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limiting the Drum Buss ???
Old 2nd February 2009
  #1
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Alxi's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
limiting the Drum Buss ???

Hi all

Lately i've been doing a lot of experimentation. Specialy in regards to the 2 bus compression. The more i experiment with it the the less i feel it is for me. I often feel that i'm fighting against the compressor while mixing. Instruments are harder to place in the front to back image and i'm always struggling with the vox, They're always in front... too much ( but that's an other story )

So here's my question.

For all you guys who aren't working with Master Bus Compression, do you usually apply soft limiting to the drum bus. Like 2-3 db of GR to contain the highest peaks. They often cut trought just a bit too much for my liking.

Please, i'm not looking for a ''do whatever the song needs'' answer. I know that but i would like to know if it's common practice among any of you all ?

Thanks

-Alxi-
Old 2nd February 2009
  #2
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Charlie-O's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Lately Ive tried to just keep it under control with gain staging. Most of the time this worx, every now and again, I apply the Stillwell Event Horizon. Theres almost always side compression going on though, just to make these bang that much harder. More often than not Ive got things under control with Eq, bringing down some overtones, harmonics etc, witch gets me were I want to be. If Im on the SSL, well thats a another story. I can shine eq things alot more, without worries. Not compression on the bus, but more on a per channel basis, the SSL channel compressors tend to give more than they take away. Though things are getting better with Logics compressor, and Stillwells Rocket.


Peace,
Charlie-O
Old 2nd February 2009
  #3
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staudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I don't mix into stereo bus compression but when I'm done with a mix I sometimes add a little at the end for the glue thing. I have found that starting a mix with the compressor on just messes me up, I like it as a last touch/flavor enhancer.

I sometimes will compress or limit drum stems/busses depending on what I want to hear, but I don't do anything just because, or automatically.

Drums that stick out too much might just be too loud, or they might benefit from reduced compression of the individual tracks, or they might like buss compression, or buss limiting, or etc. Just remember that drum transients can get reduced significantly in mastering so you might find that after mastering your drums sound different than they did in the mix (hopefully for the better!)

The best thing is to experiment and see if you like the results.

Good luck.
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #4
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Alxi's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Thanks guys .. good advices

I wasn't even thinking about the effect of mastering yet... definately something to keep in mind

-Alxi-
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #5
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Instead of using one buss for every element in the entire song, have you thought about making 3 or 4 separate compression busses for your separate rhythm groups? You'll have a lot less of one element effecting the entire compression scheme. For ex. you might compress bass and kick in one buss. Acoustics in another buss. Percussion kit in another buss. Synth or fx in another buss. In a way it's like multiband compression but not divided by frequency, it' divided by rhythm groups. I find lots of advantages to this technique, as sometimes certain compressors are better depending on the material, also att/rel/thresh can be set depending on particular groups, not on the entire song.
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #6
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bgrotto's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke ➑️
Instead of using one buss for every element in the entire song, have you thought about making 3 or 4 separate compression busses for your separate rhythm groups? You'll have a lot less of one element effecting the entire compression scheme. For ex. you might compress bass and kick in one buss. Acoustics in another buss. Percussion kit in another buss. Synth or fx in another buss. In a way it's like multiband compression but not divided by frequency, it' divided by rhythm groups. I find lots of advantages to this technique, as sometimes certain compressors are better depending on the material, also att/rel/thresh can be set depending on particular groups, not on the entire song.
This is what Michael Brauer does, and it's tough to argue with his results...listen to some of his work and check out his homepage (or here on GS in the interviews section) for detailed descriptions of his setup and approach!

(did I mention I'm a bit of a superfan?heh)
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #7
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Alxi's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Yhea i'm aware of his technics. I'm a big Coldplay fan.

Maybe i should try it. I work ITB though and to fully emulate his technics you need to be OTB i think but i guess i could still try it.

Thanks for the advice

-Alxi-
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #8
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alxi ➑️
Yhea i'm aware of his technics. I'm a big Coldplay fan.

Maybe i should try it. I work ITB though and to fully emulate his technics you need to be OTB i think but i guess i could still try it.

Thanks for the advice

-Alxi-

<<---- I agree with all you guys said. I normally compress in the mix seperately for the drums bass, and melody. When i'm mastering i only add compression very slightly because the compression does change a lot of sounds. Just like Alxi i was stuck with this compression thing for a few months, but experimenting i found that doing it in a buss with the drums and not on a master track, it was a lot easier to handle and i was able to get the sounds that i wanted out of each rhymth.

-Jay_S
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #9
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alxi ➑️
Yhea i'm aware of his technics. I'm a big Coldplay fan.

Maybe i should try it. I work ITB though and to fully emulate his technics you need to be OTB i think but i guess i could still try it.

Thanks for the advice

-Alxi-
Why do you need to be OTB to use more than one compression buss?

If you want an analogue sound/feel/color that's one thing, but this is about technique, not subjective quality. The same settings and concept are applicable whether ITB or OTB. Try it and make it work for yourself.

I now remember reading about "Brauerizing", but it's really an intuitive thing to do. I can't say that anyone person came up with this concept (he just coined it). It's really a natural thing to try. Why smash everything under one compressor? It doesn't even make sense to me, unless you actually WANT compression as a buss effect over an entire song.
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #10
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Alxi's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Thanks for chimming in Jay. I will be doing some experimentation in the next few days.. i have an instrumental to mix.. and no dead line so it's the perfect candidate for this.

