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AES-42 - it's a dead parrot! So ...
Old 16th October 2018
  #1
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🎧 10 years
AES-42 - it's a dead parrot! So ...

By and large, for a couple of reasons. One is the problem of trying to shoe-horn digital capabilities into existing analog infrastructure. The other is the La Manchian pursuit of creative freedom in the choice in marriage of microphone and preamp.

Can't offer much hope about the latter while we have engineers running the show (their desire to improve on another engineer's work is an urge stronger than sex). For the former, may I suggest what the world needs now is a truly flexible Cat 6 microphone cable.

I have noticed adverse reactions to the 'ethernet-like' new connector seen on a couple of TF NT5 prototypes. My response is 'why not'. An ethernet-type cable which includes separate signal paths for power and the digital signal, married with emerging chips for Dante conversion which can be readily included in the mic body, seem to offer an interesting path for ultimate migration down the AES-67 path to the individual device level.

A necessary condition would appear to be the availability of an ethernet cable with microphone cable physical characteristics. Multicore needs would now be handled with stage box switches with PoE, and of course with RJ45 cabling becoming more ubiquitous, venue infrastructure can be more readily used for transport between pickup point and control.

Let's run that notion up the flagpole and see who salutes ...
Old 16th October 2018
  #2
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TMetzinger's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope ➡️
By and large, for a couple of reasons. One is the problem of trying to shoe-horn digital capabilities into existing analog infrastructure. The other is the La Manchian pursuit of creative freedom in the choice in marriage of microphone and preamp.

Can't offer much hope about the latter while we have engineers running the show (their desire to improve on another engineer's work is an urge stronger than sex). For the former, may I suggest what the world needs now is a truly flexible Cat 6 microphone cable.

I have noticed adverse reactions to the 'ethernet-like' new connector seen on a couple of TF NT5 prototypes. My response is 'why not'. An ethernet-type cable which includes separate signal paths for power and the digital signal, married with emerging chips for Dante conversion which can be readily included in the mic body, seem to offer an interesting path for ultimate migration down the AES-67 path to the individual device level.

A necessary condition would appear to be the availability of an ethernet cable with microphone cable physical characteristics. Multicore needs would now be handled with stage box switches with PoE, and of course with RJ45 cabling becoming more ubiquitous, venue infrastructure can be more readily used for transport between pickup point and control.

Let's run that notion up the flagpole and see who salutes ...
I like the idea, frankly. Nearly all the gear on stage can be linked via Ethernet. Maybe we have separate switches for audio and lighting and video, maybe some folks put them on separate VLANs on shared switches. But the basic premise of converting the signals to bits as soon as possible, or vice versa for outputs, makes a lot of sense to me. And there's no reason that a cat6 cable can't be made stage-friendly.
Old 16th October 2018 | Show parent
  #3
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🎧 5 years
i'm with you folks! however, i'm a bit sceptical how long it might take to do the conversion when looking at how long old technology seems to live on in our business and potential decision makers seem to be very much risk averse these days (imo broadcasters/manufacturers would have had the combined power to push aes42 much more than they did). - in the meantime, i keep using my few aes42 mics (in addition to my much larger inventory of analog mics) as well as my old (and new) madi gear...
Old 16th October 2018
  #4
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Plush's Avatar
 
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I have no problem with AES42. I use some digital mics with phenomenal results.
Mostly these are Neumann D series.

It is a very pure pickup that is often suited to classical and acoustic recording.

I don't use a million channels so it is a good alternative for me.

I do still prefer to match the analog mic and usually tube preamp, however.

OP's thread title is similar to those who have pronounced the cd to be dead.
That's fake news.
Old 16th October 2018 | Show parent
  #5
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🎧 10 years
(No ... he's just resting ... Beautiful plumage!)

From my observations, all current AES-42 mics originated in the 2nd Millennium. No new developments. A small minority of consoles/recorders offer AES-42 support and usually then only the limited mode 1.

I do not decry digital microphones as such. (Pedantically, there is no true digital microphone extant - all are analog transducers with ADCs embedded.) What is apparent is that the constraints of AES-42, in the 3-pin XLR 2-wire-plus-screen (X2w+s) environment, have proven too limiting. Abandonment of the Schoeps digital preamp, failure of AKG to get up the remote control version of the C414, and other casualties seem to be symptoms of this disease.

