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Reverb: Tips and Techniques
Old 5th March 2011 | Show parent
  #151
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🎧 10 years
Been experimenting...

I created a reverb track to be used as a send.

This revebr track was sent to 2 other ones so that I could treat them w/ the haas effect.

I merely wanted to use that reverb to create an ambience and as such, wanted the left side of the room to sound different from the right side.
So basically the same reverb was then mono on both side and the right side would be belated.

Then to emphasize the difference, I put a 1/4 echo on the left and some eq and compression on the right.

The levels were too different on my reverberant L and R channels so I put them closer dB wise.

Finally it didn't sounded too bad, but I thing it highly depends on the reverb chosen and how effected are the mono channels.

And a shoutout to Pensado's place and Dave himself who inspired this.
Old 6th March 2011 | Show parent
  #152
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Storyville's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by B.A.S.E ➑️
Been experimenting...

I created a reverb track to be used as a send.

This revebr track was sent to 2 other ones so that I could treat them w/ the haas effect.

I merely wanted to use that reverb to create an ambience and as such, wanted the left side of the room to sound different from the right side.
So basically the same reverb was then mono on both side and the right side would be belated.

Then to emphasize the difference, I put a 1/4 echo on the left and some eq and compression on the right.

The levels were too different on my reverberant L and R channels so I put them closer dB wise.

Finally it didn't sounded too bad, but I thing it highly depends on the reverb chosen and how effected are the mono channels.

And a shoutout to Pensado's place and Dave himself who inspired this.
A perhaps more interesting and flexible (and less encumbersome) way to do this is to create two separate mono reverb units, and return them hard left and right. You can adjust some of the subtler parameters - including pre-delay to help the imaging of the instrument - in addition, you can get that stereo separation without phase issues (or as many phase issues).

The Haas Zone delay effect is great for creating stereo when there is only mono - but if you can get true stereo, go for that.

Also, you can use M/S eq to scoop the mids of the center signal from the reverb, or conversely boost the mid-range on the sides to create a wider reverb. If that's what you are going for.
Old 6th March 2011 | Show parent
  #153
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storyville ➑️
A perhaps more interesting and flexible (and less encumbersome) way to do this is to create two separate mono reverb units, and return them hard left and right. You can adjust some of the subtler parameters - including pre-delay to help the imaging of the instrument - in addition, you can get that stereo separation without phase issues (or as many phase issues).

The Haas Zone delay effect is great for creating stereo when there is only mono - but if you can get true stereo, go for that.

Also, you can use M/S eq to scoop the mids of the center signal from the reverb, or conversely boost the mid-range on the sides to create a wider reverb. If that's what you are going for.
Hmmh I will have to try that next thumbsup

Yeah, I used some entangled routing so that I could just use one reverb and fly through the presets... lazyness..
But there is indeed advantages to using 2 reverb units, as you said to control the predelay, the early reflections and late reflections on each..
Going to play with that
Old 10th March 2011 | Show parent
  #154
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
..

Very interesting thread.

Does anyone record the reverb return and process it as an audio file?

I keep thinking about using groove quantize on a recorded reverb to add push and pull?

Anyone tried this or have any ideas?
Old 10th March 2011 | Show parent
  #155
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storyville ➑️
Do you have a console? I don't know how to explain it any other way. You patch the outs of a stereo cue send, one into a delay, the other into a mult. Then patch the delay out into the in of the same mult. Then you run the mult outs, one to a return channel, one to a reverb - or possibly both to the reverb if you wanted some kind of weird reverbed delay effect. Then you assign channels to the stereo cue to send them along that path.

This effectively turns your cue pan pot to a delay< >reverb knob. It's a workflow tip, and a space economics tip.

But it also depends on the architecture of the console. Not every console had independent pan control on each channel for the cue send. Some just rely on the pan control down at the fader.

In Logic, you would just send up a delay return and a reverb return and adjust the aux send levels at each channel for each instrument - there's nothing else to it. I guess if you really wanted, you could do a stereo aux send to two mono returns with a delay on the left channel return and reverb on the right channel return (could use a mono to stereo reverb on that one). Then instead of controlling two separate sends, you could use the pan knob on the stereo aux send as a delay< >reverb ratio control. Then if you wanted someting disproportionate on a track, you could simply assign another send to independently return on either the delay or reverb.
Sorry I missed your reply, I am not here too often. Thank you again.

