Quantcast
Outboard Gear While Mixing In The Box? - Gearspace.com
The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Outboard Gear While Mixing In The Box?
Old 4th November 2002
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
RSMITH123's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Question Outboard Gear While Mixing In The Box?

Charles,
Thanks for your time here.

When mixing IN the box, do you incorporate outboard gear such as EQ's, Comp's, Verb's, or do you find everything you need inside? If you stay in, is it because you are satisfied with plugs or is it because you want to avoid the extra conversion?

Thanks.
Robert
Old 4th November 2002
  #2
Gear Maniac
 
RSMITH123's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Actually, It would be great to also hear from you other guys using HD.
Thanks
Old 4th November 2002
  #3
Jax
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Does the DAW you use matter for this topic?
Old 4th November 2002
  #4
FX smörgåsbord user
 
Charles Dye's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The DAW you use shouldn't keep you from posting on any topic this month. Post away Jax!!! (Cute cat.)

This is not a Pro Tools forum this is a forum for anyone who makes records in the digital age to exchange tips + techniques.
Old 4th November 2002
  #5
Jax
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
lol... well yeah, I've been posting away. Look around! Wondering if you would reply to my post in the Art of Pro Tools thread, Charles.
Old 4th November 2002
  #6
FX smörgåsbord user
 
Charles Dye's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I'm not ignoring you at all Jax and I have read your post there. A number of good questions that I would like to take the time to answer fully. I'm trying to respond to as many posts as I have time for today.

I also need to respond to Robert in this thread. I'm enjoying answering your questions so much I'm finding it hard to get offline, but right now I have to get to a session. When I get home tonight, I'll be back online. And I'll answer both Jax + Robert's post first thing. I appreciate your patience.

Thanks.
Old 5th November 2002
  #7
Lives for gear
 
C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
In my way of mixing with Protools outboard is still a key component to make a good sound. I have using more and more plugins but for stuff where sound really matters, my outboard is vital.

here's some of the outboard stuff that gets standard use in mixes : 960 / sys6k / pcm91 / CL1B / 9098 eq's / Aphex expressors and dominators / drawmer 1960's / 9098 comp-lim
Old 5th November 2002
  #8
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
I've mixed the same for years, be it SSL or HD.

I always use outboard(I have a huge collection of junk!!!). I am one of those guys who mixes in HD, but doesn't use plugins(once in a while I do use the Sony EQ or a one of the digi delays). My mix goes through a analog 2 buss comp and EQ. I don't concern myself with the conversion stuff(or try not to that is).

The delay compensation thing is a pain in the ass!!! That's where HD has been great, because i can make copies of as many tracks as I need and shift those without messing with the originals.

It took me about a year or so to master mixing in it(I fought it tooth and nail!!!). But now i feel I got it under control. I am already looking at an alternative for summing my tracks(Boutique Audio/Inward Connections SBM-2). Anything that will help me squeeze out even a little bit of depth and dimension is worth it(for me and my clients).



Quote:
Originally posted by RSMITH123
Actually, It would be great to also hear from you other guys using HD.
Thanks
Old 5th November 2002
  #9
Lives for gear
 
groundcontrol's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
As mentioned in the High End thread about digital (almost vs analog...), for me there are a couple of aspects of signal processing where digital is not cutting it so far (especially plug-ins!). Compression is a BIG one of those, so I strap as many analog compressors as I can put my hands on across my PT tracks. I find compressors are so important not just for controlling the dynamics as for the tonal shaping they provide (even if the meter is barely moving) that using the right one for a given track makes me eq it a lot less.

Also, by using alot of analog stuff that I can push forgivingly, I don't have to strap AC-1's across all my tracks...

Let's not talk about plug-in reverbs...

Thrillfactor, you do know that you can put my name on your will if you don't know what to do with all these racks in case something happened to you...
Old 5th November 2002
  #10
FX smörgåsbord user
 
Charles Dye's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Robert,

Thanks as well. I'm enjoying being Gearslutz guest.

About your questions, when I mix inside PT I don't use any outboard gear. And is it because I'm satisfied with plugs or I want to avoid the extra conversion? I'm satisfied.

How about you. How do you mix? In or out. Or combo.
Old 5th November 2002
  #11
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
You got it Groundcontrol.

Its either you or my mom...and my mom would just"throw the junk out"!!!

So I guess you win by default!!!yuktyy

Quote:
Originally posted by groundcontrol


Thrillfactor, you do know that you can put my name on your will if you don't know what to do with all these racks in case something happened to you...
Old 5th November 2002
  #12
Gear Maniac
 
RSMITH123's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Charles,
So far, It has been all in the box due to a shortage in the rack. Before too long, I will able to solve that.
Old 5th November 2002
  #13
I am struggling with this issue at the moment as I like to hop from song to song with no f**king around...

So here's what I have set up so far.

