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What's up with all the Hi Hats?
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #31
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TYPHY ➑️
Drake - HYFR
Lil Wayne - She Will
Wale - Ambition
Rick Ross - Super High

Those 4 songs are my favorite when it comes to hi-hats.

I'd be very surprised to find out there was only ONE hi-hat sample being used (not including the open hi-hat).
Thats exactly what I thought of, that sound is getting very popular and I love that groove.
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #32
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Storyville's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TYPHY ➑️
Drake - HYFR
Lil Wayne - She Will
Wale - Ambition
Rick Ross - Super High

Those 4 songs are my favorite when it comes to hi-hats.

I'd be very surprised to find out there was only ONE hi-hat sample being used (not including the open hi-hat).
Rick Ross - sounds like multiple samples but they're being played as if it's one hi hat line. Same thing with She Will. The Wale one is clearly different samples, but they don't really play contrast line. A closed hi hat moving fast, and then an open hat every now and then..... and same with the Drake tune.

These are examples of the exact opposite of what I'm talking about.
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #33
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Storyville's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildStyle ➑️
Those are some of my favorites too.
It seems that a lot of people on here have a problem with Southern Hiphop and Trap music in general.

Hi Hats are and always have been a VERY important part of hiphop, soul, & R&B. I'm really surprised at some of the response about this.
Some of my favorite peoples are trap people. I'm not talking about the presence of hi hats.

I'm talking about the presence of A LOT of high frequency content, and contrasting cymbals and hats.

All of those examples that Typhy listed are examples of cymbals that come together to form one cohesive idea. I'm talking about hats that are doing totally unrelated things. It kind of makes my ear get a little confused and I'm not sure how to work the mix. Do I open up the space? Where do I pan them? How much high end do I take out of the synths? The roughs tend to just have that stuff all over the place.
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #34
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Storyville's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbechristos ➑️
If I got many hatz like you in this situation I usually pick the most significant one and make it present but not to much. the rest I ll pan/flange and route them all to a bus and reduce the high frequencies and limit them to get rid of the attack.

90 % working.
Holy Moly - real advice! Stop the presses.

I'm going to give that a shot. Just take the groovinest one and move it forward and let the others provide texture.
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #35
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🎧 10 years
More cowbells, more hats, more sizzling highs in all frequenciezzz

From the recent records, the hats on the "1500 or Nothing" produced records are the ones I have enjoyed the most if I may say so lol

The recent Casey Veggies records for instance or even the one below :



But non coherent hats ? Well maybe it's a composition and/or arrangement fault.. WHat I don't like are those very very very unrealistic 1/64th hats "drawn" as long notes.. not that I worry about realism but they just sound ugly... People tend to exaggerate when they have the possibility lol...

edit: just realized, what do I do listening to hihats on records...?!!! that's that permanent audio geek mind switched on..
Old 26th January 2013
  #36
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
I pretty much do what sbechristo said. Some I'll dull down (even hpf around 12k) and pick others to keep a lot of presence in. I also will add more click to some of those I filtered to keep them more audible in the mix.
Old 26th January 2013
  #37
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storyville ➑️
Holy Moly - real advice! Stop the presses.

I'm going to give that a shot. Just take the groovinest one and move it forward and let the others provide texture.
What are the tails/releases like?

Might be a good time to pull out the ole SPL transient designer.

Keep the releases of the "pushed back" hats short, send them to their own verb, side chain the verb to the forward hat so that you get tails w/o build up and an add'l macro-rhythm. Maybe a little movement front to back too...

Of course, since I'm addicted to dyn-eqs, I would bus the primary, secondary group, and dedicated verb all to a bus and slap a Hofa on to keep any hi-freq build up in check.
Old 27th January 2013
  #38
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ModernMixing's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
interesting thread. maybe its a new style of muisic.... Hat Hop Maybe??

ps... Im clearly joking lol
Old 27th January 2013
  #39
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
it's wack

it can't be played with real drums the same way so to me it's untalented garbage fake musicianship
Old 27th January 2013 | Show parent
  #40
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Below Zero ➑️
it's wack

it can't be played with real drums the same way so to me it's untalented garbage fake musicianship
This shouldn't be any kind of reasoning as to why not to try something new or different. You are there to enhance the listening experience as best as possible, not provide a testament to your musicianship or lack thereof and when I say "your" I am not speaking specifically towards you I am merely making a generalization. Simply because it can't be played on an actual instrument doesn't mean it is as you put it "wack". I am all for anything that enhances the song itself, whether it be organic or synthetic.

