give the headphone a try.

Where did you get "cold rolled steel hex bars"? In hardware store? Or I need to find blacksmith to make one for me?

Ten minutes on Google should find hex rods to go with the Sabra-Som sliding mounts. BH Photo has the 4-way short Sabra-Som stereo bars in stock to remove the sliding mounts for a wider bar. You may need to buy some longer 3mm bolts than the knurled bolts which come fitted in the Sabra-Som sliders. The hex rods I sourced in the UK were marginally thinner than Sabra-Som's original hex rod.

An alternative route is to use camera carbon-fibre rods and the sliding accessories used for lens support, etc.. You can find them on Amazon, EBay, Smallrig.

K&M do a useful metal wide stereo bar as well.