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Funky Drummer -- was the hi-hat overdubbed?
Old 30th August 2019
  #1
Funky Drummer -- was the hi-hat overdubbed?

a.) It sure sounds to me like it was, check from 2:00 on in the song:



b.) The way Clyde demos the groove in this video, and re-listening to the track aftewards (I've watched both a bunch of times...), I think I understand some about why folks who try to play this now don't get the right "feel":



Basically, it comes down to the hi-hat. I've been working on my own funk drumming since I got a kit again (after a 13 year hiatus...) about six months ago. The idea is to put the "feel" into the hi-hat pattern, not just swing but playing patterns and grooves and other things that aren't really expressible in notation. Not that they couldn't be notated, but the notation won't capture all the bits correctly. Jabo also did this, check out the pattern he plays for "Super Bad" on the ride (and "Sex Machine", for that matter):

(starts around 1:20, he plays the pattern on the bell of the ride at about 3:19)

The way people try to teach these beats, they want to play just 16ths, or 8ths, or some ostinatos mixed in, but it's more than that... The patterns are little songs in themselves, and all the other drums fall in around them.

Anyways, as I've tried to do this all this stuff is much easier to play. My consistency sucks, and sustaining the right "feel' with this is challenging in its own ways, but it's nothing like the backwards jedi mind trick of trying to be "funky" with the rest of yourself while playing straight 16ths. That's a different skill, and cool in its own way, but IMO that is _not_ the funk.


EDIT: All of these sound way better when they cut to the room mics... For funk, recording the kit as an "instrument" as opposed to a bunch of different sound sources is key IMO.


EDIT 2: Jabo refs Bobby Blue Bland "Turn On Your Lovelight" in the vid; I think this way of approaching the hats/ride makes sense in context with the R&B and Jazz that came before it, and you can hear those elements in these tracks. Doing patterns like that definitely reminds me of how Jazz drummers would approach this ('cause it's not fun to just play triplets for the whole tune...):

Old 1st September 2019
  #2
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🎧 15 years
I’m not sure what the studio arrangement was, but JB often had two drummers on gigs. Other bands of the era, including the funk brothers, utilitised two drummers or two drum parts on recordings.

That being said, Funky Drummer sounds like one drummer to me. What makes you think it’s not?
Old 1st September 2019
  #3
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🎧 15 years
There's nothing there to make me think "overdub".
Old 1st September 2019 | Show parent
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by nd33 ➑️
I’m not sure what the studio arrangement was, but JB often had two drummers on gigs. Other bands of the era, including the funk brothers, utilitised two drummers or two drum parts on recordings.

That being said, Funky Drummer sounds like one drummer to me. What makes you think it’s not?
Listen starting at 2:00 - 3:30 or so... The cymbals tick on over the top of open hi-hats, it goes on through drum fills... Starting at about that point, Clyde adds an open hi-hat to his pattern that you can hear -- Clyde's hat doesn't sound like the one that's playing the 16ths either. Plus, the way Clyde demos the beat above, he doesn't play it like that. That, to me, is the big part. The snare is exactly right, the "feel" is exactly right, and he's not playing 16ths. Also, Clyde's hat is about in the middle of the stereo field, and the one playing 16ths is more on the left.

EDIT: I also hear it during parts that would be played on the snare with two hands, but that's only during fills (he does some cool stuff on the snare, esp. during the breaks, with one hand too). There's a hit in the intro where the ride, snare, and the closed hi-hat hit at the same time... I counted it out, it comes around beat 4 of measure 3 going into measure 4, for reference.

Last edited by poserp; 1st September 2019 at 11:40 PM..
Old 1st September 2019
  #5
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mitgong's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
In a word, no.
Old 1st September 2019 | Show parent
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by creegstor ➑️
There's nothing there to make me think "overdub".
I think it might have been played at the same time, but not by Clyde. There's the tambourine version too, which would indicate that there were some overdubs done during the session. I mean, I've tried this a bunch of times, taking breaks for days/weeks between listens to see if it's just a thing my brain is doing (I still won't rule that out), but at this point I lean fairly heavily on it being overdubbed or another musician. Again, in part because that's not the way Clyde seems to play it. He lays out "Cold Sweat" pretty much note-perfect in that video, I don't think he'd suddenly try to _not_ play the 16ths for some reason when he's demoing it but get all the other parts right. Plus the grove on that one is pretty "straight", so 16ths fit right in. One thing that bothers me a bit though is I can't hear his hi-hat other than when it's open in the recording... So, conundrum.