I would like to think that you would like to make the best music you possibly can, if sprinkling a few hi hats here and there enhances the story telling aspect of it all then why not? Are you simply going to remove it from your options simply because it "can't be played with real drums" ?

If it makes it better you should use it, that should be the be all and end all of your musical thought process. (This shouldn't circumvent stylistic or personal preferences of course but should be an addition to and not instead of kind of thing)
Old 27th January 2013 | Show parent
  #41
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildStyle ➑️
Those are some of my favorites too.
It seems that a lot of people on here have a problem with Southern Hiphop and Trap music in general.
What you have to realize is that it's a sort of Pavlovian conditioning at work here. A large proportion of southern music contains a lot of nonsense, people talking about relatively trivial things and expressing themselves like morons. Accompanying this nonsense so to speak are hi hats usually, (I probably should say hi hat rolls to be more specific or hi hats of a certain style). So sooner or later people start to associate the hi hats with the nonsense and thinking that one can't exist without the other.

So even in cases where the hi hats for all intents and purposes enhances the song in question all people will remember is that hi hat rolls usually come with nonsense hence whatever has hi hat rolls is nonsense by default. The same applies to 808s.

Now I'm not going to lie sometimes there assumptions are right, most trap music I hear has very little being said outside of money, cars, drugs etc etc but after a while it's going to take someone exposed to a lot of horrible trap music to sit down, try and remove or at least suppress previous listening experiences and try to assess the track objectively. This is where most people fall short.
Old 27th January 2013
  #42
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
To the op: the 16th/32nd and triplet hi hats come from southern hip hop, a sub genre of which is trap that has kind of overshadowed everything else in mainstream hip hop for the last 5-8 years. This occurs because of the linear-ness of the 16 steps of a TR-808 sequencer and later the fruity loops (FL studio) sequencer which are ubiquitous production tools (as well as a bunch of dance music and other influences). Sorry if that's info you already knew but I'm assuming your hip hop knowledge is kind of " old school?"

Why, though?

I feel the hi hats provide stark contrast to the kick and snare which are categorically slow (70bpm) for other types of hip hop/dance music so it kind of feels upbeat and energetic while simultaneously feeling a bit slow or laid back (compared to other hip hop subgenres)... Creating kind of a push-pull effect. You can grind to it or you can bounce double time with it on the dance floor. You can rhyme half time or double time (depending on your perspective) or switch it up mid line or what have you...

It's cool and I've enjoyed the sound but I think it's wayyy overused. According to the 20 year pendulum and recent releases (IE Kendrick's record, Rocky's record) it looks like we're headed towards a mainstream boom bap resurgence ala Native Tongues and such from the early 90s (or at least the modern take on it).

Listen to Bun B as a mixing reference. I think Mr.Chops 808 programming is as virtuoso as it gets in the genre. Lex Luger and TMinus productions are the ones they're all imitating but I find Luger's **** way too heavily compressed. T-Minus/40 mixes seem intentionally dark but "swimming pools" just went platinum...so maybe it's a good reference.
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #43
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Storyville's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AGordon84 ➑️
To the op: the 16th/32nd and triplet hi hats come from southern hip hop, a sub genre of which is trap that has kind of overshadowed everything else in mainstream hip hop for the last 5-8 years. This occurs because of the linear-ness of the 16 steps of a TR-808 sequencer and later the fruity loops (FL studio) sequencer which are ubiquitous production tools (as well as a bunch of dance music and other influences). Sorry if that's info you already knew but I'm assuming your hip hop knowledge is kind of " old school?"
You'd be assumin' wrong. Well... I've got some "old school" knowledge too.

Trap, like all music has been evolving. People experiment with things. I'm noticing a trend in some production styles that involves a lot of high frequency elements. Lots of sizzly synths, bright snares, unrelated hat lines, white noise... all kind of overlapping. Makes it tough to fit the vocals a bit, but hey, everything is everything.