Einstein pointed out the folly of keeping doing the same things and expecting different results. The concept of the digital-output microphone is good - we just need a different embodiment. The AES-67/Dante concept is increasingly accepted. Just extend it to individual devices, such as microphones. The X2w+s is a roadblock - let's build a bypass.

Belden? Canare? anyone?
Old 19th May 2022
  #6
Gear Head
 
The answer to OP's question is "because RJ45s are hella fragile, are born to snag, and the locking tabs break off if you look at them funny"

Someone steps on a cable on stage. They break the connector on the end.
I dare someone to break an XLR unintentionally.

You pull a cable. The latch snags on something. It breaks off.
XLR backshell/strain reliefs are streamlined for this exact purpose.

Cat5/6 is great for installed stuff that never/rarely gets moved or reconfigured and doesn't get touched by non-tech people, but as mic cable? Hell no.
Old 19th May 2022 | Show parent
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okto ➡️
The answer to OP's question is "because RJ45s are hella fragile, are born to snag, and the locking tabs break off if you look at them funny"

Someone steps on a cable on stage. They break the connector on the end.
I dare someone to break an XLR unintentionally.

You pull a cable. The latch snags on something. It breaks off.
XLR backshell/strain reliefs are streamlined for this exact purpose.

Cat5/6 is great for installed stuff that never/rarely gets moved or reconfigured and doesn't get touched by non-tech people, but as mic cable? Hell no.
Fixed in one word; Ethercon.

See? Easy.

D.
Old 19th May 2022 | Show parent
  #8
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1 Review written
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aes-42 is still going strong here: i bought a few more mics in the last four years and just recently another rme dmc-842...
Old 19th May 2022
  #9
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Plush's Avatar
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
AES-42 good here on Sonosax R4+ and Nagra Seven. Sennheiser adaptor cable (John Willett special) used to feed 2 mics into one AES 42 input on Nagra Seven

2 Neumann KMD with KK133 is mindblowed.
Old 28th July 2022 | Show parent
  #10
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope ➡️



Einstein pointed out the folly of keeping doing the same things and expecting different results.
Nope, he never did and likely it is just a line made up by lay folks who didnt really think it through..

... anything that involves an element of chance or statistically dependent result will disprove the quote by thinking about it, or simply a chnage of attitudes or cultural practice in society over time.

Sometimes things happen before cuture is ready... repeat it until society catches up.
Old 28th July 2022
  #11
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🎧 10 years
This is a long-shot, but I wonder if there are any generic AES42 complient front-end that provide control and A/D that can then be adjusted for a capsule/FET as a DIY project..

A little like modules for DIY midi controllers or such? anyone ever heard of such a thing?

I'm modifying a Soundfield V mic to a portable one, essentilly creating a portable power supply. Now I'm imaging how it would be as an AES42 mic with basic control.
Old 29th July 2022 | Show parent
  #12
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kludgeaudio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nat8808 ➡️
This is a long-shot, but I wonder if there are any generic AES42 complient front-end that provide control and A/D that can then be adjusted for a capsule/FET as a DIY project..
I don't think so because I don't think it ever got enough traction in the market. There are few enough things that receive AES42 let alone things that send it.

However, if you're willing to put a small computer, say a raspberry pi inside the box, you might consider directly sending AES67. There's no dedicated hardware solution out there for aes67 yet but there are some software solutions like https://github.com/philhartung/aes67-sender now.
--scott
Old 1st August 2022 | Show parent
  #13
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio ➡️
I don't think so because I don't think it ever got enough traction in the market. There are few enough things that receive AES42 let alone things that send it.

However, if you're willing to put a small computer, say a raspberry pi inside the box, you might consider directly sending AES67. There's no dedicated hardware solution out there for aes67 yet but there are some software solutions like https://github.com/philhartung/aes67-sender now.
--scott
I was really thinking about it to use with my field recorder, Aeta 4Minx, that has 4 channels of AES42 inputs.

Perhaps it would be more a case of modifying what was already made, essentially the front end with the particular capsules in the Soundfiled mic. Anyone want to get rid of two Sennheiser 8000 modules for say, £200 total??
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