Last edited by poserp; 2nd September 2019 at 12:06 AM..
Old 2nd September 2019 | Show parent
  #7
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by poserp ➑️
I think it might have been played at the same time, but not by Clyde. There's the tambourine version too, which would indicate that there were some overdubs done during the session. I mean, I've tried this a bunch of times, taking breaks for days/weeks between listens to see if it's just a thing my brain is doing (I still won't rule that out), but at this point I lean fairly heavily on it being overdubbed or another musician. Again, in part because that's not the way Clyde seems to play it. He lays out "Cold Sweat" pretty much note-perfect in that video, I don't think he'd suddenly try to _not_ play the 16ths for some reason when he's demoing it but get all the other parts right. Plus the grove on that one is pretty "straight", so 16ths fit right in. One thing that bothers me a bit though is I can't hear his hi-hat other than when it's open in the recording... So, conundrum.
I don't know any musician that plays a song exactly like they did 10/20/30 years ago. Here's a clip of him playing FD verse. He's more fluid/dynamic on the hats and at times he does skip a 16th. But he's hitting others.

It's clearly all live on the record. Not even a question.

Old 2nd September 2019
  #8
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🎧 10 years
hell yes, they addeded the hat's with a bounce. they could reuse the best mic and preamp, or at least another guy playing when they captured everything. Definatly another "track" Hats + drums
Old 2nd September 2019 | Show parent
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by creegstor ➑️
I don't know any musician that plays a song exactly like they did 10/20/30 years ago. Here's a clip of him playing FD verse. He's more fluid/dynamic on the hats and at times he does skip a 16th. But he's hitting others.

It's clearly all live on the record. Not even a question.

Yeah, that's exactly how he plays it in the first vid I posted too. He's consistent across time, for funk like that to work it's important to have the "pattern" down cold. They talk about this, like when Jabo says "I played my pattern" or "you know how people fool around with patterns in the studio", then demonstrates how his patterns fit together for "Super Bad", both for the bass and for James' dance moves (which inspired the pattern). "Cold Sweat" is the same way, it relies on getting pretty much 90% of it right every repetition of the pattern. Now, with the Funky Drummer break, that's a bit different 'cause at that point he was embellishing and stuff, so I get that he doesn't have to play it down every time the same way. Nevertheless, I've never seen him play the 16ths the way they are on the record. IIRC there are some live videos of them playing, although due to the popularity of the song at the time I don't think it made their live sets. And, the way he plays it your ear might imply 16ths where he isn't hitting them, but to my ears on the record a.) I clearly hear the 16ths, and b.) they neither sound like what he plays nor do they fit in with the fills and such. They "fit" in being in time and locking in with the track, however that went down it's some tight playing. But you can't play a hi-hat open and closed at the same time. Or hit the snare, the hi-hat, and the ride at exactly the same time either.

EDIT: To be clear, they recorded pretty much all of the track together live in the studio, I definitely agree with that. But the tambourine was at least recorded with some isolation (it doesn't show up at all on the non-tambourine version of the track) if not overdubbed.
Old 2nd September 2019
  #10
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🎧 15 years
I doubt the hat is overdubbed, it’s way too tight with the kick/snare. My guess is kick/snare/hat played by one guy live with the band. Let’s keep in mind that these guys were ****ing good. The reverb on drums is very washy in the background and I think it plays a bit of mind trickery.
Old 2nd September 2019
  #11
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🎧 15 years
At 5:40 when the ride is hit, for example, the hi hat appears to stop. Perhaps there was a second drummer playing the hat and the ride?
If there are two drummers I would think they’d be tracked at the same time, though.

