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Need to reinvent my drum game.
Old 9th September 2012
  #1
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Need to reinvent my drum game.

808s are wack as hell already.

1. How do i get better with my drum rhythms?

When I make beats, I have a huge problem making drum patterns that aren't simplistic (amen break for example). I know TONS of rhythms and I know 8ths, 16ths, syncopated rhythms etc.

I think my problem is that I have a hard time how my one drums intergrates and reacts to other drums.

I think practicing my drum set will help. What are some exercises to help my rhythms and gain dependency?

2. I am contemplating of getting an MPC Ren, or Maschine Mikro. I want hard hitting drums like those of Kanye West, the drum in Power, are TRULY powerful.

Any advice given would be appreciated
Old 9th September 2012
  #2
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Seems there are two thing you are trying to address here. Just a few questions I would like to ask.

You said you were currently contemplating whether to get a maschine or a MPC Rennaisance, does that mean you are currently clicking in midi patterns or are you using your midi keyboard?

As to the hard hitting drums you have to realize that more or less a lot goes into the drums. Between picking the samples, to layering, to the processing, to the conversion. So while one part of your chain may be good another might be holding your drums back. The drums in power sound pretty simple to me. I'm pretty sure you can do it, all I would recommend in terms of adding that extra oomph into your drums are layering, adding a few plugins here and there and optimizing your chain. There are a whole lot of things you can throw on drums to give them that extra snap, everything from distortion to things like max bass to compression to transient designer to bit crushing. Even run some of it through some outboard gear then back in.

I would also check out parallel processing your drums. Smash the dynamics to heck on the duplicate drum track then adjust the gain on the duplicate in accordance with the first and that will definitely give your drums a bit more thickness.

All of this in accordance with a good sound card/interface can make a world of difference.
This is just off the top of my head but don't be afraid to experiment.
Hope it helps.

Something you might want to check out in respect to instrumentals with heavy drums Lupe Fiasco - Words I Never Said (Instrumental With Hook) FULL HQ VERSION - YouTube
Old 9th September 2012
  #3
Gear Addict
 
lemonsquash's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
alot of the mojo also comes from hardware used in the mixing stage. arrange the whole instrumental so that it leaves the engineer room for lifting up frequencies. Also, mono hits harder. Just leave some air and it will bang. I know its tough in the Pro Tools era.
Old 9th September 2012
  #4
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
If you want to experiment with drum patterns you might consider playing at a local store with an Arturia Spark and see if it helps unlock pattern ideas.

Old 9th September 2012
  #5
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Only thing I can add is
If you need to reinvent then do some things that you are completely unfamiliar with and incorporate them into what you want to do.
Old 9th September 2012
  #6
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Knowing how to play drums doesn't matter that much for what you're doing. I guarantee you Kanye doesn't know the first thing about playing a drum kit. The type of midi controller you use isn't going to matter either. Drum loops like Amen have room ambience, reverb, resonance, ghost notes, record crackle, etc that give an organic richness to the sound that you cannot get by using single hits from sample packs or synthetic drum machine sounds.
Old 9th September 2012
  #7
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Drums!

If you want banging drums its all about the groove and sound selection.

Youd be surprised how much of a difference moving sounds around a few samples (timing wise) will effect the groove of your drums. Very important to uphold the groove!

The knock comes from sound selection and space. Maintaining space for the frequencies which represent the knock will allow your drums to knock while other instrumentation is going on.

But to me it sounds like you need to reintroduce yourself to your daw and remember that it is a program to help you get the perfect performance. Your drums should be a performance edited in a daw, a midi sequence representing a human performance, not a computer generated, "this is kind of what I have in my head" drum loop.

Sent from my SCH-I510
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #8
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsowa ➑️
Knowing how to play drums doesn't matter that much for what you're doing. I guarantee you Kanye doesn't know the first thing about playing a drum kit. The type of midi controller you use isn't going to matter either.
Kanye started making beats with a $200 8-bit sampler, a computer and a keyboard. When he was 14.

Old 9th September 2012
  #9
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Yep. Sound Selection, Dynamics, and swing or groove.
Old 10th September 2012
  #10
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
start adding ghost notes and different variations of kick, snare, hh sounds
Old 10th September 2012
  #11
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Round robin the same sample at 5 velocities 5 different pans and do this with two samples layer them put them into the mixer automate the mixer through out with effects and see what you come up with. Beware you're CPU will hate you so you may want to export it out then bring it back in.
Old 10th September 2012
  #12
Lives for gear
 
CRACKPIPE's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
808s are not wack. They are classic, albeit overused.

Listen to good music of the early to mid seventies. Listen to the drums, and be inspired.
Old 10th September 2012 | Show parent
  #13
KT1
Lives for gear
 
KT1's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsowa ➑️
Knowing how to play drums doesn't matter that much for what you're doing. I guarantee you Kanye doesn't know the first thing about playing a drum kit. The type of midi controller you use isn't going to matter either. Drum loops like Amen have room ambience, reverb, resonance, ghost notes, record crackle, etc that give an organic richness to the sound that you cannot get by using single hits from sample packs or synthetic drum machine sounds.
I have a lot of respect for your experience JD. That being said im not sure I agree with this.