Drums go thorough SSL Compressor - into - Tube Tech PEC1 valve EQ (for silky top and sub bass warmth)

note - I make copy tracks of kick & snare 7 OH to join the mix - UNCOMPRESSED too

THATS ALL at the moment. ALL the rest is via plug ins (mostly Sony EQ's & Comps)

My analog mix is running through a Cranesong STC-8 compressor

I have the following outboard FX hooked up

TCM3000
Eventide DSP 4000
AMS RMX 16


I must say I am quite happy (perhaps this is because I used some cool pieces to record with - Neve / Fatso etc), HOWEVER I still remain confused... DEEP DOWN I think I feel I would be better off using the 20 or more outboard pieces I have instead of plug ins, but then I would have to change my preferred methodology.. (hoping between several songs, many time during the course of a mix day)

Here's how I may settle...

FULL outboard usage and work through the songs one at a time - then make extensive recall notes.

But that creeps me out a little!

oh well, I will get used to it, after all it's the way I used to mix pre PT.

But working this way also depends on the bands availability, this way the bands cant come for a day or so and approve ALL songs, the have to come, approve one song, go away, come back approve another etc etc.. I dont have much chill out area here, perhaps its time to get a playstation!

'Tis the season to mix!

I can try the OTHER way (full outboard - Neve / fatso / Helios) next and report back what was better about it.


Old 5th November 2002
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
RSMITH123's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Hey Jules...BTW,
I was visiting your site and have to ask. Have you done a Maiden project or were they/him just hanging out? I used to be a huge Maiden Freak.
Old 5th November 2002
  #15
Lives for gear
 
bassmac's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
When you guys mix with analog hardware... Do you process your tracks individually, (like hardware AudioSuite) or, do you calculate the delay of your boxes, insert them like a plugin (along with Time Adjuster), and bounce/print your mix in real time with all the boxes hooked up?

Old 5th November 2002
  #16
Paul DiAnno came in for a day, thats a photo of my assistant with him.

I mix in analog

out of PT - via outboard - into a 16 into 2 analog summing device.

Old 5th November 2002
  #17
Lives for gear
 
subspace's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Jules, what's the problem? Just set all your analog outboard to where it sounds good and then jump back and forth between the different songs in PT. If you need different settings, just buy another unit. Oh, and change your name to Julian Lord Standen...
Old 5th November 2002
  #18
Julian Lord Pond Bugs
Old 5th November 2002
  #19
" If you need different settings, just buy another unit. "

Bit hard to double or tripple up on the old vintage outboard!

Nice daydream though!

heh
Old 5th November 2002
  #20
FX smörgåsbord user
 
Charles Dye's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
"Bit hard to double up on the vintage outboard!"


CLordA actually does this nonetheless. Canyoubeleiveit?
Old 5th November 2002
  #21
Lives for gear
 
subspace's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Yes, his mix interview is perhaps the closest thing I've ever seen to an engineer saying"...but this one goes to eleven!"
Leaving all your outboard set the same for not only every song, but every band? cripes...
Old 5th November 2002
  #22
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
I actually do both. I make copies of the tracks I want to process and shift those according to how many samples are shifted(for both analog and digital). I tend to track the processing for recall purposes. When I do mults and splits I just assign multiple outputs to the track and record the returns. This can of course transform a 64 track session into a 96 track session in a hurry, but that's why I have an HD system for.

I like to hear the processing I am doing in analog in real time so I tend to work in this matter. Soon i will have a SBM-2(summing mixer which is getting rave reviews by the way. Everyone says it sounds much bigger than the Dangerous Box) to sum my main tracks back together before 2 buss compression and EQ.




Quote:
Originally posted by bassmac
When you guys mix with analog hardware... Do you process your tracks individually, (like hardware AudioSuite) or, do you calculate the delay of your boxes, insert them like a plugin (along with Time Adjuster), and bounce/print your mix in real time with all the boxes hooked up?

Old 5th November 2002
  #23
I'm kind of a fan of 'factory production' techniques..

Wheel em in - wheel em out!

heh
Old 6th November 2002
  #24
FX smörgåsbord user
 
Charles Dye's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by subspace
Yes, his mix interview is perhaps the closest thing I've ever seen to an engineer saying"...but this one goes to eleven!"
grggt rollz heh grggt
Old 6th November 2002
  #25
Lives for gear
 
groundcontrol's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Jules, a Playstation or X-Box is NOT an optional piece of equipment in a recording studio! That goes also for an italian espresso machine but at least you have that covered... tut

Also, since when has the band anything to say about the mixes of their song!?!? Come'on, don't be a sissy tell em like it is!

Bassmac, I make copies of the concerned tracks on other playlists and advance them to compensate for the latency. This way I can run the outboard "live" in the mix 'cause I'm often tweaking the settings a bit right up 'til the end. I "archive" those tracks when the mix is done by re-recording them back in the DAW. That goes for mults also. Usually the assistant does it after doing the stems, while taking the recall notes.
Old 6th November 2002
  #26
I did this and had the audio returning from the outboard routed to tracks stitting in 'record input'

Just record it when you are satisfied with the mix.

I did find level management a PITA between my outboard & the return trip to interfaces.. but then I am kind dumb... and hadn't at that time disicovered the magical - 14 calibration that + 4 outboard gear likes so much.

