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An alternative to Soundfield and other multi-element mics ?
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #61
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josephson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo ➡️
Thank you for the link.

I ma sorry, but there is no directional microphone can compete with the sound of omni C617. I don't understand why one would even bother to get involved with a microphone that sounds like that of DSF-1.



Da-Hong
Sure there is, it's a C700S with a pair of C617SET, which is what we had in mind when designing these mics originally.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josephson ➡️
Sure there is, it's a C700S with a pair of C617SET, which is what we had in mind when designing these mics originally.
Thanks. I’ve been wondering about C700S + configuration options.

Ray H.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #63
Here for the gear
 
They probably tried but I bet Sennheiser got there first and had some kind of exclusivity contract.

In any case you should record in A format and then process in a DAW later. The decoding on the recorder is needed if you want to monitor in stereo or (DSP permitting) binaural otherwise it's sufficient to sum all the channels to a mono signal.

The software side of the NT-SF1 seems a bit forgotten for example the DAW plugin for it has not been updated in over two years and is not signed for macOS 10.15 or later resulting in having to bypass security prompts if you want to install it.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #64
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josephson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chelgrian ➡️
They probably tried but I bet Sennheiser got there first and had some kind of exclusivity contract.

In any case you should record in A format and then process in a DAW later. The decoding on the recorder is needed if you want to monitor in stereo or (DSP permitting) binaural otherwise it's sufficient to sum all the channels to a mono signal.

The software side of the NT-SF1 seems a bit forgotten for example the DAW plugin for it has not been updated in over two years and is not signed for macOS 10.15 or later resulting in having to bypass security prompts if you want to install it.
We strongly recommend that instead of belief in any particular plugin or graphic representation, you can instead try mixing the raw B-format signals for the desired result. There is some explanation of this at http://www.josephson.com/pdf/srs7ug.pdf
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #65
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by josephson ➡️
Sure there is, it's a C700S with a pair of C617SET, which is what we had in mind when designing these mics originally.
Yes, but C700S has an omni element in it, doesn't it? As far as I know none of the Soundfield mics has it.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #66
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josephson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo ➡️
Yes, but C700S has an omni element in it, doesn't it? As far as I know none of the Soundfield mics has it.
That's right, it's why we call it a native B-format mic, the single omni produces the W signal. In an A-format mic, the W signal is produced by summing the four mics in the tetrahedron. This creates some filtering effects due to the distance between the mics.

Any intensity-difference stereo mic whether XY, MS or Ambisonic, provides stereo localization cues from interaural level differences. This cue is not very effective for low frequency sounds, so we use interaural time differences, which require spaced mics to capture. Adding a pair of omni's to an intensity stereo pickup often makes a big difference.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #67
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by josephson ➡️
That's right, it's why we call it a native B-format mic, the single omni produces the W signal. In an A-format mic, the W signal is produced by summing the four mics in the tetrahedron. This creates some filtering effects due to the distance between the mics.

Any intensity-difference stereo mic whether XY, MS or Ambisonic, provides stereo localization cues from interaural level differences. This cue is not very effective for low frequency sounds, so we use interaural time differences, which require spaced mics to capture. Adding a pair of omni's to an intensity stereo pickup often makes a big difference.


Hi David,

Sure. The wavelength of our audible frequencies extend from roughly 55 feet to less than on inch, yet, we only need a couple of feet between two omni mics to create enough timing difference to be able to localize bass sound source. Of course, the bass I am talking about here can only be captured with true pressure sensors.

However, at the other end of the audio chain, you have the reversed situation going on whereas the very low bass is often represented by only one subwoofer in a system because our inability to localize bass sound source within a reasonable-sized room. So, here is the age-old question; is it necessary, or even desirable to have the localization cue available in a recording going all the way down to 20Hz? In the old LP days, we knew the answer was no. What about these days, with the way we consume recording media? Will one omni mic in the recording to capture the very low bass be sufficient enough? Say with only one of your C700S



Best regards,

Da-Hong Seetoo
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #68
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo ➡️
Will one omni mic in the recording to capture the very low bass be sufficient enough?
imo clearly yes: i've been using a single 'lfe mic' (onmi or blm with a steep lpf) on the majority of my recordings in addition to mostly directional (and coincident) main mics...
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #69
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
imo clearly yes: i've been using a single 'lfe mic' (onmi or blm with a steep lpf) on the majority of my recordings in addition to mostly directional (and coincident) main mics...
But bass instruments also have directionality...at least perceivable via their higher harmonics/overtones. Concert drum...tympani in an orchestra, for example.