- Knowing how to play drums will make for better programs. I dont know a single drum player/programmer (of a decent standard) that cant bring significantly more to a drum program vs someone who has no experience with Drums.

-That being said i also know some very talented individuals who have 0 experience and create some great programs.

- You're absolutely correct. Breaks to have ambience room, ghost notes etc. In face using a break is generally saying your mix space (the synthtic space (room) you create is very much dependent on the drums) In my opinion.

- So what i'm trying to say is that although it can be a challenge to create that real vibe and using any real one shot choke type program is not going to help. The samples need to breath and the full tails played our where applicable. A lot of one shots dont allow for this. That being said a well chopped break can and will. I think there are techniques for live drum programs but the sample material is relevant.

- Layering drums is just one way to create a new drum sound. You can layer grooves.


---- To the OP if you want something different. Why not get your session BPM and program a strange and unconventional hat pattern. Really take your time to vibe it and use open and closed hats and other articulations. Once happy mute it. Now repeat with the kick and snare. Pay attention to the velocity/dynamics and use a couple of samples with variation to create a left/right hand strike or even add a different snare (2 snares).

Now listen to both? A big mess right? or not..Now go into the audio and start removing content from hat/snare and kick where it isnt working and the groove will start to take shape. It will be un-like your usual program. Rinse and repeat and take note of what you liked and didnt. Build up a collection of midi or audio loops to be used in the future.

Bless
Old 11th September 2012
  #14
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambience ➑️
How do i get better with my drum rhythms?

When I make beats, I have a huge problem making drum patterns that aren't simplistic (amen break for example). I know TONS of rhythms and I know 8ths, 16ths, syncopated rhythms etc.

I think my problem is that I have a hard time how my one drums intergrates and reacts to other drums.

I think practicing my drum set will help. What are some exercises to help my rhythms and gain dependency?
There are some good lessons here: JeremyEllisMusic - YouTube
Old 11th September 2012
  #15
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambience ➑️
808s are wack as hell already.

1. How do i get better with my drum rhythms?

When I make beats, I have a huge problem making drum patterns that aren't simplistic (amen break for example). I know TONS of rhythms and I know 8ths, 16ths, syncopated rhythms etc.

I think my problem is that I have a hard time how my one drums intergrates and reacts to other drums.

I think practicing my drum set will help. What are some exercises to help my rhythms and gain dependency?

2. I am contemplating of getting an MPC Ren, or Maschine Mikro. I want hard hitting drums like those of Kanye West, the drum in Power, are TRULY powerful.

Any advice given would be appreciated
Bro, if you know a little about rythym, just listen to modern hip hop tracks and try to do what they do but with ur own style.. This upped my game for sure. It helps getting familiar with your DAW on how to program diff variations.

Peace
Old 11th September 2012
  #16
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years


Great practice is just playing the drums.Should come naturally.
Old 11th September 2012 | Show parent
  #17
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cricketz ➑️
There are some good lessons here: JeremyEllisMusic - YouTube
I really dont like this Ellis guy.Pretentious nonesense......
Old 11th September 2012 | Show parent
  #18
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by KT1 ➑️
I have a lot of respect for your experience JD. That being said im not sure I agree with this.

- Knowing how to play drums will make for better programs. I dont know a single drum player/programmer (of a decent standard) that cant bring significantly more to a drum program vs someone who has no experience with Drums.

-That being said i also know some very talented individuals who have 0 experience and create some great programs.

- You're absolutely correct. Breaks to have ambience room, ghost notes etc. In face using a break is generally saying your mix space (the synthtic space (room) you create is very much dependent on the drums) In my opinion.

- So what i'm trying to say is that although it can be a challenge to create that real vibe and using any real one shot choke type program is not going to help. The samples need to breath and the full tails played our where applicable. A lot of one shots dont allow for this. That being said a well chopped break can and will. I think there are techniques for live drum programs but the sample material is relevant.

- Layering drums is just one way to create a new drum sound. You can layer grooves.


---- To the OP if you want something different. Why not get your session BPM and program a strange and unconventional hat pattern. Really take your time to vibe it and use open and closed hats and other articulations. Once happy mute it. Now repeat with the kick and snare. Pay attention to the velocity/dynamics and use a couple of samples with variation to create a left/right hand strike or even add a different snare (2 snares).

Now listen to both? A big mess right? or not..Now go into the audio and start removing content from hat/snare and kick where it isnt working and the groove will start to take shape. It will be un-like your usual program. Rinse and repeat and take note of what you liked and didnt. Build up a collection of midi or audio loops to be used in the future.

Bless
Having knowledge of how drums work and what role they play in the music you are trying to make are a significant factor on how "on point" your drums are.

KT you said that knowing how to play drums will make for better programs and I agree with that, but I would say that experience with drum programming will get you good programs as well. With that being said, if you find an experienced drum programmer, his experience has probably included picking up the stix and going to town at least a few times so it's semantics at that point. blah

I love the "out of the box" ways of creating programs that you have described. Not only will it give you a way to find a groove, but it also teaches how each element works on it's own and how it creates a synergy with the rest of the elements. Nice!