When I saw the JBs live around 15 years ago, one of the drummers generally was playing fills and little extra bits, while the other played the main kick/snare/hat groove.
Old 2nd September 2019 | Show parent
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by nd33 ➑️
At 5:40 when the ride is hit, for example, the hi hat appears to stop. Perhaps there was a second drummer playing the hat and the ride?
I'll have to listen better tomorrow when my ears aren't shot/ I've probably spent a solid two hours today listening, and another hour or so working on the snare thing that he does for the solo section pattern. It's one of those things where my right hand can nail it, but the left has a harder time. I think this is 'cause the way he does the snare and "ghost" notes evolved from how jazz drummers do a basic "swing" on the ride -- flag, tap, pull -- as one smooth motion, so the hand that does this normally (for me my right hand) already has that down, but to do it with the left hand is more difficult for me. One I've got all this together I'll do a video, I hate just talking about it 'cause it's easier to show it, but I still suck and I want to demo it "clean".
Old 2nd September 2019 | Show parent
  #13
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by poserp ➑️
But you can't play a hi-hat open and closed at the same time. Or hit the snare, the hi-hat, and the ride at exactly the same time either.
Can you point out where you hear this? Give timestamps!
Old 2nd September 2019 | Show parent
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by creegstor ➑️
Can you point out where you hear this? Give timestamps!
I gave a count, the first audible example (to me, anyways) happens at the end of "4" in the third measure, or right on the "1" of the fourth measure. That happens between seconds 5 and 6. Once he adds in the open hi-hat to his pattern from 2:00 on, I hear many examples that are too numerous to mention, basically the first thirty seconds of Maceo's solo (abt 2:00 to 2:30) -- that whole section, pretty much every open->closed hat has at least one or two "ticks" of a closed hat over the top. He goes into the change, and all through the fill heading into the change from 3:00 to 3:12 I hear various parts that sound like two-handed snare bits (I could be wrong, of course, Clyde is pretty awesome with one-handed snare fills like that, but there are a couple of spots that sound to me like he used two hands, I haven't broken down the fill all the way yet so I don't have exact time stamps). Once we come out of the change, that pattern uses more open->closed hi-hat and to my ears I hear lots of "ticks" on a closed hat over the top of his pattern when his hat is open, listen between 3:15 - 3:30, but it extends beyond that too.

EDIT: Also, I listen on both headphones and various kinds of speakers (including my studio monitors) -- for me, it's easier to hear the separation on speakers than headphones.

EDIT2: One semi-unrelated thing -- when we cut to Clyde's solo sections, the drums seem to come up in the mix. That could be a compressor, or perhaps there's at least one mic on his drums, or he just plays louder (his dynamics are, of course, excellent as well). The reverb comes up too, so I kinda lean towards compression (as that would increase the room volume as well as bringing up Clyde's drums) but I don't know enough about recording techniques and tools at the time to really tell. My understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) is Brown had a studio that he either built or used extensively, so it wouldn't surprise me if he had more than average recording equipment available.

EDIT3: And... I think he likes to do his hi-hat so it's not "closed" super-tight when he closes it. In the videos I've seen of him, his hat has more "body" to it, more of a "chh" sound than a "tick", so to speak. That may be preference thing, or just the way the kits are set up for those vids, but I see it enough that I wonder if that was his preference. And, further, he tends to hit more with the body of the stick than the tip, which would also accent the "chh" quality.

Last edited by poserp; 2nd September 2019 at 06:43 PM..
Old 2nd September 2019
  #15
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I think the long reverb kind of blurs the distinction between what is the tail of the snare and the tail of the hats. It’s making the open hat seem longer than it actually is.

Someone needs to locate the multitrack to solve this mystery...
Old 2nd September 2019 | Show parent
  #16
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by poserp ➑️
I gave a count, the first audible example (to me, anyways) happens at the end of "4" in the third measure, or right on the "1" of the fourth measure. That happens between seconds 5 and 6. Once he adds in the open hi-hat to his pattern from 2:00 on, I hear many examples that are too numerous to mention, basically the first thirty seconds of Maceo's solo (abt 2:00 to 2:30) -- that whole section, pretty much every open->closed hat has at least one or two "ticks" of a closed hat over the top. He goes into the change, and all through the fill heading into the change from 3:00 to 3:12 I hear various parts that sound like two-handed snare bits (I could be wrong, of course, Clyde is pretty awesome with one-handed snare fills like that, but there are a couple of spots that sound to me like he used two hands, I haven't broken down the fill all the way yet so I don't have exact time stamps). Once we come out of the change, that pattern uses more open->closed hi-hat and to my ears I hear lots of "ticks" on a closed hat over the top of his pattern when his hat is open, listen between 3:15 - 3:30, but it extends beyond that too.