The question is - do ya just leave all the high end stuff in there soundin' crazy, or do ya sort it out. As a mix guy, I feel like I'm supposed to sort it out, clear up room. But mixing isn't about sound, it's about music. So if the style is to have a crazy goofy high end, I'll get with it.
Old 28th January 2013
  #44
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Sorry, I thought the question was "what's up with all the high hats?"

De-esser? Don't parallel compress them? De-clip or xcrackle? Do the flange trick the other guy said? Bit crush them? Side chain them off the kick and/or snare? Mute them? Now, I wanna know what's up with the hi hats.

Wasn't trying to be condescending homie... Just sounded like you don't really mess with the south when you talked about a ubiquitous production element like it's an alien dialect. I figured you were an old studio guy who got your first trap record to mix... My bad. Hope one of those suggestions helps.
Old 28th January 2013
  #45
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by yosemitesam ➑️
IMO and off the top of my head, an arrangement should
  • Be interesting
  • Fill the frequency spectrum, panoramic field, and front-to-back depth
  • Drive the rhythm
  • Create a distinct texture

And it should ideally accomplish these goals with as few elements as possible. All elements should sound natural but still be (almost) seamlessly out of each other's way.

General tools you'll find useful: you'll want some combination of
  • Melody
  • Countermelody
  • Pads (long sustaining elements, often chords)
  • Bass
  • Rhythm (could be drums or percussion, could be a rhythmic chord pattern like a guitar or arpeggiated synth)

Matt I remember that mix you showed me had the different sets of cymbals/hi hats working together very well--distinct separation because of the different colors. It may disappoint you to know that I'm working on a track with two different hi hats, a white noise fall, and four different cymbals now--two rock drum set-sounding cymbals, and a more "electronic-sounding" reverse crash/regular crash. I think maybe your track filtered in to the back of my mind somewhere and this is the result
Bullseye!
Old 28th January 2013
  #46
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medearis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Hi-hats are whack. It's all about 16th note cymbal crashes and gated female orgasms.
Old 28th January 2013
  #47
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🎧 10 years
oh wait, was it those kind of records ?



if so... yes, the hats transient designed with minimal release and stronger attack to emphasize the groove and get some clarity. Slightly panned for contrast.

White noise might need to be reshaped to sound like CO2 fumes like in the club.

Synths might be deessed slightly (brainworx MS plug so that the frequencies are redistributed in the stereo field)#

Never got to really get the knack of it tough...
Old 28th January 2013
  #48
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FOSHO ENT's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Matt or story I think you should mix it twice once with eq and once with trying to make it work , if I was high hat guy I would like to here both and it will give you two points of view for you to pick from or for him to pick from, also I would focus on the interaction or overlap there might be some canceling of frequency - or lack there of that is catching the producers ear. I would also try to make them cut each other off and see how that sounds ..
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #49
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Storyville's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AGordon84 ➑️
S
Wasn't trying to be condescending homie...
Never thought you were. Just gotta let the people know.
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #50
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Storyville's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOSHO ENT ➑️
Matt or story I think you should mix it twice once with eq and once with trying to make it work , if I was high hat guy I would like to here both and it will give you two points of view for you to pick from or for him to pick from, also I would focus on the interaction or overlap there might be some canceling of frequency - or lack there of that is catching the producers ear. I would also try to make them cut each other off and see how that sounds ..
Matt AND Story. Yeah....you're right. I guess that's reality. Just play with the possibilities. I've had a number of mixes roll across my desk this way as of late - not just one single mix. But yeah, I'm just gonna futz with it and see what sticks.
Old 3rd February 2013
  #51
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MAC_Music's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
i think giving attention to HAT tracks are very important. Its small but man it makes a huge difference; even if its a filler which sometimes is the case.

I also think the MASTERING process sometimes sits the HAT in a nice spot, or perhaps thins or thickens the HAT (whether open or closed).

Trial & Error friends....trial and error
Old 4th February 2013 | Show parent
  #52
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Storyville's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAC_Music ➑️
i think giving attention to HAT tracks are very important. Its small but man it makes a huge difference; even if its a filler which sometimes is the case.

I also think the MASTERING process sometimes sits the HAT in a nice spot, or perhaps thins or thickens the HAT (whether open or closed).

Trial & Error friends....trial and error
Hats can be super important! Really, everything is important. I try not to rely on mastering for anything, although the mastering guys I work with usually kick my ass on the final print.

