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Anyone Using MPC w/ Pro-Tools ?
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpel ➡️
Not true. I know for a fact that the MPC 3000 retains it's swing when set as a slave to Logic, listening for MTC at a frame rate of 25.

I'm being that specific because that's how I'm working right now, and I've checked the swing on it ,just to be sure.

The only thing I was unsure about was whether it retains it's swing whilst listening for Midi beat clock. I've heard that it does not, but I haven't checked it critically.
That is a physical impossibility. Why, well if the MPC is slave then it re-syncs 25 times EVERY second based on what logic sends out. You will hear it swing yes. But the timing AINT the same. If it was, then the MPC would NOT be synced to Logic - Hence SYNC.


PS | There are TWO ways of achieving a groove. One is the Feel, i.e Shuffle, Swing etc. Two is Tempo.

Now, A real drummer can Swing and tempo change at the same time... Cant He? YES. When I say Tempo Change, in this case, I am NOT talking about 4 BPM down or up, I am talking 0.1 Up or Down. A REAL drummer CANNOT keep a steady TEMPO - he is a HUMAN and will vary his tempo within his shuffle or swing just like the MPC. ONLY, if you synch the MPC to Logic then you will ONLY have its swing but NOT it's constant tempo changes.

Try syncing Logic to the MPC with MBC. Then look at Logics Tempo - It will vary CONTINUOUSLY over time.... And THAT is exactly WHAT makes the MPC Groove. The quantization matters less as it is a mathematical certainty but the algorithm for creating the tempo variations is NOT
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TitaniumG ➡️
25ghosts yes you can put protools in MTC, MC mode but protools can not LOOP while the MPC is the master or slave with out problems. Say you have a 4 bar loop it will not play the first bar but start playing on bar 2 to 4.
True, PT WONT loop if the MPC is master. PT will continue it's timeline progression while the MPC loops. I actually like that "Feature" as my beat will often loop after 4 bars but my arrangement/song will NOT.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #33
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 25ghosts ➡️
That is a physical impossibility. Why, well if the MPC is slave then it re-syncs 25 times EVERY second based on what logic sends out. You will hear it swing yes. But the timing AINT the same. If it was, then the MPC would NOT be synced to Logic - Hence SYNC.


PS | There are TWO ways of achieving a groove. One is the Feel, i.e Shuffle, Swing etc. Two is Tempo.

Now, A real drummer can Swing and tempo change at the same time... Cant He? YES. When I say Tempo Change, in this case, I am NOT talking about 4 BPM down or up, I am talking 0.1 Up or Down. A REAL drummer CANNOT keep a steady TEMPO - he is a HUMAN and will vary his tempo within his shuffle or swing just like the MPC. ONLY, if you synch the MPC to Logic then you will ONLY have its swing but NOT it's constant tempo changes.

Try syncing Logic to the MPC with MBC. Then look at Logics Tempo - It will vary CONTINUOUSLY over time.... And THAT is exactly WHAT makes the MPC Groove. The quantization matters less as it is a mathematical certainty but the algorithm for creating the tempo variations is NOT
I'll look at the post in two halves. SWING AND TEMPO.

Firstly the point was that the MPC retains it's swing when used with MTC which it definitely does, and you even agreed in your post, that the swing would still be heard.

Secondly, since you chose to introduce TEMPO into the equation.
The MPC retains it's own tempo when slaved to another sequencer using MTC
Changing the tempo in Logic/PT will have NO effect on the Tempo in the MPC


MTC DOES NOT carry any tempo information.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #34
11413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 25ghosts ➡️
Basically, it matters not how you slave the MPC. If it is slave you will loose it's timing. If you want it's timing you will need to leave it as master.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 25ghosts ➡️
That is a physical impossibility. Why, well if the MPC is slave then it re-syncs 25 times EVERY second based on what logic sends out. You will hear it swing yes. But the timing AINT the same. If it was, then the MPC would NOT be synced to Logic - Hence SYNC.

PS | There are TWO ways of achieving a groove. One is the Feel, i.e Shuffle, Swing etc. Two is Tempo.