I PMed Michael eventually and he kindly replied, it made it a bit clearer/simpler for me to understand. Basically he told me that the "PAN" does delay only on left side, reverb only on the right side and 50/50in the middle. So I worked out the routing by myself based on what it's supposed to do. I have to say, although it's interesting and I am glad to know this trick now, in Logic it's a bit fiddly and not really worth the effort, as you have to use extra busses... Could also use this for different effects. Nowadays we are spoiled with DAWs.
Old 18th March 2011 | Show parent
  #156
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
I think this is pretty useful YouTube - Into The Lair #8 Part 1/2 - Vocal Effects
Old 18th March 2011 | Show parent
  #157
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Storyville's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SochiTag ➑️
Very interesting thread.

Does anyone record the reverb return and process it as an audio file?

I keep thinking about using groove quantize on a recorded reverb to add push and pull?

Anyone tried this or have any ideas?
Never tried groove quantize - I'd say give it a shot see what happens. I do run prints of my reverb when I'm mixing at home - saves CPU. I do process the reverb from time to time - sometimes a setting will work just right but be a little ringy or woofy - eq is very helpful.
Old 18th March 2011 | Show parent
  #158
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Storyville's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by l.sicilian ➑️
Sorry I missed your reply, I am not here too often. Thank you again.

I PMed Michael eventually and he kindly replied, it made it a bit clearer/simpler for me to understand. Basically he told me that the "PAN" does delay only on left side, reverb only on the right side and 50/50in the middle. So I worked out the routing by myself based on what it's supposed to do. I have to say, although it's interesting and I am glad to know this trick now, in Logic it's a bit fiddly and not really worth the effort, as you have to use extra busses... Could also use this for different effects. Nowadays we are spoiled with DAWs.
Exactly.
Old 18th March 2011 | Show parent
  #159
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Storyville's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by djreality ➑️
Some really nice stuff here.

1:52 : "I like the timing on that" - rhythm - the pocket between the vocal and the reflections, the length of the reflections - they create a groove. He gives you some math and then follows with the bottom line: trust your ear.

The early to late is a great demo - as the amount of late goes away the vocals come forward. As the amount of early goes away - the reverb moves to the back of the sound space.

One thing I've been doing lately - and I'll post an example if I can get clearance - I get a good number of songs where the verse is rap, but the chorus is sung. Rap seems to be in the world of "dry", but singing seems to be back in the world of "wet." So I'll switch my reverbs - a subtle, primarily er sound on the rap vocals during the verses. Just enough to build some dimension and pop to the vocals, keeping them very forward. Then the chorus will be a mainly late reflection large "soundscape" - because often, there are more instruments coming in that I use to create a bigger image. It gives the song some dynamic to the imaging - verses are contained and forward - choruses are big and surrounding.
Old 19th March 2011 | Show parent
  #160
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
One thing I've been doing lately - and I'll post an example if I can get clearance - I get a good number of songs where the verse is rap, but the chorus is sung. Rap seems to be in the world of "dry", but singing seems to be back in the world of "wet." So I'll switch my reverbs - a subtle, primarily er sound on the rap vocals during the verses. Just enough to build some dimension and pop to the vocals, keeping them very forward. Then the chorus will be a mainly late reflection large "soundscape" - because often, there are more instruments coming in that I use to create a bigger image. It gives the song some dynamic to the imaging - verses are contained and forward - choruses are big and surrounding.
Interesting, wanna hear your example
Old 30th March 2011 | Show parent
  #161
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
I tried with 60ms pre and 248 rev time. Sounds horrible, like some slap back thing. Turning it up in the mix is like whoa, not so much. To get it to sound good, so you dont hear that gawd awful slap, the reverb is so low, you dont even notice its there, muted or on. Musta done something wrong... for 130 rock..

Perhaps you can link to a reverb that has all the correct controls etc, so we can get used to hearing it..and be on the same page?

~Rob.
Attached Files

eeewVerb.mp3 (507.1 KB, 930 views)

Old 30th March 2011 | Show parent
  #162
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Storyville's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I may actually re-write this thread as 1) a lot of my approach has changed since I wrote this (3 years ago), and (2) some of my explanations are confusing.

First - in your example above that slap reverb is up pretty loud. I'm usually tucking my reverbs -10 to -20db under the source.