Smoke, i know i don't need to work OTB to have multiple buses and compressors. I just remember reading on MB's web page that HIS technic wouldn't probably work ITB but it's sure not gonna stop me from trying I'm not nesserelky going for the analogue feel. I just want to find a technique that will get me where i wanna go.

-Alxi-
Old 3rd February 2009
  #11
Gear Head
 
Donovan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alxi ➑️
Hi all

Lately i've been doing a lot of experimentation. Specialy in regards to the 2 bus compression. The more i experiment with it the the less i feel it is for me. I often feel that i'm fighting against the compressor while mixing. Instruments are harder to place in the front to back image and i'm always struggling with the vox, They're always in front... too much ( but that's an other story )

So here's my question.

For all you guys who aren't working with Master Bus Compression, do you usually apply soft limiting to the drum bus. Like 2-3 db of GR to contain the highest peaks. They often cut trought just a bit too much for my liking.

Please, i'm not looking for a ''do whatever the song needs'' answer. I know that but i would like to know if it's common practice among any of you all ?

Thanks

-Alxi-
I have separate stereo buses setup for a lot of the different types of drums..

Kick | Hi Hat | Snare | Percussion | Crash

Then all of those (except for the kick) are then put on another stereo bus.

The kick is totally independent so it'll punch through and be a whole different animal that i tame to my liking throughout the mixing process (I saw Timbaland work in a similar fashion).

Once I've already created a kick, i almost never compress it when it's in a song.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #12
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Alxi's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donovan ➑️

The kick is totally independent so it'll punch through and be a whole different animal that i tame to my liking throughout the mixing process (I saw Timbaland work in a similar fashion).
That's something i would definitely have to try ( and not because of Timbaland )

The mixing process has often been move foward tree steps and then backward two step for me. The moving back part is 9/10 because the balance of the kick has change and that i have to fix it... but i guess if i threat it seperatly it could be alot easier

A lot of Good tips so far in this thread...
keep 'em coming

-Alxi-
Old 3rd February 2009
  #13
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alxi ➑️
Hi all

Lately i've been doing a lot of experimentation. Specialy in regards to the 2 bus compression. The more i experiment with it the the less i feel it is for me. I often feel that i'm fighting against the compressor while mixing. Instruments are harder to place in the front to back image and i'm always struggling with the vox, They're always in front... too much ( but that's an other story )

So here's my question.

For all you guys who aren't working with Master Bus Compression, do you usually apply soft limiting to the drum bus. Like 2-3 db of GR to contain the highest peaks. They often cut trought just a bit too much for my liking.

Please, i'm not looking for a ''do whatever the song needs'' answer. I know that but i would like to know if it's common practice among any of you all ?

Thanks

-Alxi-

When mixing drums I do a lot of splitting and group compression, each drum element usually getting split twice and having its own group bus, example: Kick bus, snare bus, etc. Then each of those groups getting bussed into a main drum & percussion bus. Each bus will have a compressor doing about 2-3 dbs of reduction. If the song calls for it I may even add what I call a "Tramp bus" which is where I will send the audio from the drum & percussion bus and beat the heck out of it with a very aggressive compressor to add some "attitude". No hard compression or limiting is being done on anything besides some of the splits and the Tramp bus.

Anything you can probably come up with as far as mixing goes is probably already a common practice amoungst some group of mixers, AFAIK there haven't been any new tricks going around in a long ass time, at least not around my neck of the woods.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #14
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay-J Music ➑️
When i'm mastering i only add compression very slightly because the compression does change a lot of sounds.
That's 1 of the many reasons why some mixing engineers like myself like to use mix bus compression; so they can control how 2 bus compression will shape the sound of the record before it goes off for mastering. Mixing into a compressor will give you different results than just simply adding a compressor after the fact would do. Those who thoroughly understand the benefits of mixing into a compressor understand why they are doing it and know what they are trying to achieve, thus they are able to control the results they get with using it. It's that simple. Mixing that way is not for everyone.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #15
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alxi ➑️
Thanks for chimming in Jay. I will be doing some experimentation in the next few days.. i have an instrumental to mix.. and no dead line so it's the perfect candidate for this.

Smoke, i know i don't need to work OTB to have multiple buses and compressors. I just remember reading on MB's web page that HIS technic wouldn't probably work ITB but it's sure not gonna stop me from trying I'm not nesserelky going for the analogue feel. I just want to find a technique that will get me where i wanna go.

-Alxi-
that comment was made awhile ago. I'm sure it's getting easier and easier to do ITB. But to start off, I suggest you go outside of PT and use hardware for the 4 sub stereos.

michael
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #16
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Alxi's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Multi bus with multi comp seems to be the way most of you guys work like Petty Cash is explainning.

I use to Bus all my Drums to 1 bus + send all drums to a parralel bus for heavy compression. I would compres and eq also on individual tracks. I would have a buss for the instruments ( keys and strings ) 1 for samples and 2 or 3 bus for the Vox ( Lead, Back and chorus ) + a couple of buses for Verb , delay, Modulation and sometimes Distortion.

Thanks for the tip Michael but bussing out of the DAW is not possible right now and that would requirer an investment i'm curently not able to make.

So far i have tried to Bus kick and bass on 1 buss, snare and hats on 1 bus, keys and strings on another bus ( with a a few mults ) and it like it a lot so far. It took me like two hours to get where i'd usually be after 4 hours and all that without master bus compression


-Alxi-
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