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SP-1200 Swing
Old 16th September 2012 | Show parent
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH ➑️
54 % - 13*4=52
58 - 14*4=56
63 - 15*4=60
67 - 16*4=64
71 - 17*4=68
those settings might correspond mathematically but they don't translate irl, perhaps jitter is indeed the variable and if so then there is maybe no way to reproduce the exact SP swing on another sequencer (other then playing it live or shifting events around manually) but i still don't rule out that e-mu might be using a specific swing pattern that differs from the MP, this is theoretical i'm making no claims but before you go out calling me names check out this chart representing 12 different swing patterns:
Attached Thumbnails
SP-1200 Swing-swing-patterns.jpg  
Old 16th September 2012 | Show parent
  #62
DAH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax ➑️
those settings might correspond mathematically but they don't translate irl, perhaps jitter is indeed the variable and if so then there is maybe no way to reproduce the exact SP swing on another sequencer (other then playing it live or shifting events around manually) but i still don't rule out that e-mu might be using a specific swing pattern that differs from the MP, this is theoretical i'm making no claims but before you go out calling me names check out this chart representing 12 different swing patterns:
Yep, this chart illustrates different swing patterns. However, the swing facility in HW sequencers is simple as that - shifting even notes later. I am not sure if one can export SP sequences as midi file, but I am sure that odd 8th notes in swing quantized pattern will fall on the grid while even 8th notes will be shifted later. That`s all, and all further variations come from jitter. That`s why I said that was useless to use any swing capture templates - most of the time the jitter value is less than a tick even at 960 PPQ.
Old 16th September 2012
  #63
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i don't know how you can be so sure of yourself without actually testing out your theory (you've never actually used an SP correct?), it's still very possible the SP uses a different swing pattern algo (the above chart is from a hw unit btw). as mentioned earlier there exists "SP groove templates" for logic or reason i forget, i remember trying them couple years ago but didn't feel it captured the SP swing exactly although i didn't A/B them directly like i've done now with the MP. i always concluded it had to do with the different ppq, but i guess there could be other factors such as jitter..
Old 16th September 2012 | Show parent
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax ➑️
i don't know how you can be so sure of yourself without actually testing out your theory (you've never actually used an SP correct?), it's still very possible the SP uses a different swing pattern algo (the above chart is from a hw unit btw). as mentioned earlier there exists "SP groove templates" for logic or reason i forget, i remember trying them couple years ago but didn't feel it captured the SP swing exactly although i didn't A/B them directly like i've done now with the MP. i always concluded it had to do with the different ppq, but i guess there could be other factors such as jitter..
I know from the manual. Don`t multiply entities (c) Occam.
Plus I own 3k, do not think Akai would have passed on any magical techniques existing in competitor's productr in their newer product. You can try for urself - is there any way to save sequnce to PC\another HW via MIDI dump?
Or you can play 1 bar quantized 8ths, write down the note positions, apply swing and write down the note positions once pore and then compare. Odd notes will be on grid. This will work, of course, only if the SP displays the note position in Segment mode.
Old 16th September 2012 | Show parent
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH ➑️
I know from the manual. Don`t multiply entities (c) Occam.
what is that algebra 101? the fact is no computer science book will reveal the actual programming tricks or deficiencies (jitter) inside the SP-1200, there are just too many variables concerning this issue to just spit out text book information

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH ➑️
Plus I own 3k, do not think Akai would have passed on any magical techniques existing in competitor's productr in their newer product. You can try for urself - is there any way to save sequnce to PC\another HW via MIDI dump?
why do you keep referring to this as magic? the above chart has nothing magical about it, it's just swing patterns. i also wouldn't underestimate e-mu engineers especially on the creative/think otb approach, but rest assured akai and especially the 3000 are not in any way inferior because they swing differently, if anything the 3000 is a lot more accurate then the SP could ever be ... it's technically superior in many aspects if that can reassure you (i have the feeling the past aggressiveness and accusations of "magic" and other mockeries are merely the expression of a 3K owner inferiority complex ) anyways i've wasted enough time/energy on this, let's give it a rest
Old 16th September 2012 | Show parent
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax ➑️
what is that algebra 101? the fact is no computer science book will reveal the actual programming tricks or deficiencies (jitter) inside the SP-1200, there are just too many variables concerning this issue to just spit out text book information