Now, A real drummer can Swing and tempo change at the same time... Cant He? YES. When I say Tempo Change, in this case, I am NOT talking about 4 BPM down or up, I am talking 0.1 Up or Down. A REAL drummer CANNOT keep a steady TEMPO - he is a HUMAN and will vary his tempo within his shuffle or swing just like the MPC. ONLY, if you synch the MPC to Logic then you will ONLY have its swing but NOT it's constant tempo changes.

Try syncing Logic to the MPC with MBC. Then look at Logics Tempo - It will vary CONTINUOUSLY over time.... And THAT is exactly WHAT makes the MPC Groove. The quantization matters less as it is a mathematical certainty but the algorithm for creating the tempo variations is NOT
this is very interesting...

so can you make protools midi tracks *feel* like an MPC by just syncing Protools to the MPC's MIDI clock?

a lot of ppl complain that MPC tracks never have the same feel when played back from protools..
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpel ➡️
I'll look at the post in two halves. SWING AND TEMPO.

Firstly the point was that the MPC retains it's swing when used with MTC which it definitely does, and you even agreed in your post, that the swing would still be heard.

Secondly, since you chose to introduce TEMPO into the equation.
The MPC retains it's own tempo when slaved to another sequencer using MTC
Changing the tempo in Logic/PT will have NO effect on the Tempo in the MPC


MTC DOES NOT carry any tempo information.
You dont have to believe me. Just try this.

Take a 2 bar loop from the MPC.

1) Sync the MPC to logic and then record the two track.
2) Hit play on the MPC without it being synced to Logic and record the same two bars.

If it is like you say then the two stereo signals would cancel out completely if one track is phase reversed.

I have done this test many times and it NEVER cancels out. So - there are timing differences whether you like it or not. As a matter of fact you can even feel it.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #36
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🎧 15 years
Plus, I very much doubt that the MPC has tempo variances.
It is known for it's rock solid timing (Of course my knowledge is about the Vintage 3000 and 60 models,not the 2000 onwards, there is a difference).But if so, so be it.

But I would hazard a very educated guess that your timing variance issues have more to do with Logic / protools wanting to be the Master.

Computer sequencers have long been notorious for being terrible slaves, that are prone to tempo variances.

It has never really been the "done thing" to slave a software sequencer to a hardware one for that very reason.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #37
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 25ghosts ➡️
You dont have to believe me. Just try this.

Take a 2 bar loop from the MPC.

1) Sync the MPC to logic and then record the two track.
2) Hit play on the MPC without it being synced to Logic and record the same two bars.

If it is like you say then the two stereo signals would cancel out completely if one track is phase reversed.

I have done this test many times and it NEVER cancels out. So - there are timing differences whether you like it or not. As a matter of fact you can even feel it.
I'm not sure that I understand your test. How are you synching the MPC with Logic. MTC or midi beat clock? Which is slave/Master? All these are important variables.
And why are are you recording into Logic without sync!!

Nevertheless all these things are a moot point, since the MPC retains all of it's Tempo and swing information(flawed or otherwise) when used with MTC.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #38
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpel ➡️
I'm not sure that I understand your test. How are you synching the MPC with Logic. MTC or midi beat clock? Which is slave/Master? All these are important variables.
And why are are you recording into Logic without sync!!

Nevertheless all these things are a moot point, since the MPC retains all of it's Tempo and swing information(flawed or otherwise) when used with MTC.
I dont know whether you cant or wont understand what I am saying here.

Quote:
I'm not sure that I understand your test. How are you synching the MPC with Logic. MTC or midi beat clock? Which is slave/Master? All these are important variables.
Now, why would I wanna try that at all.... Maybe to see if the MPC indeed had a different timing once running without being slaved

Your above comment proves (No disrespect meant) that you dont understand what it is that I am trying to say.

In the past, I used to program my beats sitting on the mpc without even having my DAW turned on. I would put in great amounts of time to prefect my beats. Then I would turn on my DAW and slave sync the MPC via time code. Once that was done, I was like, "Man that aint the FEEL that I have just taken hours to produce coming out now!"

Then I started to look into, what it could be that was causing the imperfection. After WEEKS, literally, I finally figured out that the reason was that once the MPC acts as a SYNC slave it looses it's MPC feel.

