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Launch of Pono
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1501
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve ➡️
Something just struck me..

Maybe Carmen is being willfully ignorant because he can't understand the science?
You don't know me...
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1502
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia ➡️
But we do fully understand the combustion engine.
I don't think we fully understand anything.
The combustion engine evolves year on year in Formula One. each year it's faster, or less likely to break, or uses less fuel.
We might understand 44.1khz, but I highly doubt we completely and utterly understand the human ear and how the brain reacts to aural stimulation. We practically know very little about the brain actually. Which is the organ we rely on to process digital music.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1503
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chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC ➡️
You don't know me...
Agreed.
Once you start attacking the person you stop putting forward a valid alternative view.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1504
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia ➡️
But you're arguing in favor of admitting we know nothing and everything is subjective.

That kind of thinking and a bag of weed didn't build this industrialized world.
No I am not. My statement of goalposts is no less valid than your 'we know everything about the combustion engine'. Two extreme sides of the same coin.

I sort of take offence at your notion of 'a bag of weed' and bull**** like that. If you give a ****.

What built this industrial world is people moving with change and staying open to new learnings, not grappling onto the already found. Smoke your own weed, mate.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1505
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso ➡️
I don't think we fully understand anything.
The combustion engine evolves year on year in Formula One. each year it's faster, or less likely to break, or uses less fuel.
We might understand 44.1khz, but I highly doubt we completely and utterly understand the human ear and how the brain reacts to aural stimulation. We practically know very little about the brain actually. Which is the organ we rely on to process digital music.
Yep.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1506
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Karloff70's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso ➡️
I don't think we fully understand anything.
Thank you. Not just me then.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1507
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean M Robinson ➡️
But that's not the first iteration of digital audio, only the first affordable consumer format.
Yes, that was the point I already made and was repeating. I said the first digital retail format we settled on. Do I have to restate it with every single word repeated to reiterate the point?
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1508
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC ➡️
I never said belief trumps knowledge.
I said Einstein said knowledge is limited and imagination is not.
What percentage of the world believes in God?
But, there is no scientific proof of God!
The entire world is deluded!
Is this news to you?
How frustrating life must be for you without proof of everything....
Having faith in nothing is still having faith.
But as a wise man once said, "you gotta serve somebody".
Carmen, now you are just being a fool.. a jester.

One can believe or not believe in things that cannot be proven. That is different. One is free to believe in God or not. There is, so far, no proof in the existence of God, and no proof God doesn't exist. It's belief, not science.

Your belief about audio, on the other hand, goes against the science of the technology... you are trying to trump science with belief. Doesn't work that way.

Well... it DOES work that way, but there is a term for those people. Suckers. Fools. Audiophiles.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1509
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq ➡️
sorry but unless you can connect it a reason why he would lie
You keep saying 'lie', which is a highly pejorative term and designed to be such in the way you keep using it.
I'll state as clearly and simply as I can.
I did NOT call the guy a liar. I pointed out a clear conflict of interest. A clear conflict of interest.
I also pointed out how hard I found it to accept fact from someone on the same site that they stated highly subjective opinion as fact that I find to be biased.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1510
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC ➡️
You don't know me...
It's the only explanation I can come up with Carmen.

If you actually read the science and understood it we would have a very different conversation. You might still believe there is something not measurable.. you might believe there is something we don't know. But you wouldn't believe there is more "resolution" in higher sample rate audio. That shows you simply don't understand how it works.

The video posted above actually explains it quite well... so even if you don't feel like reading, just watch it.

I don't know what else to make of it... either you are too lazy to read it, or you tried to read it and you don't understand. There can be no other choice, because if you understood, you would understand that it's mathematically IMPOSSIBLE for there to be "more detail" in higher sample rate audio.

Which is it? Can I help by providing you with some reading?
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1511
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve ➡️
Carmen, now you are just being a fool.. a jester.

One can believe or not believe in things that cannot be proven. That is different. One is free to believe in God or not. There is, so far, no proof in the existence of God, and no proof God doesn't exist. It's belief, not science.

Your belief about audio, on the other hand, goes against the science of the technology... you are trying to trump science with belief. Doesn't work that way.

Well... it DOES work that way, but there is a term for those people. Suckers. Fools. Audiophiles.
Ahhh... Here comes the name calling.
You know how that makes you look, right?
I have beliefs about SUBJECTIVE HEARING AND THE HUMAN MIND.
Which you have repeatedly proved, because, dude, you can't hear me at all.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1512
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso ➡️
Agreed.
Once you start attacking the person you stop putting forward a valid alternative view.
Are you serious? Your entire argument against the XIPH guy is... an attack on him. As joe said.. it was an ad hominem attack.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1513
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
People prefer the sound of Vinyl to CD. People prefer the sound of flawed analog synthesizers to accurate digital equivalents.
So it goes both ways. We do not fully understand the way the mind processes audio. And some lower resolution formats may be perceived as better for some things, while higher resolutions are better for others.
As each person, each ear and each acoustic listening environment is unique, it's arguably folly to say we know what people need.
In the end, the bottom line is packaging super large digital files at a premium price point is unlikely to attract the vast majority of our audience away from cheaper, more convenient formats.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1514
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC ➡️
Ahhh... Here comes the name calling.
You know how that makes you look, right?
Again, agreed.
I don't think I agree with Carmen, but attacking Carmen personally is a failure in prosecuting the alternative point of view.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1515
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC ➡️
Ahhh... Here comes the name calling.
You know how that makes you look, right?
I have beliefs about SUBJECTIVE HEARING AND THE HUMAN MIND.
Which you have repeatedly proved, because, dude, you can't hear me at all.
Carmen, which is it? <DELETED BY MODERATOR>

There can be no other choice that I can see.

