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SP-1200 Swing
Old 13th September 2012
  #1
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xanax's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
SP-1200 Swing

sup yall, i've been trying to replicate the particular swing from my SP on my MPC's (60 & 2000) and other drum machines, but i can't even get close to the feeling. i think because of the SP's super low ppq resolution (24) the swing quantize is super off-beat. anyway to replicate this kind of "low resolution" swing quantize on an MPC?
Old 13th September 2012
  #2
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godphaser's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Put the quantize off and play it with the swing you want.
Old 13th September 2012
  #3
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🎧 15 years
Which SP are you using to test, the black or grey model? What is your method of testing? The midi data? I have no problems getting a similar groove and feel, on my 60 MK1. However, im comparing to the black model.

My boy has the grey model. I just spoke with him. He has not noticed anything vastly different about the feel of his compositions on the SP. To be honest, thinking about it, I would have to admit, his stuff sounds the same whether using the SP or the 2500. But he is strictly boom bap. Not a whole lot going on there.

This subject has never really been part of any discussion I have had with friends who have had the SP over the years. It is bit puzzling. Has your SP been serviced since you have owned it?
Old 13th September 2012
  #4
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🎧 10 years
1. Do you know what swing actually work (mean)? If not read the SP manual and the MPC manual and do the math. Also keep in mind that SP beatmaker sometimes set the SP tempo to double speed (for ex. 180 instead of 90). That has influence on the swing. You can also set the MPC to half speed to fake a lower ppq.

2. Keep in mind that the way you trim samples is different and so (although you have to trim by ear on both) the startpoints arn't the same on both machines. That influences the timing of the beat more than most people think.

3. I once downloaded a midifile that represented the timing of the SP and although this timing was midijitter only, I liked how it sound when I recreated the timing on myMPC2000 in stepedit.

peace
Old 13th September 2012 | Show parent
  #5
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xanax's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrides ➑️
Which SP are you using to test, the black or grey model? What is your method of testing? The midi data? I have no problems getting a similar groove and feel, on my 60 MK1. However, im comparing to the black model.

My boy has the grey model. I just spoke with him. He has not noticed anything vastly different about the feel of his compositions on the SP. To be honest, thinking about it, I would have to admit, his stuff sounds the same whether using the SP or the 2500. But he is strictly boom bap. Not a whole lot going on there.

This subject has never really been part of any discussion I have had with friends who have had the SP over the years. It is bit puzzling. Has your SP been serviced since you have owned it?
i think it's pretty well known the SP has a swing of it's own, again i'm sure due to it's low ppq resolution. the SP swing gives a really sloppy timing, i personally love it but it's a well known trick that people used to double the tempo in order to get a more traditional higher resolution swing. my method is simple: bang out a beat in the 90bpm register, 1/16th quantize, apply swing (usually 54/58%) my model is the black re-issue not that i've ever heard there being a difference in swing or timing in between the grey & the black..
Old 13th September 2012 | Show parent
  #6
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterpiper0815 ➑️
You can also set the MPC to half speed to fake a lower ppq.
hmm that makes sense, both my MPC's are 96ppq so i would have to divide the tempo by 4 to reach 24ppq, i'll have to try that..will report the results..
Old 13th September 2012
  #7
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🎧 15 years
Black vs Grey. Sometimes grey models if unserviced, depending on how old and condition, and be out of spec. I was wondering if yours was perhaps broken, and was going to reccomend Forat if it seemed as such.

As for the rest of that, i'll let you tell it cheif. In 12 yrs, this has not been a topci of discussion for me or an area of interest / concern. They sound different, but I can even get that using one of my Emaxes, when I need more sample time. Surely you are not trying to replicate using the MPC, with the same swing percentages? If so, then I understand why you are having issues. I cant help though. I dont have this problem. My 60, 2000, 1000 and 2500 can be programmed to sound pretty much any way I want them to, in my experience. But you know what, that may be because im using these boxes to emulate the feel and groove in my mind, as a dream up a new composition, not the other way around.