why do you keep referring to this as magic? the above chart has nothing magical about it, it's just swing patterns. i also wouldn't underestimate e-mu engineers especially on the creative/think otb approach, but rest assured akai and especially the 3000 are not in any way inferior because they swing differently, if anything the 3000 is a lot more accurate then the SP could ever be ... it's technically superior in many aspects if that can reassure you (i have the feeling the past aggressiveness and accusations of "magic" and other mockeries are merely the expression of a 3K owner inferiority complex ) anyways i've wasted enough time/energy on this, let's give it a rest
Sorry, I am tired enough too. You cannot give knowledge to those do not want to know.
Old 16th September 2012 | Show parent
  #67
szf
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For what it's worth, I tested the jitter on my sp12 a while ago, quite solid, about 20 samples max.
Agree that the sp has a swing like no other seq can emulate... even sounds groovy at 50% quantize.

Also @ fooloof, all jitter is not alike.. some jitter is very uniform or so low as to be barely worth talking about e.g. mpc3k, mpc4k.
Conversely DAW midi jitter is very random, and even if it's low, sounds like s*it due to it being as random as it is.

For maths, Innerclock Systems - Precision Midi Clock Din Sync and Tempo Synchronisation Solutions
Old 17th September 2012
  #68
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thanks sfz, i know anyone that has tried or owns an sp has to agree the swing on it is wild. notice it's those that have never tried it that doubt. i'm also not surprised to hear you report the low jitter. although i haven't performed number tests, i've had very solid results slaving the SP to my numerous other drum machines.. i actually own an innerclock device as timing and jitter is a main concern when syncing vintage machines but i've never found the need to use it with the SP (or the MP60 for that matter)
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #69
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I also sync my sp to an mpc4k or 2kxl, or otherwise trigger the sp drums from the mpc... as the midi response quite fast too.. Never had sync problems either.
I find some music work better with the sp groove, other times more rigid mpc timing works better..
I find high hat patterns always sound unusually funky on the sp, kind of live drummer sounding.. mpc is more of a funky robot
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by szf ➑️
I also sync my sp to an mpc4k or 2kxl, or otherwise trigger the sp drums from the mpc... as the midi response quite fast too.. Never had sync problems either.
I find some music work better with the sp groove, other times more rigid mpc timing works better..
I find high hat patterns always sound unusually funky on the sp, kind of live drummer sounding.. mpc is more of a funky robot
May I ask you to sample a Dirac impulse (1 sample spike) to the SP and record 2 bars of it with quantized 16ths at 120 bpm at 50% swing and post it here? Thanks
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #71
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^ just go out and buy/trade for an SP (i know you secretly dream of owning one )

Quote:
Originally Posted by szf ➑️
I find high hat patterns always sound unusually funky on the sp, kind of live drummer sounding.. mpc is more of a funky robot
excellent way of putting it, i agree on the hihats... i'm actually not a big fan of swing quantize normally, if i use it it's in moderation (52,54%) but on the SP i go all the way to 67% and everything in between, it doesn't sound robotic just funky
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #72
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Here are 2 unscientific mpc(4000) vs SP12 demos.
(I made these for my own curiosity after I got my sp)

Each has 3 track variations.
First two with SP12 drums triggered from an MPC4K.
Last track with internal SP12 seq used for the drums.