It aint MUCH - that it looses - BUT - if you DO HAVE micro timing is feels like someone is pulling out the hairs of your neck... I bet you that many KNOW exactly what I am talking about. As a matter of fact - I know quite a few MPC user, who bring their MPC to the commercial studio to record the vocal session and mix it there. After the engineer had slave SYNCED the MP to PT or Logic - they were "Hey, what did you do to my groove" - the engineer, who was obviously NOT in the KNOW - claimed "Nothing"... But the boys having made the beat - knew there was indeed something. And there is.....

I have given you the examples - it is up to you whether you want to debate an indisputable fact. I dont
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #39
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpel ➡️
Plus, I very much doubt that the MPC has tempo variances.
It is known for it's rock solid timing (Of course my knowledge is about the Vintage 3000 and 60 models,not the 2000 onwards, there is a difference).But if so, so be it.
.
It aint about DOUBT. It is about a FACT. Doubting means that you have NOT done the experiment yourself


Set the MPC to output Midi Clock and NOT MTC.

Then set Logic as SLAVE. Play the MPC - NOW WATCH Logic's TEMPO.

If you cant see it vary then I will make a video showing it.....

I suggest you try to experiment with this.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #40
11413
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by 25ghosts ➡️
Set the MPC to output Midi Clock and NOT MTC.

Then set Logic as SLAVE. Play the MPC - NOW WATCH Logic's TEMPO.

If you cant see it vary then I will make a video showing it.....

I suggest you try to experiment with this.
this doesnt prove that logic's tempo display is actually accurate tho.... it could be slop inside logic you're seeing.

hearing a difference is another matter... which you've already said -- your beats sound correct when you use the MPC as the master.

i have no reason to doubt this. it doesnt even mean that the MPC or logic is "better" just that a beat was made one way and the other way is "different"... if the beat was perfected on the MPC then any change will be "worse."

this is all very interesting
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #41
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🎧 15 years
I've used Logic, protools and the MPC as my sequencer over the the years.

I started my career sequencing on on MPC 3000, and now I'm back on the 3000, having used Logic and Protools extensively over the years. I've used all three on projects with high profile artists ranging from Jim Jones to Pink. I know the feel of all three sequencers, and I ultimately prefer the MPC 3000 in my current work.

I'm always open to learning new stuff. But the problem with your argument is that you haven't backed anything that you are saying, beyond myth and internet bluster


You claim that the MPC is influenced by Logic's tempo when slaved using MTC.

This is impossible since MTC is simply a midi format SMPTE conversion that carries no Tempo information.
Sync up the two sequencers, with MTC and the MPC as slave. You'll see that if you change the tempo in Logic, there will be no change in the MPC's tempo.

Im trying hard to be polite, but what you are saying makes no sense at all.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #42
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 25ghosts ➡️
It aint about DOUBT. It is about a FACT. Doubting means that you have NOT done the experiment yourself


Set the MPC to output Midi Clock and NOT MTC.

Then set Logic as SLAVE. Play the MPC - NOW WATCH Logic's TEMPO.

If you cant see it vary then I will make a video showing it.....

I suggest you try to experiment with this.
I did this about ten or eleven years ago when I was first trying to decide how to sync my MPC and Logic. Logic was at version 3.5 or 4 at that time.

You are correct, the tempo will vary. This is caused by Logic's inability to correctly track the incoming information. This was a very well known fact when i was starting out.

As I stated before. It is inadvisable to slave a software sequencer to a hardware one for that reason.

I do not know of any pro that does it that way around.

But each to his/her own
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #43
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpel ➡️
I've used Logic, protools and the MPC as my sequencer over the the years.

I started my career sequencing on on MPC 3000, and now I'm back on the 3000, having used Logic and Protools extensively over the years. I've used all three on projects with high profile artists ranging from Jim Jones to Pink. I know the feel of all three sequencers, and I ultimately prefer the MPC 3000 in my current work.
What does above have to do with all of this... You could have composed the Anthem of God as he throws the Morning Light out of heaven but that is stuff for another thread.