See godphaser's comment above.
Old 13th September 2012
  #8
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xanax's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
^ jrides it seems you're confusing several things here... i'm purely talking about swing, not sound which i guess is what you're refering to with the emax since it's sequencer doesn't even have quantize.. anyways rest assured my SP is up to spec and is not "broken" in any way

back to the issue at hand, it seems the ppq is definitely what's going on, halving the tempo on the MP gets you a lot lot closer to the SP swing, unfortunately to get it exact you'd need to divide the tempo by 4 only MPC's go down to 30BPM max, also the metronome at that speed makes it extremely hard to tap in a beat in time (i had to use note repeat to enter a hihat to use as a click) looks like the SP is here to stay (i was toying with the idea of letting it go)
Old 13th September 2012
  #9
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax ➑️
^ jrides it seems you're confusing several things here... i'm purely talking about swing, not sound which i guess is what you're refering to with the emax since it's sequencer doesn't even have quantize.. anyways rest assured my SP is up to spec and is not "broken" in any way

back to the issue at hand, it seems the ppq is definitely what's going on, halving the tempo on the MP gets you a lot lot closer to the SP swing, unfortunately to get it exact you'd need to divide the tempo by 4 only MPC's go down to 30BPM max, also the metronome at that speed makes it extremely hard to tap in a beat in time (i had to use note repeat to enter a hihat to use as a click) looks like the SP is here to stay (i was toying with the idea of letting it go)
How do you normally have your click set? 1/4 notes is recommended - not sure what you prefer at normal tempos..
Old 13th September 2012
  #10
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xanax's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
1/4 note definitely but at half tempo 1/4=1/2 i guess i should try 1/8 at half tempo..if thats possible? (i've never changed the rate)
Old 13th September 2012
  #11
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax ➑️
1/4 note definitely but at half tempo 1/4=1/2 i guess i should try 1/8 at half tempo..if thats possible? (i've never changed the rate)
Thats what i was alluding to, i use 1/4 as standard but at slow tempos double up,
Old 13th September 2012 | Show parent
  #12
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax;8259833[B
]^ jrides it seems you're confusing several things here... i'm purely talking about swing, not sound which i guess is what you're refering to with the emax since it's sequencer doesn't even have quantize.. anyways rest assured my SP is up to spec and is not "broken" in any way [/B]back to the issue at hand, it seems the ppq is definitely what's going on, halving the tempo on the MP gets you a lot lot closer to the SP swing, unfortunately to get it exact you'd need to divide the tempo by 4 only MPC's go down to 30BPM max, also the metronome at that speed makes it extremely hard to tap in a beat in time (i had to use note repeat to enter a hihat to use as a click) looks like the SP is here to stay (i was toying with the idea of letting it go)
Actualy im not. I threw in that comment about sound to demonstrate someting that I did actually find to have a discernable difference, between the SP and MPC.I reread my statement, and am not sure how you came to that conclusion. I thought I was being pretty clear, since in that sentence I wasnt even talking about a MPC.
Old 13th September 2012
  #13
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xanax's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
i came to that conclusion because sound is completely irrelevant to the discussion which is about SP's swing quantize and how to achieve it on an MPC. also this has nothing to do with black vs grey units or "up to spec" condition..
Old 13th September 2012
  #14
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2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterpiper0815 ➑️
2. Keep in mind that the way you trim samples is different and so (although you have to trim by ear on both) the startpoints arn't the same on both machines. That influences the timing of the beat more than most people think.
I vote this.
Old 13th September 2012
  #15
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xanax's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
^ BS, i sample one shot drum samples using threshold sampling, i even have original e-mu sound disks so this isn't a sloppy chop job. i don't see what is so hard to see/understand: the super low 24ppq gives a sloppy swing, the double tempo trick is pretty well known to SP users too btw...

on a related note, beat thang's adjustable ppq is i guess a pretty nifty feature to get low ppq swing quantize, akai should look into it if there reading
Old 13th September 2012
  #16
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🎧 10 years
Although I wrote that stuff above it wasn't really ment to emulate anything. Its just to show how some things work and give inspiration. Another thing you might want to experiment with is syncing the MPC to a DAW (DAW as master). This way you can set the tempo to anything your DAW is able to (at least it worked with my 2000classic). think about tempo 500 bpm and 32th noterepeat glitch sound Or 1 bpm and having a whole song in 1 bar (very annoying to edit tho)

peace

EDIT: I dont have the 1200 but as far as I understand it the use of doubled temop on SP isn't because of "sloppyness" but because it creates another swing setting (32th swing or something like that). Oh, and different machines react different on differnt autotriggerrecord settings on different source levels on different audio material with different frequency-spectrum
Old 13th September 2012
  #17
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xanax's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
^ interesting thoughts but i'm not trying to bring DAW jitter to my hardware setup.. not to mention i find DAW's a workflow buzzkill but that's another debate.. funny how complicated it is to emulate something so primary and low-spec
Old 13th September 2012 | Show parent
  #18
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax ➑️
i came to that conclusion because sound is completely irrelevant to the discussion which is about SP's swing quantize and how to achieve it on an MPC. also this has nothing to do with black vs grey units or "up to spec" condition..
Well I was just trying to help. I see you went and reached back for the black vs grey item as well. Regarding this, again, I was just trying to get a handle on why you were having so much trouble doing something that is a non-issue for others.