@ DAH Attached the jitter test wav

@ xanax I also usually don't use much quantise outside of the sp. I feel it has a more natural swing, even with high swing% compared to other machines.
Attached Files

SP12time-120bpm.wav (2.29 MB, 1291 views)

Old 17th September 2012
  #73
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sfz Thank you. One couple of questions: is playback and recording done without syncing to other devices? Because syncing (both slave and master mode) can affect the timing. I just saw the region markers in the file and got curious. Thank you once again!
The results are:
22063
22069
22055
22071
22075
22073
22072
22074
22065
22069
22070
22070
22052
22072
22074
22080
22066
22070
22070
22073
22064
22070
22055
22076
22070
22074
22073
22068
22068
22068
22072
22072
So what can we conclude?
1. The actual tempo of the SP is a little bit slower, than what BPM is set (22050 samples for 120 bpm)
2. Jitter is continously present, not just random large overshoots into the faster or slower tempo.
3. Maximal value of the difference between 2 notes' distance is 21 samples which is not bad at all (22055 and 22076)
the Liveness of the SP timing i can only assume is related to its barely perceivable, yet consistent jitter which is not high enough to sound crippled-walking and not stiff enough to sound robotic.
xanax You see, there are helpful people in the world.
Old 17th September 2012
  #74
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Double the Tempo (so it's more of an 1/8th note Triplets)... Set the swing to 71%... Part of it has to deal with the low resolution truncating...

If you're not happy with the results... Blame Q-Tip... That's who gave me the tip....
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #75
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@DAH No problem, On the wav file, the SP was in pattern mode, no slave/master sync, just a standalone test.

Your analysis is interesting, my mpc2kxl has a jitter of around 60 samples, still sounds a bit funky, but maybe a little more 'crippled walking'.. On the other hand I tested my ex rs7000, which had a jitter of 170 samples or so... which always sounded really, really bad.
Maybe the sweet spot is 10-30 samples of slighlty uniform jitter.. Matching why the mpc60 and sp are considered kings of swing.
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken_English ➑️
Double the Tempo (so it's more of an 1/8th note Triplets)... Set the swing to 71%... Part of it has to deal with the low resolution truncating...

If you're not happy with the results... Blame Q-Tip... That's who gave me the tip....
It will be effectively 71% 16th swing.
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by szf ➑️
Your analysis is interesting, my mpc2kxl has a jitter of around 60 samples, still sounds a bit funky, but maybe a little more 'crippled walking'.. On the other hand I tested my ex rs7000, which had a jitter of 170 samples or so... which always sounded really, really bad.
Maybe the sweet spot is 10-30 samples of slighlty uniform jitter.. Matching why the mpc60 and sp are considered kings of swing.
MPC60 has 18 samples of jitter, so it's practically the same as the SP yet the swing on the same settings sound completely different, maybe it's got to do with continuous vs variable jitter but i'm still not ruling out my low ppq / different swing pattern algo theory.. the only way to know for sure would be to track down the original e-mu engineers, not an impossible task as they recently participated in the SP book (which btw is about to be re-printed) maybe i'll contact the author about this..
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #78
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mpc60 setup the same as in my sp test gives 1 sample of jitter on the mpc60 with internal sync and pattern mode (according to innerclock)..

External midi sync gives 11-15 samples.. which I didn't do the jitter test on..

I guess we would have to do all the tests with mpc60 internal/external sync and the sp12 a bunch of different swing settings, then make graphs to *see the swing difference.. Too much work for me though, do let us know if you get in touch with the engineers, just as curious about what they would say.
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by szf ➑️
mpc60 setup the same as in my sp test gives 1 sample of jitter on the mpc60 with internal sync and pattern mode (according to innerclock)..
that is the litmus midi test you are referring to, here is the original litmus test link:
Innerclock Systems - Precision Midi Clock Din Sync and Tempo Synchronisation Solutions

besides the jitter you must keep in mind the MPC 60/3000 have a resolution of 96 ppq, whereas the SP only has 24 ppq giving it a much coarser quantize.. of course i'll post it up if i ever hear back from e-mu..
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax ➑️
that is the litmus midi test you are referring to, here is the original litmus test link:
Innerclock Systems - Precision Midi Clock Din Sync and Tempo Synchronisation Solutions