For sure, below a certain frequency the ear/brain can't localize...hence the advice to put your home hi-fi or home theatre subwoofer under the coffee table or the lounge suite. The psycho-acousticians among us here can probably nominate a frequency below which the source location can't be reliably pinpointed ?

So panning your LFE omni into the middle could be either oversimplifying...or just wrong ?
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #70
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
But bass instruments also have directionality...at least perceivable via their higher harmonics/overtones. Concert drum...tympani in an orchestra, for example.

For sure, below a certain frequency the ear/brain can't localize...hence the advice to put your home hi-fi or home theatre subwoofer under the coffee table or the lounge suite. The psycho-acousticians among us here can probably nominate a frequency below which the source location can't be reliably pinpointed ?

So panning your LFE omni into the middle could be either oversimplifying...or just wrong ?
the overtones of low instruments can get localised, their fundamentals cannot get localised (much).

since i'm mostly using directional (and lots of) mics as spots and/or as section mics, there can be some amount of proximity effect but often a significant amount of bass build-up which necessitate the use of hpf's - to compensate (if needed at all), i prefer using a single omni or blm with a lpf.

this also allows for dedicated dynamic processing of the lf signal without affecting the majority of the frequency spectrum or the stereo (or surround) soundfield and imo lets mixes better survive broadcast processing...

pls note that the .1 signal's frequency range is mostly just one (to max. one and a half) octave...

...but hey, if a pair of spaced omnis gets me the results i'm looking for, i got no problem muting a few dozen tracks! :-)

(yes, i almost alway use more than one main mic system: less for redundancy but to offer options)
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #71
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🎧 10 years
I guess my context was more the stereo reproduction of sounds recorded using this Omni LFE approach, which at first glance seems like the old vinyl maxim of "you have to sum all the bass to the centre, or the stylus will jump out of the record grooves" !

In the case of PA reproduction, where it's a predominantly mono mix for the audience anyway (with perhaps some stereo 'effects', or mild pan-placement of images to give a narrowed replication of musicians on stage), then I'm ok with it too.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #72
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surflounge's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I record into a Sound Devices Scorpio with a C700S and a pair of C617SETs pointed vertical spaced 30cm, mixed to stereo live, and save iso tracks if surround is needed later.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #73
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
the overtones of low instruments can get localised, their fundamentals cannot get localised (much).

since i'm mostly using directional (and lots of) mics as spots and/or as section mics, there can be some amount of proximity effect but often a significant amount of bass build-up which necessitate the use of hpf's - to compensate (if needed at all), i prefer using a single omni or blm with a lpf.

this also allows for dedicated dynamic processing of the lf signal without affecting the majority of the frequency spectrum or the stereo (or surround) soundfield and imo lets mixes better survive broadcast processing...

pls note that the .1 signal's frequency range is mostly just one (to max. one and a half) octave...

...but hey, if a pair of spaced omnis gets me the results i'm looking for, i got no problem muting a few dozen tracks! :-)

(yes, i almost alway use more than one main mic system: less for redundancy but to offer options)
Hey,

could you elaborate how you filter the .1 (lp) and the other mics (hp) in order not to get phase issues? Linear phase / ultra soft / ultra steep?
I really like the concept and have tried it a bit with good results, however, I'm a bit undecided what to do about filter / phase.

Cheers, Peer

Cheers, Peer
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #74
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeerSoe ➡️
Hey,

could you elaborate how you filter the .1 (lp) and the other mics (hp) in order not to get phase issues? Linear phase / ultra soft / ultra steep?
I really like the concept and have tried it a bit with good results, however, I'm a bit undecided what to do about filter / phase.

Cheers, Peer

Cheers, Peer
from aligning literally thousands of speaker systems, i can assure you that phase issues (unless they stem from mic positioning) mostly just become a problem if there are large overlaps between the lfe/sub and the lmf range - good news is that if there are any problems, it's mostly enough to adress things at the crossover frequency...