EDIT: Also, I listen on both headphones and various kinds of speakers (including my studio monitors) -- for me, it's easier to hear the separation on speakers than headphones.

EDIT2: One semi-unrelated thing -- when we cut to Clyde's solo sections, the drums seem to come up in the mix. That could be a compressor, or perhaps there's at least one mic on his drums, or he just plays louder (his dynamics are, of course, excellent as well). The reverb comes up too, so I kinda lean towards compression (as that would increase the room volume as well as bringing up Clyde's drums) but I don't know enough about recording techniques and tools at the time to really tell. My understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) is Brown had a studio that he either built or used extensively, so it wouldn't surprise me if he had more than average recording equipment available.

EDIT3: And... I think he likes to do his hi-hat so it's not "closed" super-tight when he closes it. In the videos I've seen of him, his hat has more "body" to it, more of a "chh" sound than a "tick", so to speak. That may be preference thing, or just the way the kits are set up for those vids, but I see it enough that I wonder if that was his preference. And, further, he tends to hit more with the body of the stick than the tip, which would also accent the "chh" quality.
You've got to understand he was likely playing exactly as instructed by Brown because that's how Brown worked, orchestrating down to minute detail. How he plays now is going to be more relaxed.

I think the "flams" are simply hearing a pedal close with a stick tip hit so close that it's confusing your ear. Stubblefield was able to do stuff hardly anyone else has been able to do (at that level anyway). The guy was superhuman.

The rides are between hat hits. Nothing he couldn't do in his sleep.

There is nothing on this recording that sounds impossible... for him. For many drummers? Yes absolutely.
Old 2nd September 2019
  #17
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I'm not saying it could not be done. It's a feel & Sound thing to me. The high hat player is playing in circles to give it a strong feel. The drums have a different feel to them. Different micing, different player.
Old 2nd September 2019 | Show parent
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by creegstor ➑️
The rides are between hat hits. Nothing he couldn't do in his sleep.

There is nothing on this recording that sounds impossible... for him. For many drummers? Yes absolutely.
Well, to me in that intro bit especially it sounds like the hat, ride, and snare hit all at the same time. And, yes, he can do some cool stuff, but I think more of it has to do with note choice and it's more "linear" than a lot of people think. Not entirely, but that linearity IMO is what makes these both a.) groove and b.) playable. Same goes, for instance, with "Amen Brother" or "Think (About It)" and similar drum grooves from around that time. Anyways, I think he's great, but I don't think you can't learn how to do that in a reasonable amount of time, in part because if you jettison the 16ths throughout (and instead play the patterns he's playing in the other videos), the whole thing is somewhat easier to play. Actually, the thing _most_ versions get wrong is the interplay between the kick and the snare; instead of focusing on the hats, I think it's better to start there and work outwards 'cause a good portion of the "funk" comes from his syncopation with those parts. Of the dozen or more videos I've watched of other drummers trying this, none play the pattern he plays (and demonstrates in the Drummer World video) on the snare and kick, they play more of the things that I've always played with this beat and didn't know were "wrong" until I saw him do it. And, that's one of the main things that messes up the funk, the other being (IMO) trying to do the strict 16ths instead of his patterns on the hat. Try playing "Cold Sweat" correctly with the straight 8th's/16th's approach... Guaranteed not to funk.
Old 2nd June 2020
  #19
Didn't realize the whole video "Soul of the Funky Drummers" was on YT. 1:09:40. I rest my case, your honor.



EDIT: I didn't realize it because this version, at least, was posted three months after my last comment. Thank you, universe, maybe we can get the funk right now.