Old 7th November 2002
  #27
Lives for gear
 
Curve Dominant's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Can a newbie chime in on this subject? Yes? Thanks! OK...

I like to track to PT through outboard gear...compression/limiting > mic pre or vice-versa depending on what I'm recording.

But once my audio is in PT...fughettaboutit: it stays in PT, in digital. No more analog. Plugins > mix.

Prediction:

Five years from now (or less), mixing out from PT to analog gear will be passé.

Why contaminate your de-luvely digital audio with analog disease?

OK! SORRY! That's a bit provocative.

I've already gotten one yellow card from the ref; don't want another because that's a red card and then I'm booted off the field.

But I stand by that.
Old 7th November 2002
  #28
Lives for gear
 
blackcatdigi's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Curve Dominant

I like to track to PT through outboard gear...compression/limiting > mic pre or vice-versa depending on what I'm recording.

But once my audio is in PT...fughettaboutit: it stays in PT, in digital. No more analog. Plugins > mix.

Prediction:

Five years from now (or less), mixing out from PT to analog gear will be passé.

Why contaminate your de-luvely digital audio with analog disease?

OK! SORRY! That's a bit provocative.

I've already gotten one yellow card from the ref; don't want another because that's a red card and then I'm booted off the field.

But I stand by that.
Hi Eric.

Your comments are indeed inflammatory... Sounds like DUC fluff. I let the comment on not understanding why anyone would mix on an analog console slide, but I've got to address a few things on this one...

First, I understand where you're coming from. Great work can be done in the box. I've done some pretty decent stuff that way myself, as have countless others. I know a lot of folks who work this way, exclusively, and get great results. No one is disputing this.

However, after extensive testing, we came to the conclusion that we do much better work, much faster, by bussing audio out of the box, mixing thru our console, inserting h/w outboard and outboard fx. In fact, I've (personally) come full circle on this.

Our Reasoning:

1. We've yet to hear a plugin that can compete with high-end outboard. And we (pretty much) have them all. Not to mention that you can just grab a knob and tweak. Control surface you say? Tried 'em... We dumped the expanded Pro Control. (I still miss Vegas mode!)

2. Small changes make (relatively) drastic differences in a mix when working inside the box. A +/- .5dB change should NOT collapse a mix. Small changes make appropriately small differences when working hybrid, as it should be.

3. Running mixes flat through our console sounds better than PT's MF/Mix Bus. Period. (I'm talking about a serious analog console, not Mackies and Ghosts.) Lot's of serious folks have come to the same conclusion, hence Chris Muth's D2B, IC's summing device, etc.

4. We can get a mix up faster, and then simply go to the next song, basic mix intact. (The ability to do this in PT6 will be a major improvement... Something I've wished for, for a long time.) When mixing in the box, it took a lot of documentation and time to setup the next song the same as the last. Now I just pull up the next session and roll.

Again, not to harp on you, but I am/was a huge proponent of in-the-box work, until I personally heard the difference in quality, and experienced the difference (in speed) performing multiple mixs. If you work by yourself, on your own dime, you may have infinite time to putz around with this stuff. However, when I've got clients on the couch, spending their money and watching the clock, speed matters. I can't take forever saving PI settings, jotting down routing, inserts, auxs, etc. then spending an hour rebuilding a 'virtual' console. Heck, I even began to feel guilty charging people for this particular flaw in the system, but I sure as hell wasn't going to go through that PITA for free! HD + PT6 may change our minds on some of these points, but it ain't here today, so its a mute point.

Unless you have tested all this yourself, and proven your theories to be factual, you are simply hypothesizing.

Of course, YMMV.
Old 8th November 2002
  #29
Lives for gear
 
Curve Dominant's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I know, Casey, I admittedly went a bit overboard with that one. The tongue-in-cheekness didn't get across well.

A better wording of my point may have been: It would be great if we didn't HAVE to go outside the box at all.

And yes, our business models are quite different. There is no economic rationale or viability for me to own a (fill in the name of your favorite "serious" analog console here_______). I remember watching the crane loading a $.25million Neve desk into the second-story bay window at Sigma Sound. It was quite a large crane, and probably wouldn't fit down the little 17th-century cobblestone side street my studio faces. The trash collectors can barely get down my street without ripping a flowerbox off my downstairs neighbor's window sill.

Digital consoles, on the otherhand...have you found any of those to your satisfaction? A commercial house near my crib is using the Yamaha O2R (don't bother, groundcontrol, I've got the suit on) with PT - their mixes sound awfully nice. Maybe it's their ears.
Old 8th November 2002
  #30
Lives for gear
 
C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Curve Dominant
Why contaminate your de-luvely digital audio with analog disease?


because in some cases in sounds good or even better ?

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 70 views: 11972
Avatar for OTRM
OTRM 5th April 2021
replies: 295 views: 72347
Avatar for anguswoodhead
anguswoodhead 26th March 2013
replies: 93 views: 22663
Avatar for coso
coso 17th April 2021
replies: 1296 views: 178477
Avatar for heraldo_jones
heraldo_jones 1st February 2016

Forum Jump
Forum Jump