Second - yes, that kind of setting will give you a slap effect. It's going to connect rhythmically to quarter notes if your up somewhere in the 150bpm area. This can be really good if you want your reverb to be out of the way, and if you want to "speed up" the track. If you want that big rock reverb sound, you're looking for that decay to last for a measure or more, so you're going to need a larger value.

Third - it sounds horrible - to you, in this day and age. I've heard that kind of a slap off the snare many rock songs (80s a lot). 90s Punk and Garage Rock has a lot of this short slappy reverb off the snare. Adding reverb is a lot more subjective than eqing out resonances - it has a lot to do with aesthetic and context. This thread has very little to do with context - it's primarily about how reverb functions as a rhythmic and tonal tool.

I think if you turn it down and feed just the snare into it, then feed the overheads into a longer reverb with a church algorithm (try 1.5 seconds-ish as a starting place) you might just get something more along the lines of what you're looking for.
Old 30th March 2011 | Show parent
  #163
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Here's a tip: Ensoniq SD1 plate reverb. I wouldn't be suprised if it exists in the ASR10 and maybe even DP4, but I've never checked so I have no way of knowing. This is the SH!T for snares/claps in pop and hip-hop. Any of my records where you hear an 808 clap with a plate reverb, that's the SD1. I kept meaning to make an impulse of this thing and never get around to it. So today I'm mixing a pop record and I need a plate on the snare and I'm trying Lex960 and Bricasti and I'm not happy so finally I decide to make that damn impulse from the SD1. Did four at different decay rates. Put one in and BAMB! Butter.... God I'm so happy now
Old 31st March 2011
  #164
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rickrock305's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I'm really digging these new Lexicon reverbs. Sit in a mix very nicely.
Old 31st March 2011 | Show parent
  #165
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Storyville's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I haven't tried the new new Lex stuff - but I absolutely love the Lexicon PCM - the finer controls really give you an array of textures to ways to move the energy around.

Also, big Altiverb fan. It's convolution, so it's not as customizable, but some of the impulses and controls are really cool.

I've been revisiting DVerb too - cause hell, it's there, might as well see what I can get out of it.
Old 31st March 2011
  #166
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rickrock305's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I think it's the PCM verbs I'm talking about. Guess theyre not really new, but new to me lol. They have the same parameters as the Lex hardware like the 480 and 960. Those units are THE sound of reverb to me. Just pull up a plate or hall and it's like "yea, that sounds like a record!"

Dverb is an old standby. It works when you need that cheap digital verb sound. Reminds me of a lot of the cheaper hardware reverbs, I use it where I would use one of those.

I've tried Altiverb on a few occasions, but I don't like the lack of control. I find that to be the case with all convolution verbs. I had a **** ton of impulses fr Logics convo verb and it was pretty cool.
Old 31st March 2011 | Show parent
  #167
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🎧 15 years
I like altiverb too but if you critize the lack of control you should give
Waves IR1 a try. Much more control over the impulses and reverb sculpture...
Old 31st March 2011 | Show parent
  #168
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rickrock305's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Tried it. Liked it less than Altiverb.
Old 31st March 2011 | Show parent
  #169
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Storyville's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
It's not so much the lack of control - as the effectiveness of the controls. Convolution relies on recorded impulses. Those impulses have a set time domain and frequency response - it's a recording, it is what it is. So to change the time and frequency domains you have to scale the impulse sound. So it's not that you can't change the reverb time - you just can't change it without distortion. Whereas with algorithm based reverb, the reverb is generated by the parameters set.

I do a decent amount of post work - and altiverb has excellent control for what you need in post. In music I use it if I want a specific and realistic reverb sound.

Haven't checked Waves IR. I have used RVerb (I know, totally different) a few times, wasn't totally blown away - it was a little lack luster. Definitely usable though.

I do dig the Fruity Loops stock reverb - it has a very unique sound to it that I think is kind of cool. I used the Sonnox Oxford Reverb on a mix a few weeks ago - again not as wowing as the Lex, but definitely not bad. Very thick sounding, no matter how much I seemed to play with the settings. What else.... The UAD Plate 140 is pretty cool as a set and forget type of reverb. It's nice for adding in a different texture into the reverb pot. Same thing with the Softube Spring - cool little spring emulator.