Before I conclude that you don't know how to operate your MPC very well, I figured it was best to explore the possibility that your SP was broken. I try not to jump to conclusions too often, and in this case I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Old 13th September 2012
  #19
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xanax's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
you also confirm my suspicions that your only intent here is to troll, but if you were genuinely trying to help well i must also conclude you appear to be the one with not much knowledge or understanding of the subject which i understand is none of your concern to you or your friends, but in that case not really sure what your intent is besides to troll? or prove that you have super MPC skills and a mind that can automatically reproduce 24ppq swing settings at will (congrats on that btw )
Old 13th September 2012 | Show parent
  #20
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax ➑️
funny how complicated it is to emulate something so primary and low-spec
Just money and time consuming. (either build your own sequencer or get heavy skillz on drumming / finger drumming)

peace
Old 13th September 2012
  #21
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xanax's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
i think i'll just keep the SP
Old 14th September 2012
  #22
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🎧 10 years
I have both the SP-1200 and the MPC 3K. They are just different. There is a thread somewhere where I put up screen shots after recording both into Pro Tools. Even when they are set to the same resolutions, they just swing differently.
Old 14th September 2012
  #23
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
I kept my SP 1200 too noting like it.
Old 14th September 2012
  #24
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterpiper0815 ➑️
Keep in mind that the way you trim samples is different and so (although you have to trim by ear on both) the startpoints arn't the same on both machines. That influences the timing of the beat more than most people think.
+1 I've been preaching this for years, our eyes are starting to meddle with our ears.
Old 14th September 2012 | Show parent
  #25
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xanax's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by fooloof ➑️
I have both the SP-1200 and the MPC 3K. They are just different. There is a thread somewhere where I put up screen shots after recording both into Pro Tools. Even when they are set to the same resolutions, they just swing differently.

thanks for confirming this pal, although it was very very clear to my ears the swing was different, which is why i had to chuckle at suggestions of sloppy truncating, not knowing how to operate an mpc or my personal favorite: that the SP was broken / out of service the funniest thing is i'm sure the people citing the above have never actually laid hands on an SP
Old 14th September 2012 | Show parent
  #26
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by fooloof ➑️
I have both the SP-1200 and the MPC 3K. They are just different. There is a thread somewhere where I put up screen shots after recording both into Pro Tools. Even when they are set to the same resolutions, they just swing differently.

so the SP or the 3000 can be SET to a resolution?? very interesting.

Quote:
the funniest thing is i'm sure the people citing the above have never actually laid hands on an SP
Wow I guess that was a tough task after I told you that I never had one.

peace
Old 14th September 2012
  #27
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2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezionjd ➑️
+1 I've been preaching this for years, our eyes are starting to meddle with our ears.
Another poster has said that a few of us are wrong about this, so our point is invalid
Old 14th September 2012 | Show parent
  #28
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xanax's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterpiper0815 ➑️
so the SP or the 3000 can be SET to a resolution?? very interesting.
i don't think he's talking about ppq resolution setting like on the beat thang (the only drum machine to my knowledge that has variable ppq settings) i think he just meant when the 2 machines are at the same quantize resolution (like 58% swing @1/16th)



Quote:
Originally Posted by peterpiper0815 ➑️
Wow I guess that was a tough task after I told you that I never had one.
chill, just a general remark to the naysayers wasn't pointing at anyone in particular, if anything you were the most helpful on the situation
Old 14th September 2012
  #29
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🎧 5 years
Reason has SP12 swing templates in it. I think someone recently uploaded midi files for them. Hit up "Atma" I think he was the one who did it.

You could essentially achieve the same feel by applying swing, bouncing, and then randomly moving a few hits 1 or 2 samples earlier or later in your sequence.

Might not be as fast, but really working it can get you the swing you are looking for.
Old 15th September 2012 | Show parent
  #30
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterpiper0815 ➑️
so the SP or the 3000 can be SET to a resolution?? very interesting.



Wow I guess that was a tough task after I told you that I never had one.

peace

yeah, they have percentages for their swing settings. 50% is no swing and you can set it up to 75% on the MPC, but I don't recall what it is for the SP. I guess I'll go turn it on and see.

Be right back, LOL

yeah, the SP only goes up to 71% and each swing setting jumps by different increments. For instance, you start at 50% and the next increment is 53% and then it goes to 58%, I think.

This differs from the MPC, which can be set to any increment between 50% and 75%. I'm pretty sure that 75% on 1/16 is the same as 16/T.
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