EDIT2: What it sounds like when a beginner drummer (a bit over a year) tries to play the notes that Clyde plays in the videos:



Once I clean up my playing, I'll do the full song. Anyways... This isn't some impossible beat to play, you just need two drummers and/or an overdub.

Last edited by poserp; 3rd June 2020 at 10:07 AM..
Old 16th June 2020
  #20
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No, it just takes practice. Gearslutz Dylan Wissing plays it perfectly and has done for Eminem.
This young guy on You Tube nails it too:

Old 16th June 2020 | Show parent
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_G ➑️
No, it just takes practice. Gearslutz Dylan Wissing plays it perfectly and has done for Eminem.
This young guy on You Tube nails it too:

Oh yeah he definitely has it. Makes me want to get to sampling some of that.
Old 29th June 2020 | Show parent
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_G ➑️
No, it just takes practice. Gearslutz Dylan Wissing plays it perfectly and has done for Eminem.
This young guy on You Tube nails it too:


This is what's wrong with his pattern:

1.) it's too "flat". This is what happens when you try to play the 16ths and Clyde's pattern at the same time, and pretty much every single drummer who I've heard play it does it this way, and it's wrong. It's not even all that funky. Here's the original loop, you hear a very distinct "bounce" to the way Clyde plays it. It's not "swing", but it's a similar concept in that some snare hits land closer to each other in time than others, creating an iconic "bounce" or "lilt" in the pattern that is otherwise missing. The reason it's not "swing" is because it doesn't apply equally across the measure to, say, the 16ths or 8ths. That's what throws people off, because then they try to swing it (if they try to swing it, most people just play it stiff like this guy) and that kills the unique pattern that's actually there in the recording:




2.) The kick and snare pattern are all wrong. He has kicks happening when there should be snare notes, his hi-hat opening/closing doesn't happen at the right time (and not even the right number of times), and so on. This throws off the syncopation, and makes the whole thing lean too much on the "foot". In the actual loop, the main drum sound defining the loop is the snare, not the hi-hat and not the kick drum.

To get specific, the way the transcriptions have it and the way this guy plays it is like:

kick1--kick2--snare1--[two hi-hat open/close]/[two snare(2,3) ghost notes]-kick3-snare4-kick4/[hihat open/close]--snare5 [repeat]

Clyde's pattern is like

kick1--kick2--snare1--[open hihat]-[close hihat]/snare2--snare3--snare4-snare5/[open hihat]-kick3/[close hihat]--snare6 [repeat]

See the difference? Listen close and you'll hear it too. That second pattern will never work with 16ths on the hat being played by the same drummer. Also, on the snare hits in the middle in Clyde's pattern (snare hits 3,4, and 5) Clyde will sometimes improvise by "ghosting" that snare note _after_ the main hit (so, strike the snare hard and let it bounce fast). He also does throw in a soft kick sometimes under snare number 4, which makes it sound a tad bit more like the transcriptions. All of the other drummers who play it start their "ghost" notes in between the two open hi-hats in the middle and the stick bounces in 16ths. That's _not_ what Clyde does, at all, and it's another bit of his playing that makes the break iconic and gives "flavor" to the measures after the "change" through to the end of the song. His playing is like the drumming analog to Barry Harris' 6th diminished scale, in that there's a symmetry to it that happens when you play it right.

This has nothing to do with Clyde having a different "feel" that nobody else on earth can ever play. It has everything to do, though, with actually playing the right notes at the right time, and the 16ths business totally throws that off. Instead of practicing Clyde's snare stuff, people gloss over that and focus on the 16ths and getting them to fit with the pattern. In reality, Clyde is one of the masters of funk snare drum and he does all sorts of cool syncopated riffs that fall where you're not expecting them. He does that by varying what he's playing on the hi-hat so the whole thing "grooves" in the right way and the "bounce" in his playing stays consistent from measure to measure. Especially right after the change, he's playing around with the whole pattern, doing all sorts of interesting variations and such. Same happens on the outro, when he solos again and changes up the pattern over the last few measures.