Quote:
I'm always open to learning new stuff. But the problem with your argument is that you haven't backed anything that you are saying, beyond myth and internet bluster
You need to take the information that your eyes READ and translate them into meaning inside that gray mass of yours, sitting right behind the eyeballs.
Because YOU aint listening to me. All my statements come from experiments that I have conducted by myself.

Quote:
You claim that the MPC is influenced by Logic's tempo when slaved using MTC.
No, by the MTC. If someone hit you with a speed stick 25 times per seconds on your head, it would be a little hard to keep your own timings.

Quote:
This is impossible since MTC is simply a midi format SMPTE conversion that carries no Tempo information.
Sync up the two sequencers, with MTC and the MPC as slave. You'll see that if you change the tempo in Logic, there will be no change in the MPC's tempo.
You simply wont understand. Walk the darkness if you want. Why would I write all this if they werent my findings.
Do you think that I am going through such lengths to obtain the timing of the MOC if I could simply hook it up to the DAW's MPC...
You have, very obviously, NOT conducted the experiments that I am talking about. Otherwise you would NEVER write what you do...

my findings dont make your songs or beat BAD. Neither do they accuse Logic of having BAD timing. They simply imply that the MPC timing and what it has become known for, gets lost when SYNCED

Quote:
Im trying hard to be polite, but what you are saying makes no sense at all.
Dude, you ARE already being impolite - You accuse me of spreading myth and Internet Bluster although I have done the tests. While you have done NOTHING.

I was merely trying to help here. Truth is ALWAYS inconvenient.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #44
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpel ➡️
I did this about ten or eleven years ago when I was first trying to decide how to sync my MPC and Logic. Logic was at version 3.5 or 4 at that time.

You are correct, the tempo will vary. This is caused by Logic's inability to correctly track the incoming information. snip
I have only seen that in the case of the MPC. And have you ever, for a fact, heard from emagic or apple that logic is unable to correctly track incoming information. I have not, although that does not mean that it aint true.

But we dont wanna spread myths here - do we
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #45
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11413 ➡️
this is very interesting...

so can you make protools midi tracks *feel* like an MPC by just syncing Protools to the MPC's MIDI clock?

a lot of ppl complain that MPC tracks never have the same feel when played back from protools..
If you just transfer the midi files from the mpc to PT the feel will be different.


Quote:
so can you make protools midi tracks *feel* like an MPC by just syncing Protools to the MPC's MIDI clock?
I have not tried that. But it would make an interesting experiment.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #46
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🎧 10 years
Fact about recording the MPC that is set to loop 4 bars, with MTC

1) Slave the MPC to PT and record 120bars

After 100 bars - the bassdrum ONE will appear i.e exactly on Bar 100

1) Slave PT to MPC and record 120bars

After 100 bars - the bassdrum ONE will NOT appear i.e exactly on Bar 100 it will be late.


Compare the two files - watch and learn


There are other problems if you want to be able to use PT's BarsNBeats Timeline Grid.
The MPC which is Master would need to act as WC Master and Positional Master.

They way I do it:

The MPC sends out SMPTE to a CLAB TimMachine acts as WC Master in our studio. The Time Machine adapts the SMPTE coming from the MPC - it then generates a WordClock (WC) and MTC based upon the incoming SMPTE from the MPC.

Now the timeline in PT is also synced with the MPC.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #47
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpel ➡️
Icut to the chase

I do not know of any pro that does it that way around.
Now you do heh
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #48
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 25ghosts ➡️
I have only seen that in the case of the MPC. And have you ever, for a fact, heard from emagic or apple that logic is unable to correctly track incoming information. I have not, although that does not mean that it aint true.

But we dont wanna spread myths here - do we
Yes, my information came from emagic, while I was confirming the best way to synchronise Logic with my mpc.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #49
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 25ghosts ➡️
Now you do heh
I doubt that very much somehow.



All these internet insults and all your experimentation.
In the time that I've been away from this thread,I've confirmed another placement with my publisher.

What a waste of time you are.

Move on, you're helping nobody here with your silly experiments.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #50
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpel ➡️
Yes, my information came from emagic, while I was confirming the best way to synchronise Logic with my mpc.
With all due respect. I doubt that very much.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #51
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpel ➡️
I doubt that very much somehow.



