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Bad "ess" sounds after compressing...
Old 20th May 2006
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
JohnnyPraze's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Bad "ess" sounds after compressing...

After I compress my vocals (very little or heavily) I'm getting a bad "essing" problem.

I'm recording with a Rode NT1000 (using a pop screen) and Maudio Tampa.

I'm using various software compressors (RenComp, Comp1, PSPs VW, etc...) and its almost too bad for a de-esser. It Sounds too unnatural.

My voice isnt a big voice, not very deep, and I do have some "essing" to begin with, but its much more noticable after compressing.

Any tips, or ideas???
Old 20th May 2006
  #2
Gear Nut
 
🎧 15 years
I'd try de-essor before compressor, then if that doesn't work, manually trim them
using automation of the volume.

There have been a bunch of posts about de-essing try this one

https://gearspace.com/board/showthre...ight=de+essing
Old 20th May 2006
  #3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I would use the sample editor to home in on the offending sections and apply a few db,s of gain reduction and a subtle fade out in order to minimize sibilance and plosives.

Applying subtle de-essing /multiband compression tuned to the problem frequencies in conjunction with the previous technique should give good results.

In addition you could also insert a de-esser or parametric eq before reverb in your fx chain in order to stop the reverb working too much on the sibilant sections. ( a darker reverb should be a good choice)

Also experiment with positioning the mic slightly off axis and changing distance to fix the problem at source.

You can also work on your vocal technique and learn to use less effort when performing problem words and experiment with the way you shape your mouth:pay careful attention to the way you use your tongue and teeth which have the most impact on ess type sounds.

Cheers,
Funk
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #4
Gear Maniac
 
JohnnyPraze's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I've tried de-essing before and after and still a no go...

Mic placement isnt a problem. Ive tried all types of positioning.

Vocal technique is the hardest part because my teeth naturally make almost a whistling ess.

I also tried cotton in the mouth but that didnt do anything.


Im thinking about trying some dental wax on my front top teeth. (The stuff they give to kids with braces...)

Im not sure if it will stay, or do anything...

Any other ideas???
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #5
Lives for gear
 
boodah's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Is the DeEsser the first in your plug in chain?
If you're using waves Ren DeEsser, check this out: http://www.dc.umich.edu/dmc/emusic/D...s/RDeEsser.PDF
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #6
Gear Maniac
 
JohnnyPraze's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Im using a software de-esser's...
Old 20th May 2006
  #7
Gear Nut
 
Dan DeTora's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
i just mixed a song with some pretty bad sibilance. this cat's S's where happening at various frequencies... mainly 4k and 9k. i don't know if it was the wrong mic or just the way dude sounds naturally (i didn't track the vocals). chaining 2 dessers at different frequencies helped.

otherwise, i'd try and fix your 's' problems at the source. or try another mic, perhaps a darker one? most LDC have quite a presence boost....which ain't helping ya. maybe try a ribbon mic.
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #8
Lives for gear
 
7 Hz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Get a better, non-silibant mic. Rode's are crap for bright voices. use a high end dynamic or get one of the few LDC's that DOESN'T exagurate the high end.
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #9
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
the pencil trick.

Usually ess's are due to mic placement....not always but a majority of the time....take a pencil and set it up in front of the capsule....problem solved...
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #10
Gear Maniac
 
JohnnyPraze's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polyphony
the pencil trick.

Usually ess's are due to mic placement....not always but a majority of the time....take a pencil and set it up in front of the capsule....problem solved...
Tried that when working on placement, still a no go.

I havent tried going in and manually lowering the problem areas. This looks like my only option.


I'm starting to think its the mic and my voice.

Any other advice is welcome before I start looking for a new mic.

Any suggestions on Darker Mics around $300-$450
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #11
Lives for gear
 
GYMusic's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Post a file of it. Let us hear it.
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #12
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
hhmmm....I used the pencil trick on a Rhodes and it worked...I used it on a female voice but they have ess's in a different frequency range.....there is only one other suggestion I could make and that would be tissue paper, pencil, and pop screen.....but you'll probably kill your high end....
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #13
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyPraze

Any suggestions on Darker Mics around $300-$450
try a 57 or a 58....I'd have to hear your voice tho....
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #14
Gear Addict
 
Psyko/Acoustics's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Instead of dental wax, try some chewing gum (which you probably have at hand). Unless it makes your mouth water too much.
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #15
Gear Maniac
 
JohnnyPraze's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
So I've done a few takes trying different things and got a take thats not too bad.

Take a listen and tell me if it sounds ok, or too unnatural.

Also criticism on the quality and sound in general is welcomed...(not performance/take. Just tryin to get a good sound)
Attached Files

Accapella.mp3 (1.22 MB, 227 views)

Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #16
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
try different mic and/or pre. the A Designs pres are really great at rolling off high end sibilants, esp P1 and Pacifica
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #17
Moderator
 
TonyBelmont's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco D
try different mic and/or pre. the A Designs pres are really great at rolling off high end sibilants, esp P1 and Pacifica
Really...? I've found the opposite true with the P1...

The P1/ Pacifica seems to add more high end to me.
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #18
Gear Addict
 
Psyko/Acoustics's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
On the "pencil trick":

I thought it was only useful for reducing plosives by breaking the wavefront, not de-essing.