...but of course one can go full tilt by using frequency dependent phase alignment which then allows the use of very steep filters or large overlap between bands or asymmetrical filters/crossovers etc.


if not using my studer vista desk's hpf's and lpf's (both of which are individually switchable between 2nd, 3rd and 4th order; dunno even the filter type, probably lr?) on inputs, groups, auxes, masters or matrices, i have several processors from weiss, jünger, drawmer, tc, yamaha, lake and meyer to insert - the latter three are speaker processors which have a ridiculous amount and a large variety of filters available.

worth noting that i'm using a goniometer and a fft on my monitor bus to analyse phase (from dk audio or rtw and smaart); however, if being somewhat experienced, judging max. summing/least phase cancellation by ear is a very valuable technique too!
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #75
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge ➡️
I record into a Sound Devices Scorpio with a C700S and a pair of C617SETs pointed vertical spaced 30cm, mixed to stereo live, and save iso tracks if surround is needed later.
Do you have anything we can listen to with this setup? I've got the mics but haven't found myself in a situation where I can use them effectively like this.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #76
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surflounge's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by over-man ➡️
Do you have anything we can listen to with this setup? I've got the mics but haven't found myself in a situation where I can use them effectively like this.
been waiting for COVID to allow indoor recording/ Will post to you when next session happens. Don't know if outdoor setting would behave for this setup.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #77
Gear Head
 
josephson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo ➡️
Hi David,

Sure. The wavelength of our audible frequencies extend from roughly 55 feet to less than on inch, yet, we only need a couple of feet between two omni mics to create enough timing difference to be able to localize bass sound source. Of course, the bass I am talking about here can only be captured with true pressure sensors.

However, at the other end of the audio chain, you have the reversed situation going on whereas the very low bass is often represented by only one subwoofer in a system because our inability to localize bass sound source within a reasonable-sized room. So, here is the age-old question; is it necessary, or even desirable to have the localization cue available in a recording going all the way down to 20Hz? In the old LP days, we knew the answer was no. What about these days, with the way we consume recording media? Will one omni mic in the recording to capture the very low bass be sufficient enough? Say with only one of your C700S



Best regards,

Da-Hong Seetoo
Da-Hong, that's a really good question, which is to say that there isn't consensus on a definitive answer. Yes of course the omni in a C700S carries the weight of low frequency content of any (for instance) orchestral recording. Many C700S users are completely happy with this alone. Personally I prefer to have the option of adding some time-delay stereo cues at low frequencies from an extra pair of omnis. You don't have to use those tracks if you don't need them.

It's tempting for some to generalize about things like this. Sure, for localization in the subwoofer range, you need spaced omnis, preferably spaced quite a distance from the main mic(s), and even then it's highly dependent on the playback system, how much bass management there is, etc. Above 700 Hz or so, interaural intensity difference is plenty for good localization and excess time delay information *might* cause the center image to degrade. But you won't know that about a particular hall, ensemble and mic location until you're listening to the feeds from the mics. Sometimes it works to low-pass the outriggers, but then you have (potentially) phase issues introduced by the filters. Sometimes a pair of outriggers isn't enough and you can benefit from two pairs, with the wider pair further back in the hall. It very much depends on how much time-delay information you want to capture from the room.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #78
Comparison videos

I encourage you to check the newest comparisons of audio recorded with ZYLIA:

Comparison between mono, stereo, and binaural from Ambisonics - Village soundscape - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an9N4CKCO_o

Comparison between mono, stereo, and binaural from Ambisonics - Thunderstorm with rain - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7wA44twwLg

Stereo and Ambisonics microphones comparison - Drone flight - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koP3N1B2ckM

:-)
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #79
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by josephson ➡️
We strongly recommend that instead of belief in any particular plugin or graphic representation, you can instead try mixing the raw B-format signals for the desired result. There is some explanation of this at http://www.josephson.com/pdf/srs7ug.pdf
If you don't have a native B format mic setup and have something which outputs A specific format like an NT-SF1 or Ambeo or Tetra Mic then record that convert to B format later then mix / process in whatever way you wish. What I'm getting at is processing A to B from an A mic in the field recorder is entirely unnecessary.
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