On the hardware side, one of the studios I work out of has an EV Tapco Spring reverb - they're pretty inexpensive and pretty durn nice sounding. They also have an actual 140 - which is really spectacular sounding, but it's not nearly as portable as the UAD version! The Eventide Harmonizer series have nice sounding reverb processors.
Old 1st April 2011 | Show parent
  #170
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🎧 10 years
I like to insert a different short reverb on each instrument track or section (such as percussion). Or insert the same reverb on each track and tweek each one so it is slightly different. The key here is to be subtle. Your intent is to really make each track sound as though it was recorded in its own unique space. Then I apply a longer overall reverb to all the tracks via an auxillary send. Really cleans up a mix without tweeking the eq too much. Also gives a nice 3 dimensional feel to everything.

Dave
Old 1st April 2011
  #171
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🎧 10 years
Kudos to Storyville. Crazy useful.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Gearslutz.com App
Old 1st April 2011 | Show parent
  #172
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🎧 10 years
"And with a bunch of people there absorbing the sound."

Clearly, you've never been to one of my shows.
Old 2nd July 2011 | Show parent
  #173
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🎧 10 years
Thanks to SV and everyone else for this great thread!
Earlier SV mentioned the importance of blending the "captured" reverb on a track with whatever reverb you add after the fact. Can anyone elaborate on this? What sort of things do you need to be listening for? Maybe add mostly reverb tails to a track that already has some room/ERs on it?

thanks again.
Old 2nd July 2011 | Show parent
  #174
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Storyville's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
If you want a coherent sense of reverb, matching the artificial verb with the real room sound can really make the sense of space vivid.

Match reverb time, diffuseness, overall frequency response and try and hear how quickly the high end rolls off, try and emulate the texture (that one's not always plausible). Most of this stuff can be set in the reverb unit.
Old 26th July 2011 | Show parent
  #175
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Reginator's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
This thread has been my text book for understanding and getting the most out of my reverbs. You guys are awesome for sharing this information!
Old 16th September 2011 | Show parent
  #176
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storyville ➑️
It's not so much the lack of control - as the effectiveness of the controls. Convolution relies on recorded impulses. Those impulses have a set time domain and frequency response - it's a recording, it is what it is. So to change the time and frequency domains you have to scale the impulse sound. So it's not that you can't change the reverb time - you just can't change it without distortion. Whereas with algorithm based reverb, the reverb is generated by the parameters set.
This post really cleared up a lot for me - I was first trying to adjust some of the IR settings in Cubase 5's REVerence (which are very impressive sounding), but the scale settings don't lend themselves to easy interpretation for calculation.

I instead ended up using Cubase's algorithm reverb Roomworks to try out Storyville's method, with great results. Thanks for sharing your know-how.
Old 16th September 2011 | Show parent
  #177
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🎧 10 years
I like to use varying pre delays for each instrument to move things around in the "room". This can get quite complicated, as i often have 6 or 8 busses pointing to individual aux tracks where the delays live before summing them to one or more reverbs.
Old 16th September 2011 | Show parent
  #178
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3rd Degree's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I wish I found this thread 2 years ago. Even though reverb seems so simple in theory, I have struggled with it in practice. I now get good results with beats, just using my ear, but not so much with songs. I always thought of it more from the perspective size, as in, what environment would my instruments be recording in. Then I would just tweek away once I felt I had that. On sampled stuff, it always seems easier, as it already has natural reverb. With so many poor uses to go off of when referencing tracks, it has been hard for me to connect the dots why one great use of reverb sounds so much better than a not so great track (with application of it being similar).


I kind of feel stupid, but in a good way. I know it's a time based effect but I never thought about BPM. My beats, and thus most my songs, don't vary greatly in BPM so I think that is why I was getting OK results just by using my ear. Can't wait to try some of this stuff out.
Old 16th September 2011 | Show parent
  #179
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CJ Mastering's Avatar
Here is my idiot and dummy proof straight forward description on how reverbs work and what each setting does.
Reverb tips
Old 16th September 2011 | Show parent
  #180
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Storyville's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by talontsiawd ➑️
I know it's a time based effect but I never thought about BPM. My beats, and thus most my songs, don't vary greatly in BPM so I think that is why I was getting OK results just by using my ear. Can't wait to try some of this stuff out.
It's rhythmic and tonal. The BPMs are a good starting point. But listen for rhythmic feel, and tonal cues.
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