All these internet insults and all your experimentation.
In the time that I've been away from this thread,I've confirmed another placement with my publisher.

What a waste of time you are.

Move on, you're helping nobody here with your silly experiments.
Wow Rumpel, thanks a lot for that man. And thank you for demonstrating why people thought the world was flat for a few centuries too long.

Guess it aint the weight of your brains that caused your pes planus
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #52
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🎧 15 years
Yes. They told me that Logic is the preferred master. But that's your prerogative.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #53
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpel ➡️
Yes. They told me that Logic is the preferred master. But that's your prerogative.
Why is it my prerogative??? Man, did you work with Bobby Brown too....

No it was that I doubted that emgic ever told you that logic's transport was faulty. You aint listening again, rumpel. But with the arrogance you've just portrayed in former post, it seems that you are the kind of person who only listens to himself.

Let us quit this here, now. You know my opinion and I know yours. Back on Topic
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #54
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 25ghosts ➡️
Wow Rumpel, thanks a lot for that man. And thank you for demonstrating why people thought the world was flat for a few centuries too long.

Guess it aint the weight of your brains that caused your pes planus
All this from somebody who sits in a cave somewhere conducting experiments.
The unverified results of which he/she spends all day on the internet regurgitating on to an unwilling and bemused audience.tutt
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #55
11413
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by 25ghosts ➡️
Wow Rumpel, thanks a lot for that man. And thank you for demonstrating why people thought the world was flat for a few centuries too long.
now all we have to do is dispel the myths of Peak Oil, Global Warming, Oil Speculation, 9/11, the Free Market, the "Federal" Reserve, Credit Default Swaps, Derivatives, the Chicago School, the Austrian School, von Hayek, Milton Friedman, Keynes, the TARP, TARP 2... heh
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #56
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🎧 15 years
Rumpel you are 100% wrong.tutt
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #57
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🎧 15 years
25ghosts it will cange the feel of the MPC I done this so many times. Just like you said put the swing at 60% it will happen all the time.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #58
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 25ghosts ➡️
True, PT WONT loop if the MPC is master. PT will continue it's timeline progression while the MPC loops. I actually like that "Feature" as my beat will often loop after 4 bars but my arrangement/song will NOT.
A little disapointing since I´ve been talking since the first post that "loop recording" was my main problem. My english must be so bad...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TitaniumG ➡️
25ghosts yes you can put protools in MTC, MC mode but protools can not LOOP while the MPC is the master or slave with out problems. Say you have a 4 bar loop it will not play the first bar but start playing on bar 2 to 4.
Well this is what I´ve been talking about all the time. I´ve tryed all the setups, no one can loop in sync.

Well despite loop recording (I give up of trying this)... When I slave PT with MTC, PT follows the MPC playback but with a noticiable delay of like 1/8 bar. Is there any setting to compensate this ? I´ve tryed the MTC Reader Offset but makes no difference.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanjoloco ➡️
A little disapointing since I´ve been talking since the first post that "loop recording" was my main problem. My english must be so bad...



Well this is what I´ve been talking about all the time. I´ve tryed all the setups, no one can loop in sync.

Well despite loop recording (I give up of trying this)... When I slave PT with MTC, PT follows the MPC playback but with a noticiable delay of like 1/8 bar. Is there any setting to compensate this ? I´ve tryed the MTC Reader Offset but makes no difference.
This was you first post

Quote:
I´m trying to make a setup for my MPC2500/Pro-tools to work together but I´m getting crazy with that... just don´t works good.
I´m not talking about tracking MPC beats into pro-tools, that´s not the point. The point is I want to use the MPC really synched with pro-tools, so I can playback instrument tracks in pro-tools while I make the beats on the MPC and vice versa. Anyone here using MPC2500 synched with Pro-Tools ? Or yall guys just do everything on the MPC and track into pro-tools after the beat is finished ?
Please help me.
Your first post said nothing about Loop-Recording.
You can however, have the MPC Loop if it is being slaved to PT. But you cant loop PT if it is being slaved to the MPC.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #60
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitaniumG ➡️
Rumpel you are 100% wrong.tutt
Naaaaa, he just cant tell the difference.
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