Last edited by poserp; 29th June 2020 at 06:01 AM..
Old 29th June 2020 | Show parent
  #23
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by poserp ➑️
This is what's wrong with his pattern:

1.) it's too "flat". This is what happens when you try to play the 16ths and Clyde's pattern at the same time, and pretty much every single drummer who I've heard play it does it this way, and it's wrong. It's not even all that funky. Here's the original loop, you hear a very distinct "bounce" to the way Clyde plays it. It's not "swing", but it's a similar concept in that some snare hits land closer to each other in time than others, creating an iconic "bounce" or "lilt" in the pattern that is otherwise missing. The reason it's not "swing" is because it doesn't apply equally across the measure to, say, the 16ths or 8ths. That's what throws people off, because then they try to swing it (if they try to swing it, most people just play it stiff like this guy) and that kills the unique pattern that's actually there in the recording:




2.) The kick and snare pattern are all wrong. He has kicks happening when there should be snare notes, his hi-hat opening/closing doesn't happen at the right time (and not even the right number of times), and so on. This throws off the syncopation, and makes the whole thing lean too much on the "foot". In the actual loop, the main drum sound defining the loop is the snare, not the hi-hat and not the kick drum.

To get specific, the way the transcriptions have it and the way this guy plays it is like:

kick1--kick2--snare1--[two hi-hat open/close]/[two snare(2,3) ghost notes]-kick3-snare4-kick4/[hihat open/close]--snare5 [repeat]

Clyde's pattern is like

kick1--kick2--snare1--[open hihat]-[close hihat]/snare2--snare3--snare4-snare5/[open hihat]-kick3/[close hihat]--snare6 [repeat]

See the difference? Listen close and you'll hear it too. That second pattern will never work with 16ths on the hat being played by the same drummer. Also, on the snare hits in the middle in Clyde's pattern (snare hits 3,4, and 5) Clyde will sometimes improvise by "ghosting" that snare note _after_ the main hit (so, strike the snare hard and let it bounce fast). He also does throw in a soft kick sometimes under snare number 4, which makes it sound a tad bit more like the transcriptions. All of the other drummers who play it start their "ghost" notes in between the two open hi-hats in the middle and the stick bounces in 16ths. That's _not_ what Clyde does, at all, and it's another bit of his playing that makes the break iconic and gives "flavor" to the measures after the "change" through to the end of the song. His playing is like the drumming analog to Barry Harris' 6th diminished scale, in that there's a symmetry to it that happens when you play it right.

This has nothing to do with Clyde having a different "feel" that nobody else on earth can ever play. It has everything to do, though, with actually playing the right notes at the right time, and the 16ths business totally throws that off. Instead of practicing Clyde's snare stuff, people gloss over that and focus on the 16ths and getting them to fit with the pattern. In reality, Clyde is one of the masters of funk snare drum and he does all sorts of cool syncopated riffs that fall where you're not expecting them. He does that by varying what he's playing on the hi-hat so the whole thing "grooves" in the right way and the "bounce" in his playing stays consistent from measure to measure. Especially right after the change, he's playing around with the whole pattern, doing all sorts of interesting variations and such. Same happens on the outro, when he solos again and changes up the pattern over the last few measures.
1) Yes that's called loose.

2) That's variation.

3) Check @ dylanwissing .

4) https://www.amazon.co.uk/Breakbeat-B...s=books&sr=1-1

That has the pattern in notation, rather than patronising waffle.
Old 29th June 2020 | Show parent
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_G ➑️
1) Yes that's called loose.

2) That's variation.

3) Check @ dylanwissing .

4) https://www.amazon.co.uk/Breakbeat-B...s=books&sr=1-1

That has the pattern in notation, rather than patronising waffle.
1.) No, it's wrong. "Loose" is a dumb term people use when they can't play it right. There's some "space" in the pocket, but messing up the basic pattern isn't the same thing. Clyde's pattern has nothing to do with 16ths, other than you can play 16ths over the top and they compliment each other. Listen to the bass player and what he's doing, as that's where the "pulse" of the whole rhythm section lies (in the way the bass and drums lock together with their patterns).

2.) Again, there's a way to vary while keeping the "outline" right. This guy doesn't do it.