besides the jitter you must keep in mind the MPC 60/3000 have a resolution of 96 ppq, whereas the SP only has 24 ppq giving it a much coarser quantize.. of course i'll post it up if i ever hear back from e-mu..
Are you saying that coarser quantize has an effect when swing is set 50%?
Old 17th September 2012
  #81
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is that a trick question dah? 50%=no swing however szf said he found the SP groovy even at 50% so go figure..
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax ➑️
is that a trick question dah? 50%=no swing however szf said he found the SP groovy even at 50% so go figure..
I am really questionong your logic\knowledge\opinion\belief, no tricks. However depending on your answer I will make a final conclusion on your HW seq swing knowledge motivation. Hint: jitter does not depend on the PPQ since most of the time it far less than a tick. at 120 BPM 1 tick at 24 ppq wil be...... 918,75 samples, or 229,6875 at 96 ppq
Old 17th September 2012
  #83
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oh here we go again.... we're really running in circles here i'm done playing the math quiz game with you, have fun stroking yourself genius
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax ➑️
oh here we go again.... we're really running in circles here i'm done playing the math quiz game with you, have fun stroking yourself genius
So I suppose you were not playing... You was indeed...
Cmon man state your frank opinion, does low PPQ affect the straight quantize timing or not, and we re cool. I promise no more math and calling out.
Old 17th September 2012
  #85
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i never said low ppq affected straight quantize, the point of this whole thread is about swing quantize.
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax ➑️
i never said low ppq affected straight quantize, the point of this whole thread is about swing quantize.
ok, does the lower PPQ contribute to the swing quantized feel?
Old 17th September 2012
  #87
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you tell me swing master of the universe
this is getting ridiculous, we've already been through all this on page 2...
i'm gonna go make a beat on my SP while you sit here and figure this out
Old 17th September 2012
  #88
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oh, stay in the darkness true believer.
Old 18th September 2012
  #89
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oh please enlighten us with your swing wisdom master yoda… funny for you to be so arrogant when you never even touched an SP irl, i still remember you creepily asking GS members to "let you touch" their SP couple months ago… i also remember helping you figure out 909 layer techniques Pete Rock might have used, so why you trying to get so smart on me??! i think you're just profoundly insecure but let me ask you something, did you even know the SP had a different swing feel? … if it weren't for me starting this thread you wouldn't have even had the jitter data to test out your little theory doc, you should be thanking me really.. but in the end it don't matter who's theory is correct about the SP swing, the only thing that really matters is that the swing exists but on the other hand you'll probably never get a chance to appreciate it.. not too many SPs where u at right.. that must be frustrating so you're here trying to break balls.. it mustn't be comforting knowing the closest you'll ever get to a SP is on YT but i'm not the one responsible for your ****ty life conditions so please try and be more respectful in the future
Old 18th September 2012 | Show parent
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax ➑️
oh please enlighten us with your swing wisdom master yoda… funny for you to be so arrogant when you never even touched an SP irl, i still remember you creepily asking GS members to "let you touch" their SP couple months ago… i also remember helping you figure out 909 layer techniques Pete Rock might have used, so why you trying to get so smart on me??! i think you're just profoundly insecure but let me ask you something, did you even know the SP had a different swing feel? … if it weren't for me starting this thread you wouldn't have even had the jitter data to test out your little theory doc, you should be thanking me really.. but in the end it don't matter who's theory is correct about the SP swing, the only thing that really matters is that the swing exists but on the other hand you'll probably never get a chance to appreciate it.. not too many SPs where u at right.. that must be frustrating so you're here trying to break balls.. it mustn't be comforting knowing the closest you'll ever get to a SP is on YT but i'm not the one responsible for your ****ty life conditions so please try and be more respectful in the future
respect an ignorant math-refuser?
BTW I am not a bit frustrated off not owning an SP, my 3k is gathering dust and gets played every so often when the mood comes. I am arrogant not because of gear, but because some men just cant declare their position frankly and have no arguments.
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