To the OP
Usually when I get stuck with drums, I go sample digging. I load up a rex and audition samples in time with whatever song I am working on. But I also like to use my hands and start knee slapping. Whether it's fills or loops, I groove with my hands and then program sounds to match my patterns. It takes a bit of tweaking and experience to know how to choose sounds that translate knee slaps into cadences, but working at it will get you stellar results. Don't settle!

Another thing that keeps my drums a drumming along is maintaining a drum bank. At this point, if I need a sound, I know where I have to go. If I want a punchy kick I can find the exact kick or the bare essentials of what I am looking for in less than 30 seconds. So organization and drum design are huge factors too.

All that being said, don't forget it's all about feeling. If you aren't feeling it, it's not gonna work and you should keep what you like and come back to it at a later time.
Old 11th September 2012 | Show parent
  #19
KT1
Lives for gear
 
KT1's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zachariah ➑️
Having knowledge of how drums work and what role they play in the music you are trying to make are a significant factor on how "on point" your drums are.

KT you said that knowing how to play drums will make for better programs and I agree with that, but I would say that experience with drum programming will get you good programs as well. With that being said, if you find an experienced drum programmer, his experience has probably included picking up the stix and going to town at least a few times so it's semantics at that point. blah
Totally agree, Well articulated.
Old 11th September 2012 | Show parent
  #20
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goa-Dubs ➑️
I really dont like this Ellis guy.Pretentious nonesense......
Hardly. He seems very down to earth and is incredibly talented.



I think it's great that he's taking the time to share his techniques.
Old 11th September 2012
  #21
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cricketz ➑️
Hardly. He seems very down to earth and is incredibly talented.



I think it's great that he's taking the time to share his techniques.
Thanks for the video. Truly inspiring, i grew up playing piano to never though of incorporating that skill set the way he is! Thanks man!
Old 11th September 2012
  #22
Hobbs_Won
Guest
Practice

and Battery 3
Old 11th September 2012 | Show parent
  #23
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cricketz ➑️

I think it's great that he's taking the time to share his techniques.
WOOP-WOOPP!!!!!!!!NI maschine alert,NI maschine alert
Old 11th September 2012
  #24
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
listen to some different type of music..talking about drums and groove..try some afro beat. Fela Kuti, Babatunde.. Nigerian masters imo. Also i've been into Taiko lately, Japanese percussion stuff. Lot's of dynamics in that, interesting instruments. Just listen to different ****.
Old 11th September 2012
  #25
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by aproblem ➑️
listen to some different type of music..talking about drums and groove..try some afro beat. Fela Kuti, Babatunde.. Nigerian masters imo. Also i've been into Taiko lately, Japanese percussion stuff. Lot's of dynamics in that, interesting instruments. Just listen to different ****.
I love traditional japanese classical music. Kotos and kettle drums are so damn cool!

Sent from my SCH-I510
Old 11th September 2012
  #26
Lives for gear
 
3rd Degree's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I am going to have to agree with a lot of people.

As for sound, it's going to be all about the samples you use. How do you know if you are picking good samples? You don't at first, you keep trying new things until you you are confident.

After you are picking out good samples, you likely want to learn how to layer drums. To me, there is no science to this (well there is but you don't need to know it), you just experiment. Just use a basic step sequencer and see how drums change when you combine them, overlap them, etc.

Then learn drum processing, that's too lengthy for this thread. To me, that's the priority, picking the right samples first, layering them well (if you want to) second, processing them (if you want to) 3rd.




As for patterns, get a controller if you don't have one. If you do, just start banging things out. I used to spend 15 min every day just hitting pads or keys before I started making beats.

Listen to different hip hop you like and analyze it. Listen to what the drums are doing. However, also listen to how they fit into the melody, bass, and other elements. I can tell you right now though, I can trick someone into thinking I have simple drum changes up by how I arrange my melody so be aware of what else is going on.


This is something you practice over and over for as long as you make beats. At some point, you will be way better than you are now and still feel like you use the same melodies over and over. You then have to decide how much of it is your signature sound, and what is you not progressing. Then you have to decide if you want to change your signature sound, down the road. Repeat every 6 months.
Old 11th September 2012
  #27
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Thanks guys! The thread really helped!
Old 12th September 2012 | Show parent
  #28
Lives for gear
 
atma's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
buying an mpc or maschine will not make your drums knock any harder. drums knock hard because of mixing expertise, period.

the best way to improve is to listen to good drummersβ€”expand your horizons; listen to jazz or death metal drummers and start deconstructing what they're doing and how and why it works.
Old 12th September 2012
  #29
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Bro if you really want to reinvent your drum game listen to the power violence genre and take note. They got the hardest hitting drums out.
Old 13th September 2012 | Show parent
  #30
Lives for gear
 
KevWest's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
808s are wack? You aren't using your 808s right. Layering 808s under a regular kick really makes a powerful drum sound and that is what a lot of people like Kanye West are doing these days.
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