But yeah, a lot of mastering guys will listen to the movement on the top end and use either a de-esser to sit it better, or some kind of compression technique that helps it move along better.
Old 4th February 2013
  #53
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🎧 5 years
Story: I was thinking about this thread and wondered-- since your probably done with the track that prompted you to originally post this, can you share how you resolved the issue(s)?

Learn anything? Anything you'd do differently in hindsight?

Always interested in your thoughts and solutions...
Old 5th February 2013 | Show parent
  #54
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Storyville's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Ray ➑️
Story: I was thinking about this thread and wondered-- since your probably done with the track that prompted you to originally post this, can you share how you resolved the issue(s)?

Learn anything? Anything you'd do differently in hindsight?

Always interested in your thoughts and solutions...
Long since done.

My feeling was this. In all cases, the producer was trying to add energy to the record by going the "more is more" route. The first step was cleaning up white-noisey synths. The stuff that had a lot of 10k+. Best way I found to do this - Slate VTM or Tube Tech PE-1C. The VTM was good for shifting the energy down into the midrange while easing off the highs. The PE-1C was a good way of simply attenuating high end without really feeling like I was losing something.

Once the high end was opened up for all the hats it became an automation game. I found some kind of sense of phrasing within the hats, and drew in an arrangement that kind of "passed" one hat pattern onto another - even though they were both simultaneous. This way, while the high end was a little clustered, it still had a sense of direction and was a bit cleaner.

Lastly, there was just a lot of micromanagement of the treble. Distinguishing between the cymbal getting an 8k bump, and the tingy hats get 16k bumps. That sort of stuff.

It helped to throw a high pass filter on the master for monitoring purposes at around 4k. Just to focus on that area.
Old 5th February 2013
  #55
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🎧 15 years
You're noticing the effects of music made by and for high people. When you're high, you want sizzly high frequencies "goodies" that tickle your ear. The more hats the ear has to pay attention to, the more the mind is blown. This phenomenon is also why you had so many Dr. Dre-style high shrill sine wave melodies in 90s G Funk and riding music. When you work for Mattel and you're coming up with a toy design for 5 year olds, you have to try to put yourself in the mind of a 5 year old. When you're a producer or engineer making rap music, you have to do kind of a similar thing.
Old 5th February 2013
  #56
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Could be monitoring, sound like the person just couldn't accurately hear what was going on in the high range.

Anyway, I think HHs are pretty hard to get right in any case.
Old 5th February 2013
  #57
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🎧 5 years
Thanks, Story.

Good tip on the Pe-1c.. I'm always thinking about it in terms of boost- Im gunna test it on some shill/brittle material and get a feel for how it subtracts.
Old 5th February 2013 | Show parent
  #58
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Storyville's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Ray ➑️
Thanks, Story.

Good tip on the Pe-1c.. I'm always thinking about it in terms of boost- Im gunna test it on some shill/brittle material and get a feel for how it subtracts.
Shrill material I might go a different route. It's always a little trepidatious talking about a sound without context. I like the 20khz attenuation on the Tube Tech when I want to get a fizzy synth out of the way of some other high frequency element without losing the energy of the synth in context. I don't own the software, but I've used it, as well as the waves pultec, and they both do a decent job.

But the subtraction is super smooth - award winning for me.
Old 6th February 2013 | Show parent
  #59
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WildStyle's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsowa ➑️
You're noticing the effects of music made by and for high people. When you're high, you want sizzly high frequencies "goodies" that tickle your ear. The more hats the ear has to pay attention to, the more the mind is blown. This phenomenon is also why you had so many Dr. Dre-style high shrill sine wave melodies in 90s G Funk and riding music. When you work for Mattel and you're coming up with a toy design for 5 year olds, you have to try to put yourself in the mind of a 5 year old. When you're a producer or engineer making rap music, you have to do kind of a similar thing.
Never been been high in my life but still love the high frequencies tho. lol

I just think that the musical tastes of many are getting more complicated, they're exposed to so much, they have access to really great headphones, so they expect music to push the limits.
They have FREE iPhone & Android apps that let them play at beatmaking, they see how easy it is to lay out a kick, snare, and hi hat. So they're looking for good creative music that they couldn't have done themselves.
Old 7th February 2013
  #60
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SighBorg's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
I've been noticing this fairly often - what's up with all the high freq stuff?
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