What's the deal?
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #19
Gear Maniac
 
JohnnyPraze's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
So does it still sound bad, or unnatural...?
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #20
Lives for gear
 
GYMusic's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Yep... it is a bit essy. You've also got some low freq pops and could use a breath screen in front of the mic.

Do you have a wave editing program that has a frequency spectrum analyzer? Look at the vocal wave file... you can easily see the offending frequency range of the esses. Usually between 8 and 12 KHz. Try dipping that range 2 or 3 dB using a parametric EQ at a fairly narrow "Q".
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #21
MDM
Gear Addict
 
MDM's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I also find Rode-mics very sibbilant in general

As for De-esser, the only software de-esser that I liked is the side-chain EQ in the Sony Oxford Dynamics

Otherwise, I'd just go for Automation in your DAW -- that sounds the best and it's not that much work .. looks like a lot of work, but once you into it, you'll manage to get a very natural sounding result...
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #22
Gear Nut
 
Raggedy's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyPraze

Any suggestions on Darker Mics around $300-$450
First, I'd try backing up from the mic about a foot, and if that didn't work, I'd take a look at the Shure SM7b. Or if you must have a LDC, people seem to like the ADK Hamburg and MXL V69 in that price range, though I haven't tried them.
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #23
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont
Really...? I've found the opposite true with the P1...

The P1/ Pacifica seems to add more high end to me.
What mics are you using with it? I've tried the U195 in NY and the C1 in Brasil and they both sound great. The sibilants on the C1 completely get rounded out when pushed thru the mic. Are you giving it enough gain? I crank that **** until it close to peaks the pro tools meter and it sounds great. Some compression and a touch of verb and I'm done.
Old 21st May 2006 | Show parent
  #24
Moderator
 
TonyBelmont's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco D
What mics are you using with it? I've tried the U195 in NY and the C1 in Brasil and they both sound great. The sibilants on the C1 completely get rounded out when pushed thru the mic. Are you giving it enough gain? I crank that **** until it close to peaks the pro tools meter and it sounds great. Some compression and a touch of verb and I'm done.
Just speaking in general... the P1 is considerably brighter than the API's and Neve's that I typically use. If you have a mic that is already sibilant (like many Rode or BLUE microphones, and the chinese LDC's), then the P1 & Pacifica wouldn't be a good choice, because it emphasizes the high end.

Either way it's still a good pre... and can sound great with many microphones.
Old 21st May 2006 | Show parent
  #25
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
the C1 is a chinese LDM and it sounds great thru the P1. I havent tried it on my neves but i dont find it any less pleasant than my neve 1066 and U195
Old 21st May 2006 | Show parent
  #26
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
just different
Old 21st May 2006 | Show parent
  #27
Moderator
 
TonyBelmont's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I don't have any experience with the C1, but you obviously like the results...

I just wouldn't want someone to buy a P1 or Pacifica thinking it's going to cure their sibilance problems. The Pacifica & P1 are definitely brighter than the Neve's and API's, so I don't find them good at rolling off highs. The little bit extra high end from the Pacifica is what makes it different. This is actually why I like them as a third preamp option in a rack(behind the venerable Neve & API combo), but not in this situation. Honestly, I don't really find any mic pre that helpful when it comes to sibilance. But, a brighter sounding preamp can make these problems stick out a little more.

It's usually the microphone or the use of the microphone.. Changing the mic out would be a better solution for those suffering from these issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco D
the A Designs pres are really great at rolling off high end sibilants, esp P1 and Pacifica
Old 21st May 2006 | Show parent
  #28
Lives for gear
 
boodah's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Are you using a pop up blocker? And how far are you from the mic. It sounds like you're pretty close. Try to be about 12" from mic. You may have to increase the gain on the mic pre. Is the Mic pointed down (hanging form ceiling) or up? And like another poster said. Find the frequencies that the s's are in 5k-8k. Use a parametric eq. and notch it up. Sweep the freq. When u find the s's accentuated drop it down 3-9db. Or use u'r deEsser and set it to the freq. u found via the param eq. And remember to put the DeEsser as the first plug in u'r chain.
Old 21st May 2006 | Show parent
  #29
Gear Maniac
 
JohnnyPraze's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The mic is pointed down and the pop blocker is about 6 inches from the mic.

However, when I record I'm never right up on the pop blocker. I'm about 6 to 8 inches from the pop blocker, so I'm around 12 to 14 inches from the mic.

I appreciate all the advice. Keep it coming.

To tell you the truth, the clip posted sounds much better compared to many other takes. The others were all very essy.

I'm going to post another clip (not of me) for comparison.

All info is very much appreciated.
Old 21st May 2006 | Show parent
  #30
Moderator
 
TonyBelmont's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyPraze
The mic is pointed down and the pop blocker is about 6 inches from the mic.

However, when I record I'm never right up on the pop blocker. I'm about 6 to 8 inches from the pop blocker, so I'm around 12 to 14 inches from the mic.

I appreciate all the advice. Keep it coming.

To tell you the truth, the clip posted sounds much better compared to many other takes. The others were all very essy.

I'm going to post another clip (not of me) for comparison.

All info is very much appreciated.
The only advice I can give you is to experiment with some other microphones and find one that suits your voice better. Also, the pop blocker isn't going to help with the sibilance problem.
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