3.) Dylan Wissing plays it wrong too (I've been through his whole tutorial a few times). He does get closer, as he has at least something close to the correct snare pattern, so I'll give him props for that. But then he throws in an extra snare after snare hit 5 so he's basically doing 8ths on the snare through the end of the measure and into the next measure. The hi-hats are also off, but again that's due to playing the 16ths over the top.

4.) That's one of the main sources for the crappy transcription. Then again, you can't really transcribe it the way Clyde plays it because you'd have to use some crazy dotted stuff to get his timing right and the page would look atrocious.

The pattern thing is important, and I use that word on purpose. There are various "patterns" in drumming that derive from African rhythms. Ernie Adams explains it here. Clyde is using patterns like this, although not these particular patterns:



As he says, "a lot of the people who write this music out have no idea about the clave". That goes for a lot of funk drumming in the 60's and 70's that's been transcribed.

Last edited by poserp; 29th June 2020 at 02:32 PM..
Old 29th June 2020 | Show parent
  #25
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by poserp ➑️
1.)
As he says, "a lot of the people who write this music out have no idea about the clave". That goes for a lot of funk drumming in the 60's and 70's that's been transcribed.
Obviously it's a highly individual "feel" thing, but what your saying is mythical bs.
Old 29th June 2020
  #26
Gear Maniac
 
stixman's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Interesting....accusonus regroover could reveal the parts.
Old 29th June 2020 | Show parent
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_G ➑️
Obviously it's a highly individual "feel" thing, but what your saying is mythical bs.
And you know because?

All the primary sources we have available, meaning the people who actually played the parts, point towards it being this way. That's how they do it now. That's how they show they played it then. Frankly I'd rather believe them than someone transcribing from a recording second-hand.
Old 29th June 2020 | Show parent
  #28
Lives for gear
 
Paul_G's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by poserp ➑️
And you know because?

All the primary sources we have available, meaning the people who actually played the parts, point towards it being this way. That's how they do it now. That's how they show they played it then. Frankly I'd rather believe them than someone transcribing from a recording second-hand.
I know because it's just feel and acoustics.
You started this thread thinking the Hi Hat was overdubbed.
Old 29th June 2020
  #29
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
I think he does still think the hi hat was dubbed? he's obviously put some time and thought into it and considering JB was known to use 2 drummers and the vid posted of clyde and jabo playing together from that documentary is it really that much of a crazy idea? I dunno and I personally don't care just thought I'd say that you're (paul) the one who seems to be patronizing in this thread, whether you are right or not. PEACE.
Old 29th June 2020 | Show parent
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_G ➑️
I know because it's just feel and acoustics.
You started this thread thinking the Hi Hat was overdubbed.
Sure, and I've changed my view a bit, I think Jabo probably played along with Clyde live in the studio. They did overdubs on the session, but after seeing the vid of them playing together I see how it could have gone down on the take. Clyde has said in the past that Funky Drummer was a staple of their live shows, I think (and I'll check this) even before it was recorded. So, it seems natural to me that they'd play it together on the recording.

It's not just "feel and acoustics". If so, then people would sample all these other guys doing it rather than paying for Clyde's sample. If I were to use Funky Drummer in a track, that's what I'd do if I had to choose because these guys don't play it right and paying for Clyde's version would be worth it. Having cut up and used breaks and done all sorts of production, I can tell you right now that if you sample these drummers, your bass lines will be different and the whole rhythmic structure of a track will change. If you try to play the "Funky Drummer" bass lines over what these guys are playing, you'll hear that immediately.

I'm learning how to play it because I want to come up with my own stuff that's on the same level of funk, and to get there you have to put in the right kind of work, not just blindly play transcriptions and assume that you'll never "get there" because of "feel and acoustics". It's like when people use the word "warm" to describe a sound -- that's a subjective term that does nothing for figuring out why something sounds like it does. There are technical terms -- frequency, bandwidth, "Q", and so on that are actually useful to describe a sound. So, moving beyond "warm" and "feel" is step one in actually getting stuff to sound good. The language around drumming, alas, has similar cheap words that gloss over the work of figuring out what's actually going on.
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