If you understood, you wouldn't ever suggest there is more detail in higher sample rate audio. That is scientifically impossible.

I'll be honest with you... it took me a lot of reading, over and over, until I understood it. I actually foolishly argued with people who knew better, until one day it all made sense. Reading and re-reading it over and over, then watching people demonstrate like the XIPH guy did in the video, really did the trick for me.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1516
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Karloff70's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve ➡️
There can be no other choice that I can see.
That says more about you than him. Accidentally, but definitely.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1517
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Traintrack ➡️
I can hear the difference on the streaming samples on HDTracks. You cannot?
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1518
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso ➡️
People prefer the sound of Vinyl to CD. People prefer the sound of flawed analog synthesizers to accurate digital equivalents.
So it goes both ways. We do not fully understand the way the mind processes audio. And some lower resolution formats may be perceived as better for some things, while higher resolutions are better for others.
As each person, each ear and each acoustic listening environment is unique, it's arguably folly to say we know what people need.
In the end, the bottom line is packaging super large digital files at a premium price point is unlikely to attract the vast majority of our audience away from cheaper, more convenient formats.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1519
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso ➡️
People prefer the sound of Vinyl to CD. People prefer the sound of flawed analog synthesizers to accurate digital equivalents.
So it goes both ways. We do not fully understand the way the mind processes audio. And some lower resolution formats may be perceived as better for some things, while higher resolutions are better for others.
.
All of this is perfectly explained by a/b/x testing.

Maybe after one does the test, they will still prefer vinyl. Maybe not.

In any case, it's only by a/b/x testing that we can test our ability to truly hear the difference and not be fooled by our own expectation bias.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1520
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve ➡️
All of this is perfectly explained by a/b/x testing.

Maybe after one does the test, they will still prefer vinyl. Maybe not.

In any case, it's only by a/b/x testing that we can test our ability to truly hear the difference and not be fooled by our own expectation bias.
The Problem with A-B'ing and Why Neil Young is Right about Sound Quality. | Tape Op - the Creative Music Recording Magazine
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1521
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve ➡️
All of this is perfectly explained by a/b/x testing.

Maybe after one does the test, they will still prefer vinyl. Maybe not.

In any case, it's only by a/b/x testing that we can test our ability to truly hear the difference and not be fooled by our own expectation bias.
You need a/b/x to hear that there is a difference between CD and vinyl??
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1522
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 ➡️
You need a/b/x to hear that there is a difference between CD and vinyl??
I don't... but to be honest, one MIGHT find it a useful way to test their belief about their preference.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1523
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve ➡️
I don't... but to be honest, one MIGHT find it a useful way to test their belief about their preference.
Useful way to waste your time more like. Like staring intently at the sky for half an hour to make sure it's still blue.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1524
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 ➡️
Useful way to waste your time more like. Like staring intently at the sky for half an hour to make sure it's still blue.
The sky... actually ISN'T blue. It just appears that way.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1525
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso ➡️
I don't think we fully understand anything.
The combustion engine evolves year on year in Formula One. each year it's faster, or less likely to break, or uses less fuel.
Yes. But we evolve the combustion engine. It doesn't evolve itself and we just admire it.

Digital audio doesn't get better without the people who designed it making it that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso ➡️
We might understand 44.1khz, but I highly doubt we completely and utterly understand the human ear and how the brain reacts to aural stimulation. We practically know very little about the brain actually. Which is the organ we rely on to process digital music.
We don't understand the human ear. Or any part of the human body. But we understand digital audio because we created it.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1526
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 ➡️
No I am not. My statement of goalposts is no less valid than your 'we know everything about the combustion engine'. Two extreme sides of the same coin.

I sort of take offence at your notion of 'a bag of weed' and bull**** like that. If you give a ****.

What built this industrial world is people moving with change and staying open to new learnings, not grappling onto the already found. Smoke your own weed, mate.
It's obvious by the tone of your post that you didn't understand mine.

My apologies.

My point was simply that you have to believe in something. Even if we figure out it's wrong later. Everything can't be unknown.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1527
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia ➡️
It's obvious by the tone of your post that you didn't understand mine.

My apologies.

My point was simply that you have to believe in something. Even if we figure out it's wrong later. Everything can't be unknown.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1528
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso ➡️

We do not fully understand the way the mind processes audio. And some lower resolution formats may be perceived as better for some things, while higher resolutions are better for others.
If your argument is that lower resolutions may be more pleasing for certain situations (lo fi) no one is arguing that.

But if 44.1 is no better or worse than 192, there's no subjective choice to make.

It's not vanilla vs chocolate. It's vanilla vs vanilla.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1529
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 ➡️
You need a/b/x to hear that there is a difference between CD and vinyl??
Is this an admission of defeat?

Because we all agree, You don't need an a/b/x test to tell the difference.

It's night and day.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #1530
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia ➡️
If your argument is that lower resolutions may be more pleasing for certain situations (lo fi) no one is arguing that.

But if 44.1 is no better or worse than 192, there's no subjective choice to make.

It's not vanilla vs chocolate. It's vanilla vs vanilla.
I have to ask, if 44.1 is no better or worse than 192, and it's a scientific fact, why does any audio equipment manufacturer make equipment that goes over 44.1, whether it's to record or playback audio?
Isn't 24/48 the standard in film?
Are these manufacturers all wrong?
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